On 04/09/2013 01:20, Christina Websell wrote:
"Gary Woods" wrote in message
...
Baz wrote:

I am going to do some beetroot, onions, tomatoes and some cucumbers
(gerkins?).

I may have missed mention of botulism; surely everybody knows that
non-acid
foods need the temperature of a pressure canner to be sure?
I had to dig out my EnglishAmerican reference to find out that we call
them "Mason jars," after the dominant (but surely not only) manufacturer.
What are use are similar to the pictures of Kilner jars, with a separate
ring (usually removed after the contents cool) and lid with rubber seal,
which is not to be re-used.

My grandfather managed to not kill us all with his kidney beans storage but
IIRC he used rock salt. It came in loaf shape and had be sawed by a knife.
Tina

Bit puzzled by that comment. Kidney beans contain a mild toxin
(although if you have eaten them when they haven't been cooked hot and
long enough, it doesn't seem /that/ mild. I speak from experience). It
is in a different league (or different galaxy...) from botulism. I'm
not sure, but I would guess that if you cooked kidney beans long enough
to inactivate their toxin - basically 30 minutes at a rolling boil - you
would also kill any C.botulinum or its spores,as well as inactivating
any botulinum toxin, but I am happy to be corrected.

I would also guess that high concentrations of salt prolong spore
survival time. The less water a spore is exposed to, the longer it can
survive. Excess salt, even in solution, would keep a spore partially
dehydrated and more viable. But then salt isn't used to control botulism
- what is needed is potassium nitrate (saltpetre).

More info on the first couple of pages he
http://www.foodsafety.govt.nz/elibra...s_Produced.pdf

--

Jeff

In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:
On 04/09/2013 01:20, Christina Websell wrote:
"Gary Woods" wrote in message
...
Baz wrote:

I am going to do some beetroot, onions, tomatoes and some cucumbers
(gerkins?).

I may have missed mention of botulism; surely everybody knows that
non-acid
foods need the temperature of a pressure canner to be sure?
I had to dig out my EnglishAmerican reference to find out that we call
them "Mason jars," after the dominant (but surely not only) manufacturer.
What are use are similar to the pictures of Kilner jars, with a separate
ring (usually removed after the contents cool) and lid with rubber seal,
which is not to be re-used.

My grandfather managed to not kill us all with his kidney beans storage but
IIRC he used rock salt. It came in loaf shape and had be sawed by a knife.

Bit puzzled by that comment. Kidney beans contain a mild toxin
(although if you have eaten them when they haven't been cooked hot and
long enough, it doesn't seem /that/ mild. I speak from experience). It
is in a different league (or different galaxy...) from botulism. I'm
not sure, but I would guess that if you cooked kidney beans long enough
to inactivate their toxin - basically 30 minutes at a rolling boil - you
would also kill any C.botulinum or its spores,as well as inactivating
any botulinum toxin, but I am happy to be corrected.

If you get enough of the bean toxin, it can kill - there were a number
of such cases when slow cookers first became popular. But you need
nothing like 30 minutes for that toxin - 10 is plenty - though you
probably need 30 minutes if there was significant botulinus toxin.

I would also guess that high concentrations of salt prolong spore
survival time. The less water a spore is exposed to, the longer it can
survive. Excess salt, even in solution, would keep a spore partially
dehydrated and more viable. But then salt isn't used to control botulism
- what is needed is potassium nitrate (saltpetre).

No, it's not like that. Clostridium is effectly not infectious, so
it's only when the spores germinate and have time to grow that the
toxin builds up. Common salt discourages that in several ways, as
does saltpetre. So do acids and allowing aeration.

If I were Baz, I would use a pressure cooker for those vegetables.
Fruit isn't a problem.

The chances of gasless C. botulinum developing may be low, but those
are not typically cooked much after opening, and the risk of death
if the toxin DOES develop are close to 100%. Note the criterion
'gasless' - most C. botulinum produces gases, which is why you should
never eat anything from a bulgy can. But there is also the danger of
a pinhole letting the gas out, which is the reason for testing the
seal before use and never eating from rusty cans.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 04/09/2013 12:34, Nick Maclaren wrote:

