In article ,
Malcolm wrote:


The danger with high-protein, non-acid foods, such as fish and meat
is that mere boiling point is not enough to destroy Clostridium
botulinum spores. If one then germinates, the toxin will build
up, and the sealed food can then be lethal. Yes, it happens.

This is scaremongering, based on nothing at all, it would seem.

According to the NHS website, there were just 33 recorded cases of
food-borne botulism in England and Wales in the 30 years from 1980 and
2010, and 26 of those were linked to a single outbreak in 1989 caused by
contaminated hazelnut yoghurt.

Sigh. And just how many people in the UK bottle meat, fish and
other such high-protein, non-acid foods in Kilner jars? Almost
everyone has better sense than to do that, because there are much
better ways.

Bottling low-protein, acid foods such as almost all fruit is and
never has been a problem and accounts for the VAST majority of
such bottling in the UK. The remainder is almost always low-protein,
non-acid foods such as vegetables.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Malcolm" wrote in message ...


In article , Nick Maclaren
writes
In article ,
Malcolm wrote:


The danger with high-protein, non-acid foods, such as fish and meat
is that mere boiling point is not enough to destroy Clostridium
botulinum spores. If one then germinates, the toxin will build
up, and the sealed food can then be lethal. Yes, it happens.

This is scaremongering, based on nothing at all, it would seem.

According to the NHS website, there were just 33 recorded cases of
food-borne botulism in England and Wales in the 30 years from 1980 and
2010, and 26 of those were linked to a single outbreak in 1989 caused by
contaminated hazelnut yoghurt.

Sigh. And just how many people in the UK bottle meat, fish and
other such high-protein, non-acid foods in Kilner jars? Almost
everyone has better sense than to do that, because there are much
better ways.

Clearly not, judging by this thread. I also note the absence of any
evidence to back up your blatant scaremongering about botulism,
including "it happens", which I note you have snipped, presumably so you
can avoid having to respond to my request to demonstrate that it
referred to Kilner jars.

Bottling low-protein, acid foods such as almost all fruit is and
never has been a problem and accounts for the VAST majority of
such bottling in the UK. The remainder is almost always low-protein,
non-acid foods such as vegetables.

So why are you wittering on about virtually non-existent botulism? Are
you deliberately trying to scare people for the hell of it? Or was it
based on ignorance of the facts about botulism in the UK?

--
Malcolm

In article ,
Malcolm wrote:

The danger with high-protein, non-acid foods, such as fish and meat
is that mere boiling point is not enough to destroy Clostridium
botulinum spores. If one then germinates, the toxin will build
up, and the sealed food can then be lethal. Yes, it happens.

This is scaremongering, based on nothing at all, it would seem.

According to the NHS website, there were just 33 recorded cases of
food-borne botulism in England and Wales in the 30 years from 1980 and
2010, and 26 of those were linked to a single outbreak in 1989 caused by
contaminated hazelnut yoghurt.

Sigh. And just how many people in the UK bottle meat, fish and
other such high-protein, non-acid foods in Kilner jars? Almost
everyone has better sense than to do that, because there are much
better ways.

Clearly not, judging by this thread. I also note the absence of any
evidence to back up your blatant scaremongering about botulism,
including "it happens", which I note you have snipped, presumably so you
can avoid having to respond to my request to demonstrate that it
referred to Kilner jars.

You really do seem to be being deliberately foolish. I snipped that
paragraph because it was not relevant. I never said that it happens
in the UK, AND THE REASON FOR THAT IS that nobody or almost nobody
bottles the sort of foods where it is likely. It is simply not a
traditional UK mode for the preservation of such foods. We almost
always pickle, cure or otherwise treat such foods, either instead or
as well, and that prevents the issue. But it IS used in some other
countries.

It might have escaped you, but there are many serious risks that do
not cause trouble because people simply avoid the prerequites for
them. To claim that proves they aren't risks when the prerequisites
are present is arrant stupidity, at best. There aren't any people
killed by the UK's populations of crocodiles, for example, but that
doesn't mean that they are safe to swim with.

What I was doing was warning people against bottling HIGH-PROTEIN,
NON-ACID FOODS SUCH AS MEAT AND FISH using only unpressurised boiling
point. If you bother to look up the real scientific and medical
references, you will see why that is.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Try this for an alternative.
Delicious, nutritious and cheap

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/gardening...egetables.html

No exploding jars if done correctly and yes, I have.


Read what it has to say about botulism etc. I have never had any side affects, apart from over eating them ;-)

It is what I will be doing with my gluts over the next few months.

John

Tom Gardner wrote:

Several decades ago several people were poisoned by botulism
in canned salmon from a major manufacturer. I remember this
since at the end of the week it was in the news my cousin
married one of the daughters of the MD of the company.

