On Sun, 01 Sep 2013 13:29:56 GMT, Baz wrote:

I went to the car boot market this morning to get me spring cabbage plants
and bought a box of 30ish 1 and 2 pint kilner jars for £3.50. Most of the
seals are nacked, but no problem I can make some.
I am going to do some beetroot, onions, tomatoes and some cucumbers
(gerkins?).
That will take 10 jars maximum.
What else can I store in them? My auntie makes all the jam and marmalade
until such times when she can't anymore.

I can give them away, and I will, no problem, but I like the idea of
preserving what I can. If I give them away they will be full, probably of
beetroot or onions. Maybe tomatoes, seeing as how they have started to
ripen by the minute.

Baz

On our allotment site some years ago we had a half Italian lady (other
half British... don't ask which half). She used to plant the whole
allotment with plum tomatoes which she bottled in jars by the dozen,
to share with family. Then along came the blight, year after year and
she gave up the allotment. Eggs and baskets comes to mind! It was bad
enough losing half a dozen plants, let alone an allotment-full!


Pam in Bristol

Gary Woods wrote in
:

Baz wrote:

I am going to do some beetroot, onions, tomatoes and some cucumbers
(gerkins?).

I may have missed mention of botulism; surely everybody knows that
non-acid foods need the temperature of a pressure canner to be sure?
I had to dig out my EnglishAmerican reference to find out that we
call them "Mason jars," after the dominant (but surely not only)
manufacturer. What are use are similar to the pictures of Kilner jars,
with a separate ring (usually removed after the contents cool) and lid
with rubber seal, which is not to be re-used.


One other suggestion. Go round the canned and/or bottled fruit and
veg shelves of a large supermarket or two (maybe a Lidl or Aldi too,
as they often have different ranges to the usual). See what they
have available. If you are growing similar things, or will be next
year, you could try the same thing if anything appeals to you.

I have done that. My favourite is beans, whole or in a pod, canned and
sweetened. I have been told in this group that it has the potential to
harbour nasty bugs. My great aunt(who lives with us and is chief cook)
used to make Kilner jars full of them. Unfortunatly now in her 80's
she can't remember how. She is still the best cook I know.

I just clipped the above from within this discussion.

So we can't bottle beans safely?
I want to be clear on this.

Thanks
Baz

In article ,
says...

Baz wrote:

I am going to do some beetroot, onions, tomatoes and some cucumbers
(gerkins?).

I may have missed mention of botulism; surely everybody knows that non-acid
foods need the temperature of a pressure canner to be sure?

Nope, nobody in the UK knows that. Here, Kilner jars of fruit/veg are
just filled, closed and cooked in a boiling water pan without pressure.

What's more, when we've filled jars with home made jam and put the
lid on, that's it done; we don't boil them at all.

I know that transpondians regard these as dicing-with-death pagan
practices, but we've always done it this way and not died of botulism.

Janet

In article ,
Janet wrote:
In article ,
says...
Baz wrote:

I am going to do some beetroot, onions, tomatoes and some cucumbers
(gerkins?).

I may have missed mention of botulism; surely everybody knows that non-acid
foods need the temperature of a pressure canner to be sure?

Nope, nobody in the UK knows that. Here, Kilner jars of fruit/veg are
just filled, closed and cooked in a boiling water pan without pressure.

That is wrong. If you look at most older books, you will see that
the recommendation is exactly as Gary said. Also, some people living
in the UK have previously lived at moderate altitudes, which makes
the requirement more important.

What's more, when we've filled jars with home made jam and put the
lid on, that's it done; we don't boil them at all.

You make entirely non-acid jam? Please post the recipe for our
amusement (if not delectation) :-)

I know that transpondians regard these as dicing-with-death pagan
practices, but we've always done it this way and not died of botulism.

The recommendation always was slightly overstated, because the main
danger comes from high-protein foods. I would very, VERY strongly
advise people not to store such things in that way without the
extra pressure or without checking the seal when using them.

Also, it really only matters for foods that are only lightly cooked
after being removed from the jar. Extended cooking will destroy
the botulinism toxin.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 02/09/2013 17:47, Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,
Janet wrote:
In article ,
says...
Baz wrote:

I am going to do some beetroot, onions, tomatoes and some cucumbers
(gerkins?).