The chances of gasless C. botulinum developing may be low, but those
are not typically cooked much after opening, and the risk of death
if the toxin DOES develop are close to 100%. Note the criterion
'gasless' - most C. botulinum produces gases, which is why you should
never eat anything from a bulgy can. But there is also the danger of
a pinhole letting the gas out, which is the reason for testing the
seal before use and never eating from rusty cans.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Is gas production related to whether or not the spoilt food smells? I
had often wondered why those who suffered botulism couldn't detect that
awful smell and so avoid eating the food. I had just assumed that as
only extremely small amounts of toxin were required for poisoning to
take place the smell was present, but in such small amounts as to make
it imperceptible. But I just found this:

"The proteolytic type A, B and F strains produce very heat-resistant
spores which are a major concern in the processing of low-acid foods.
These types digest proteins in foods and produce a foul odor that may
warn consumers of spoilage.

The nonproteolytic B, E and F strains can grow at refrigerated
temperatures, but produce spores of very low heat resistance. These
types cause problems primarily in pasteurized or unheated foods. Because
they are nonproteolytic, no off-odor or evidence of spoilage may be
produced with toxin development."

(from http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09305.html) Some
interesting info there, and for those who doubted your comment about the
effects of altitude, it has a special mention!

I guess that talking about "Clostridium botulinum" as though it is just
one organism is simplifying things too much; I had no idea it was so
complicated.

--

Jeff

On 01/09/2013 14:29, Baz wrote:
I went to the car boot market this morning to get me spring cabbage plants
and bought a box of 30ish 1 and 2 pint kilner jars for £3.50. Most of the
seals are nacked, but no problem I can make some.
I am going to do some beetroot, onions, tomatoes and some cucumbers
(gerkins?).
That will take 10 jars maximum.
What else can I store in them? My auntie makes all the jam and marmalade
until such times when she can't anymore.

I can give them away, and I will, no problem, but I like the idea of
preserving what I can. If I give them away they will be full, probably of
beetroot or onions. Maybe tomatoes, seeing as how they have started to
ripen by the minute.

Baz

Going by what some here would have you believe possibly they should be
called Killing-her Jars.
Anyone stupid enough to put meat or fish into them must be a couple of
sandwiches short of a picnic.

In article ,
David Hill wrote:
On 01/09/2013 14:29, Baz wrote:

I went to the car boot market this morning to get me spring cabbage plants
and bought a box of 30ish 1 and 2 pint kilner jars for £3.50. Most of the
seals are nacked, but no problem I can make some.
I am going to do some beetroot, onions, tomatoes and some cucumbers
(gerkins?).
That will take 10 jars maximum.
What else can I store in them? My auntie makes all the jam and marmalade
until such times when she can't anymore.

I can give them away, and I will, no problem, but I like the idea of
preserving what I can. If I give them away they will be full, probably of
beetroot or onions. Maybe tomatoes, seeing as how they have started to
ripen by the minute.

Going by what some here would have you believe possibly they should be
called Killing-her Jars.
Anyone stupid enough to put meat or fish into them must be a couple of
sandwiches short of a picnic.

Try looking in a typical French supermarket - you will see lots of
meat-containing dishes packed in such jars. The point is that it is
pretty safe - IF AND ONLY IF you do it correctly. What I don't know
is what the risk is of the non-acid vegetable foods that Baz is
proposing to preserve. Certainly, the traditional UK practice was
to do them under pressure.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 04/09/2013 22:20, Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,
David Hill wrote:
On 01/09/2013 14:29, Baz wrote:

I went to the car boot market this morning to get me spring cabbage plants
and bought a box of 30ish 1 and 2 pint kilner jars for £3.50. Most of the
seals are nacked, but no problem I can make some.
I am going to do some beetroot, onions, tomatoes and some cucumbers
(gerkins?).
That will take 10 jars maximum.
What else can I store in them? My auntie makes all the jam and marmalade
until such times when she can't anymore.

I can give them away, and I will, no problem, but I like the idea of
preserving what I can. If I give them away they will be full, probably of
beetroot or onions. Maybe tomatoes, seeing as how they have started to
ripen by the minute.

Going by what some here would have you believe possibly they should be
called Killing-her Jars.
Anyone stupid enough to put meat or fish into them must be a couple of
sandwiches short of a picnic.

Try looking in a typical French supermarket - you will see lots of
meat-containing dishes packed in such jars. The point is that it is
pretty safe - IF AND ONLY IF you do it correctly. What I don't know
is what the risk is of the non-acid vegetable foods that Baz is
proposing to preserve. Certainly, the traditional UK practice was
to do them under pressure.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

I think you are talking about what was called potted meat when I was young.
Not something that was commonly done at home.