There was an incident in the U.S. some time ago with botulism and a few
fatalities from canned mushroom soup....the processor had problems with the
apparatus that monitors temperatures (required for commercial processing)
during the canning cycle, and temperatures hadn't been high enough for long
enough.

BTW, I can tomatoes using a pressure canner (5 pounds/15 minutes), not for
safety reasons, but because it takes a LOT less electrical energy to do
than heating a big pot of water. Not to mention how long it takes to boil
a big pot of water on one of those pretty "glass top"
stove....erm...cookers.

--
Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/4 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

In article ,
says...

What I was doing was warning people against bottling HIGH-PROTEIN,
NON-ACID FOODS SUCH AS MEAT AND FISH using only unpressurised boiling
point.

The rest of us, were discussing Baz's plan to bottle garden produce.
Not meat or fish.

Janet

On 2013-09-03 16:13:38 +0000, Gary Woods said:

Tom Gardner wrote:

Several decades ago several people were poisoned by botulism
in canned salmon from a major manufacturer. I remember this
since at the end of the week it was in the news my cousin
married one of the daughters of the MD of the company.

There was an incident in the U.S. some time ago with botulism and a few
fatalities from canned mushroom soup....the processor had problems with the
apparatus that monitors temperatures (required for commercial processing)
during the canning cycle, and temperatures hadn't been high enough for long
enough.

BTW, I can tomatoes using a pressure canner (5 pounds/15 minutes), not for
safety reasons, but because it takes a LOT less electrical energy to do
than heating a big pot of water. Not to mention how long it takes to boil
a big pot of water on one of those pretty "glass top"
stove....erm...cookers.

My grandmother (English, Co. Durham origin) used to talk of a stove,
not a cooker. It was a gas stove, not (to her) a gas cooker. Was that
unusual in UK 60 or so years ago? I really don't know.
--
Sacha

In message , sacha
writes
On 2013-09-03 16:13:38 +0000, Gary Woods said:

Tom Gardner wrote:

Several decades ago several people were poisoned by botulism
in canned salmon from a major manufacturer. I remember this
since at the end of the week it was in the news my cousin
married one of the daughters of the MD of the company.
There was an incident in the U.S. some time ago with botulism and a
few
fatalities from canned mushroom soup....the processor had problems with the
apparatus that monitors temperatures (required for commercial processing)
during the canning cycle, and temperatures hadn't been high enough for long
enough.
BTW, I can tomatoes using a pressure canner (5 pounds/15 minutes),
not for
safety reasons, but because it takes a LOT less electrical energy to do
than heating a big pot of water. Not to mention how long it takes to boil
a big pot of water on one of those pretty "glass top"
stove....erm...cookers.

My grandmother (English, Co. Durham origin) used to talk of a stove,
not a cooker. It was a gas stove, not (to her) a gas cooker. Was that
unusual in UK 60 or so years ago? I really don't know.

No, my mother (Buckinghamshire) too called it a stove. In fact I think
they were marketed as "gas stoves" in those days.

David

--
David Rance writing from Le Mesnil Villement, Calvados, France

In article ,
sacha wrote:
On 2013-09-03 16:13:38 +0000, Gary Woods said:

BTW, I can tomatoes using a pressure canner (5 pounds/15 minutes), not for
safety reasons, but because it takes a LOT less electrical energy to do
than heating a big pot of water. Not to mention how long it takes to boil
a big pot of water on one of those pretty "glass top"
stove....erm...cookers.

My grandmother (English, Co. Durham origin) used to talk of a stove,
not a cooker. It was a gas stove, not (to her) a gas cooker. Was that
unusual in UK 60 or so years ago? I really don't know.

No. I always knew of them as stoves, and came from a different
background.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
Malcolm wrote:

The danger with high-protein, non-acid foods, such as fish and meat
is that mere boiling point is not enough to destroy Clostridium
botulinum spores. If one then germinates, the toxin will build
up, and the sealed food can then be lethal. Yes, it happens.

This is scaremongering, based on nothing at all, it would seem.

According to the NHS website, there were just 33 recorded cases of
food-borne botulism in England and Wales in the 30 years from 1980 and
2010, and 26 of those were linked to a single outbreak in 1989 caused by
contaminated hazelnut yoghurt.

Sigh. And just how many people in the UK bottle meat, fish and
other such high-protein, non-acid foods in Kilner jars? Almost
everyone has better sense than to do that, because there are much
better ways.

Clearly not, judging by this thread. I also note the absence of any
evidence to back up your blatant scaremongering about botulism,
including "it happens", which I note you have snipped, presumably so you
can avoid having to respond to my request to demonstrate that it
referred to Kilner jars.