I may have missed mention of botulism; surely everybody knows that non-acid
foods need the temperature of a pressure canner to be sure?

Nope, nobody in the UK knows that. Here, Kilner jars of fruit/veg are
just filled, closed and cooked in a boiling water pan without pressure.

That is wrong. If you look at most older books, you will see that
the recommendation is exactly as Gary said. Also, some people living
in the UK have previously lived at moderate altitudes, which makes
the requirement more important.

What's more, when we've filled jars with home made jam and put the
lid on, that's it done; we don't boil them at all.

You make entirely non-acid jam? Please post the recipe for our
amusement (if not delectation) :-)

I know that transpondians regard these as dicing-with-death pagan
practices, but we've always done it this way and not died of botulism.

The recommendation always was slightly overstated, because the main
danger comes from high-protein foods. I would very, VERY strongly
advise people not to store such things in that way without the
extra pressure or without checking the seal when using them.

Also, it really only matters for foods that are only lightly cooked
after being removed from the jar. Extended cooking will destroy
the botulinism toxin.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

This is the abstract from "Thermal Inactivation of Type E Botulinum
Toxin": See:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC546888/ where there are
several other refs.

"The theoretical required cooking times for inactivation of type E
Clostridium botulinum toxin (5,000 ld50 mouse units per 0.5 ml) in
haddock fillets of various sizes were calculated by graphical
integration of the toxin inactivation rate and heat penetration data.
The results indicated that normal cooking procedures should suffice to
inactivate this amount of toxin. This conclusion was substantiated by
the following additional experimental observations which revealed that
the original experiments had been conducted under conservative
conditions. First, maximal heat stability of the toxin was found to
occur at about pH 5.5, with decreasing resistance upon increasing pH.
The theoretical cooking times were based on destruction of the toxin at
pH 6.7. The pH of radio-pasteurized inoculated haddock, when toxin
production had occurred, was on the alkaline side, at which condition
the toxin is heat-labile. Second, when spoilage was discernible in
radio-pasteurized inoculated haddock, the toxin titer was low, about 50
ld50 mouse units per 0.5 ml. Third, the toxin was adequately inactivated
in toxic fillets after deep-fat frying for 3 min at 375 F (190.6 C) or
after pan frying for 5 min per side at 400 F (204.4 C)."

(Full paper at
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...00232-0039.pdf)

--

Jeff

In article ,
says...

In article ,
Janet wrote:
In article ,
says...
Baz wrote:

I am going to do some beetroot, onions, tomatoes and some cucumbers
(gerkins?).

I may have missed mention of botulism; surely everybody knows that non-acid
foods need the temperature of a pressure canner to be sure?

Nope, nobody in the UK knows that. Here, Kilner jars of fruit/veg are
just filled, closed and cooked in a boiling water pan without pressure.

That is wrong.

It's the way my family did it for years. Endless bottled plums were a
winter feature of childhood.


If you look at most older books, you will see that
the recommendation is exactly as Gary said. Also, some people living
in the UK have previously lived at moderate altitudes, which makes
the requirement more important.

why? I don't follow why where they previously lived, makes any
difference later?

What's more, when we've filled jars with home made jam and put the
lid on, that's it done; we don't boil them at all.

You make entirely non-acid jam? Please post the recipe for our
amusement (if not delectation) :-)

This was a mere poke at US jam makers, who having made jam and
jarred it, then pressure can it.

The recommendation always was slightly overstated, because the main
danger comes from high-protein foods. I would very, VERY strongly
advise people not to store such things in that way without the
extra pressure or without checking the seal when using them.

You check the seal the day after sealing the jars when they are cold;
if it hasn't taken you either use the contents or reseal and boil again.
And you always, always test the airtight vaccuum seal before opening and
using the jar to use.

Janet

In article ,
Janet wrote:

I am going to do some beetroot, onions, tomatoes and some cucumbers
(gerkins?).

I may have missed mention of botulism; surely everybody knows that non-acid
foods need the temperature of a pressure canner to be sure?

Nope, nobody in the UK knows that. Here, Kilner jars of fruit/veg are
just filled, closed and cooked in a boiling water pan without pressure.

That is wrong.

It's the way my family did it for years. Endless bottled plums were a
winter feature of childhood.