In article ,
David Hill wrote:

Going by what some here would have you believe possibly they should be
called Killing-her Jars.
Anyone stupid enough to put meat or fish into them must be a couple of
sandwiches short of a picnic.

Try looking in a typical French supermarket - you will see lots of
meat-containing dishes packed in such jars. The point is that it is
pretty safe - IF AND ONLY IF you do it correctly. What I don't know
is what the risk is of the non-acid vegetable foods that Baz is
proposing to preserve. Certainly, the traditional UK practice was
to do them under pressure.

I think you are talking about what was called potted meat when I was young.
Not something that was commonly done at home.

Not just that - think cassoulet or confit de canard. While that
sort of thing was not commonly done to meat at home in the UK,
France is very little higher.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Malcolm wrote:

The danger with high-protein, non-acid foods, such as fish and meat
is that mere boiling point is not enough to destroy Clostridium
botulinum spores. If one then germinates, the toxin will build
up, and the sealed food can then be lethal. Yes, it happens.

This is scaremongering, based on nothing at all, it would seem.

According to the NHS website, there were just 33 recorded cases of
food-borne botulism in England and Wales in the 30 years from 1980 and
2010, and 26 of those were linked to a single outbreak in 1989 caused
by
contaminated hazelnut yoghurt.

Sigh. And just how many people in the UK bottle meat, fish and
other such high-protein, non-acid foods in Kilner jars? Almost
everyone has better sense than to do that, because there are much
better ways.

Clearly not, judging by this thread. I also note the absence of any
evidence to back up your blatant scaremongering about botulism,
including "it happens", which I note you have snipped, presumably so you
can avoid having to respond to my request to demonstrate that it
referred to Kilner jars.

You really do seem to be being deliberately foolish. I snipped that
paragraph because it was not relevant. I never said that it happens
in the UK,

Oh, what an enormous wriggle we see before us. You most certainly did
not say that it didn't happen in the UK. Go back and read the context of
that remark.

I certainly agree that I did not say that it doesn't happen here.
My paragraph stated above says what I meant to say, and is correct.
Warning people that bottling fruit is safe, but higher temperatures
are needed for some other foods is not scaremongering. Some people
(and I suspect that Baz may be one) have enough nous to be interested
in pushing the boundaries.

Either you desperately need a remedial course in English comprehension
or you are simply trolling. Or both, I suppose.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.


wow, this is really exciting, an argument between Nick & Malcolm, who both
know they know best!!

"Jeff Layman" wrote in message
...
On 04/09/2013 01:20, Christina Websell wrote:
"Gary Woods" wrote in message
...
Baz wrote:

I am going to do some beetroot, onions, tomatoes and some cucumbers
(gerkins?).

I may have missed mention of botulism; surely everybody knows that
non-acid
foods need the temperature of a pressure canner to be sure?
I had to dig out my EnglishAmerican reference to find out that we call
them "Mason jars," after the dominant (but surely not only)
manufacturer.
What are use are similar to the pictures of Kilner jars, with a separate
ring (usually removed after the contents cool) and lid with rubber seal,
which is not to be re-used.

My grandfather managed to not kill us all with his kidney beans storage
but
IIRC he used rock salt. It came in loaf shape and had be sawed by a
knife.
Tina

Bit puzzled by that comment. Kidney beans contain a mild toxin (although
if you have eaten them when they haven't been cooked hot and long enough,
it doesn't seem /that/ mild. I speak from experience). It is in a
different league (or different galaxy...) from botulism. I'm not sure,
but I would guess that if you cooked kidney beans long enough to
inactivate their toxin - basically 30 minutes at a rolling boil - you
would also kill any C.botulinum or its spores,as well as inactivating any
botulinum toxin, but I am happy to be corrected.

I would also guess that high concentrations of salt prolong spore survival
time. The less water a spore is exposed to, the longer it can survive.
Excess salt, even in solution, would keep a spore partially dehydrated and
more viable. But then salt isn't used to control botulism - what is needed
is potassium nitrate (saltpetre).

More info on the first couple of pages he
http://www.foodsafety.govt.nz/elibra...s_Produced.pdf

--
we are not talking about bean seeds but the flesh of them. IYSWIM.
Never died of them being salted by my grandfather.