You really do seem to be being deliberately foolish. I snipped that
paragraph because it was not relevant. I never said that it happens
in the UK,

Oh, what an enormous wriggle we see before us. You most certainly did
not say that it didn't happen in the UK. Go back and read the context of
that remark.

I certainly agree that I did not say that it doesn't happen here.
My paragraph stated above says what I meant to say, and is correct.
Warning people that bottling fruit is safe, but higher temperatures
are needed for some other foods is not scaremongering. Some people
(and I suspect that Baz may be one) have enough nous to be interested
in pushing the boundaries.

Either you desperately need a remedial course in English comprehension
or you are simply trolling. Or both, I suppose.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Baz" wrote in message
...
"Christina Websell" wrote in
:


says...

"Baz" wrote in message
...
I went to the car boot market this morning to get me spring cabbage
plants
and bought a box of 30ish 1 and 2 pint kilner jars for £3.50. Most
of the
seals are nacked, but no problem I can make some.

I'd be very interested to know how to make home-made seals for
Kilner jars
that are safe to keep the contents.

Tina

Why take the risk: proper new ones are easily available.

Janet

I have not found any for imperial jars.

wouldn't dream of it, just interested about Baz's idea of buying
Kilner jars and finding a way to seal them safely without buying the
proper seals.

How does that work, Baz? I'd really like to know.




It works very, very, simply indeed.
You need tools, (a pair of compass and a craft knife) and FOOD SAFE
rubber or neoprene sheet, 2 or 3mm thick.
You use the compass to draw a circle and use the craft knife to cut it
out. You shorten the radius to suit and do the same to create an "O"
ring.
Now that is not difficult is it!
That is the long way round. I doubt you would be interested in putting a
scalpel blade into a set of dividers.

Baz

I think I could do that!
I'm always interested in ways to recycle and refurbish outdated things when
it's not always possible (or easy) to get the part you need.
Cheers, Baz, much appreciated.

Tina

"Christina Websell" wrote in message
...


I think I could do that!
I'm always interested in ways to recycle and refurbish outdated things when
it's not always possible (or easy) to get the part you need.
Cheers, Baz, much appreciated.

Tina

For those not too expert with compasses, scalpels etc. then large sharp
scissors can be a
godsend cutting shapes in many sealing materials.

Pete

On 2013-09-03 18:22:50 +0100, Nick Maclaren said:

In article ,
sacha wrote:
On 2013-09-03 16:13:38 +0000, Gary Woods said:

BTW, I can tomatoes using a pressure canner (5 pounds/15 minutes), not for
safety reasons, but because it takes a LOT less electrical energy to do
than heating a big pot of water. Not to mention how long it takes to boil
a big pot of water on one of those pretty "glass top"
stove....erm...cookers.

My grandmother (English, Co. Durham origin) used to talk of a stove,
not a cooker. It was a gas stove, not (to her) a gas cooker. Was that
unusual in UK 60 or so years ago? I really don't know.

No. I always knew of them as stoves, and came from a different
background.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

According to Wiki, a 'stove' was an enclosed space that was heated to
cook food, or a single heated room. Speaking only for myself, I might
still speak of a 'gas stove' but not an electric one, a wood burner on
which you can cook, or an Aga. So for me, it's clearly connected with
my grandmother's use of the word. Bit like the 'black stump' and
'bull's noon'. ;-)
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

"Gary Woods" wrote in message
...
Baz wrote:

I am going to do some beetroot, onions, tomatoes and some cucumbers
(gerkins?).

I may have missed mention of botulism; surely everybody knows that
non-acid
foods need the temperature of a pressure canner to be sure?
I had to dig out my EnglishAmerican reference to find out that we call
them "Mason jars," after the dominant (but surely not only) manufacturer.
What are use are similar to the pictures of Kilner jars, with a separate
ring (usually removed after the contents cool) and lid with rubber seal,
which is not to be re-used.

--
My grandfather managed to not kill us all with his kidney beans storage but
IIRC he used rock salt. It came in loaf shape and had be sawed by a knife.
Tina

On 03/09/2013 17:13, Gary Woods wrote:

Not to mention how long it takes to boil
a big pot of water on one of those pretty "glass top"
stove....erm...cookers.


Do you mean ceramic only? I find it is very quick to boil on an
induction hob on full power. Almost as quick as a kettle and more
controllable/safer than gas, imo. (In fact we now use a hob based
kettle on the induction hob).

I don't think we'd consider moving away from induction. (It can be a
bit of a commitment as you might need to replace the pans that don't
work on one).

--
regards
andy