You do seem to have trouble with the qualification "non-acid",
don't you? :-) Plums most definitely do NOT count! The only
fruit commonly eaten in the UK that do that I can think of are
bananas and avocados. Even ripe strawberries have a fair amount
of acid.

If you look at most older books, you will see that
the recommendation is exactly as Gary said. Also, some people living
in the UK have previously lived at moderate altitudes, which makes
the requirement more important.

why? I don't follow why where they previously lived, makes any
difference later?

Because the boiling point is lower at altitude.

What's more, when we've filled jars with home made jam and put the
lid on, that's it done; we don't boil them at all.

You make entirely non-acid jam? Please post the recipe for our
amusement (if not delectation) :-)

This was a mere poke at US jam makers, who having made jam and
jarred it, then pressure can it.

Well, yes, but Gary is not a USA marketdroid.

The recommendation always was slightly overstated, because the main
danger comes from high-protein foods. I would very, VERY strongly
advise people not to store such things in that way without the
extra pressure or without checking the seal when using them.

You check the seal the day after sealing the jars when they are cold;
if it hasn't taken you either use the contents or reseal and boil again.
And you always, always test the airtight vaccuum seal before opening and
using the jar to use.

The danger with high-protein, non-acid foods, such as fish and meat
is that mere boiling point is not enough to destroy Clostridium
botulinum spores. If one then germinates, the toxin will build
up, and the sealed food can then be lethal. Yes, it happens.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
says...

In article ,
Janet wrote:

I am going to do some beetroot, onions, tomatoes and some cucumbers
(gerkins?).

I may have missed mention of botulism; surely everybody knows that non-acid
foods need the temperature of a pressure canner to be sure?

Nope, nobody in the UK knows that. Here, Kilner jars of fruit/veg are
just filled, closed and cooked in a boiling water pan without pressure.

That is wrong.

It's the way my family did it for years. Endless bottled plums were a
winter feature of childhood.

You do seem to have trouble with the qualification "non-acid",
don't you? :-) Plums most definitely do NOT count! The only
fruit commonly eaten in the UK that do that I can think of are
bananas and avocados. Even ripe strawberries have a fair amount
of acid.

If you look at most older books, you will see that
the recommendation is exactly as Gary said. Also, some people living
in the UK have previously lived at moderate altitudes, which makes
the requirement more important.

why? I don't follow why where they previously lived, makes any
difference later?

Because the boiling point is lower at altitude.

You seem to have a problem with the term "previously" :-=)
You're hardly living at altitude now, nor is Baz, the person about to
deploy Kilner jars in the English flatlands.

Janet.

On 02/09/2013 15:44, Martin wrote:
On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 12:16:38 +0100, David Hill
wrote:


I would use then judiciously, I remember my parent laughing that they
bottled new potatoes, thought they would be lovely for Christmas. After
a couple of months there we several very loud explosions, on
investigation the potatoes has fermented and exploded. Took them a while
to clean up the mess. Incidentally I remember mum preserving rings of
apples by salting and drying, when soaked they made very acceptable
apple pies! Mind you this was during the war, when she also preserved
runner beans in a similar fashion.

Remember, if you are going to try this, the salt then was different to
the bulk of what you get today, it was either rock salt or sea salt
without the additives that we now have.

Which additives?

http://www.british-salt.co.uk/Produc...iedVacuum.aspx


Anti caking agent Sodium Ferrocyanide

On 02/09/13 16:37, Gary Woods wrote:
Baz wrote:

I am going to do some beetroot, onions, tomatoes and some cucumbers
(gerkins?).

I may have missed mention of botulism; surely everybody knows that non-acid
foods need the temperature of a pressure canner to be sure?

I'm not sure that's sufficient, but I haven't checked either way.

Several decades ago several people were poisoned by botulism
in canned salmon from a major manufacturer. I remember this
since at the end of the week it was in the news my cousin
married one of the daughters of the MD of the company.
Yes, they did refer to it in the speeches

In article ,
Janet wrote:

I am going to do some beetroot, onions, tomatoes and some cucumbers
(gerkins?).

I may have missed mention of botulism; surely everybody knows that non-acid
foods need the temperature of a pressure canner to be sure?

Nope, nobody in the UK knows that. Here, Kilner jars of fruit/veg are
just filled, closed and cooked in a boiling water pan without pressure.

That is wrong.

It's the way my family did it for years. Endless bottled plums were a
winter feature of childhood.

You do seem to have trouble with the qualification "non-acid",
don't you? :-) Plums most definitely do NOT count! The only
fruit commonly eaten in the UK that do that I can think of are
bananas and avocados. Even ripe strawberries have a fair amount
of acid.

If you look at most older books, you will see that
the recommendation is exactly as Gary said. Also, some people living
in the UK have previously lived at moderate altitudes, which makes
the requirement more important.

why? I don't follow why where they previously lived, makes any
difference later?

Because the boiling point is lower at altitude.

You seem to have a problem with the term "previously" :-=)
You're hardly living at altitude now, nor is Baz, the person about to
deploy Kilner jars in the English flatlands.

Not at all. I said what I meant and I meant what I said. If you
choose to misinterpret it, that's your problem. Quite a lot of
people who used to live where it was essential continued to do
it after returning to the UK. Your statement that nobody in
the UK knows that and that nobody does that (which is what I
was addressing) was and is just plain wrong.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 02/09/2013 19:02, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 02/09/13 16:37, Gary Woods wrote:
Baz wrote:

I am going to do some beetroot, onions, tomatoes and some cucumbers
(gerkins?).

I may have missed mention of botulism; surely everybody knows that non-acid
foods need the temperature of a pressure canner to be sure?

I'm not sure that's sufficient, but I haven't checked either way.

Several decades ago several people were poisoned by botulism
in canned salmon from a major manufacturer. I remember this
since at the end of the week it was in the news my cousin
married one of the daughters of the MD of the company.
Yes, they did refer to it in the speeches

IIRC, this was because the canning seal failed. After heating, the cans
were cooled with water which contained C.botulinum (or its spores).
There were pinholes in the seal, and when the steam in the can
condensed, the vacuum drew the contaminated water into the can.

--

Jeff

In article ,
says...

I would use then judiciously, I remember my parent laughing that they
bottled new potatoes, thought they would be lovely for Christmas. After
a couple of months there we several very loud explosions, on
investigation the potatoes has fermented and exploded. Took them a while
to clean up the mess. Incidentally I remember mum preserving rings of
apples by salting and drying, when soaked they made very acceptable
apple pies! Mind you this was during the war, when she also preserved
runner beans in a similar fashion.

Remember, if you are going to try this, the salt then was different to
the bulk of what you get today, it was either rock salt or sea salt
without the additives that we now have.

And sold in large brick size blocks that had to be
grated down, together with finger nails and bits of
skin!

--
Roger T

700 ft up in Mid-Wales

On 02/09/2013 22:18, Martin wrote:
On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 19:00:43 +0100, David Hill
wrote:

On 02/09/2013 15:44, Martin wrote:
On Mon, 02 Sep 2013 12:16:38 +0100, David Hill
wrote:


I would use then judiciously, I remember my parent laughing that they
bottled new potatoes, thought they would be lovely for Christmas. After
a couple of months there we several very loud explosions, on
investigation the potatoes has fermented and exploded. Took them a while
to clean up the mess. Incidentally I remember mum preserving rings of
apples by salting and drying, when soaked they made very acceptable
apple pies! Mind you this was during the war, when she also preserved
runner beans in a similar fashion.

Remember, if you are going to try this, the salt then was different to
the bulk of what you get today, it was either rock salt or sea salt
without the additives that we now have.

Which additives?

http://www.british-salt.co.uk/Produc...iedVacuum.aspx


Anti caking agent Sodium Ferrocyanide

in very tiny and safe amounts

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=166139

Possibly, but still causes the beans go slimy

On 01/09/2013 14:29, Baz wrote:
I went to the car boot market this morning to get me spring cabbage plants
and bought a box of 30ish 1 and 2 pint kilner jars for £3.50. Most of the
seals are nacked, but no problem I can make some.
I am going to do some beetroot, onions, tomatoes and some cucumbers
(gerkins?).
That will take 10 jars maximum.
What else can I store in them? My auntie makes all the jam and marmalade
until such times when she can't anymore.

I can give them away, and I will, no problem, but I like the idea of
preserving what I can. If I give them away they will be full, probably of
beetroot or onions. Maybe tomatoes, seeing as how they have started to
ripen by the minute.

Baz
It may be worth visiting this website
http://www.kilnerjar.co.uk/