I thought it was my age getting me confused yet again.
Lidl are advertising "Choose from Aster, Chrysanthemums or Veronica plants"
But Shrubby veronicas were renamed Hebe before I was born,
I decided to check on line to find out when and came across this:-

Many Kiwi nurserymen and gardeners are puzzled by a recent name change.
Victoria University's Professor Phil Garnock-Jones and his colleagues
argue that none of our native plants should be called Hebe. They say the
name Hebe should be dumped, with the plants reverting to their former
name, Veronica.

That's right. In the early days, New Zealand had about 90 species of
Veronica but, in 1929, botanists Leonard Cockayne and H H Allen
officially renamed them all Hebes and we've called them Hebes ever since.

Now, bringing DNA and cladistic analysis to the picture, our modern
botanists have undone Cockayne and Allen's logic and turned all the
Hebes back into Veronicas again. Some botanists have welcomed the
change, others resist it, others again feel that Hebe is such a nice
name they don't want to lose it.

David @ a wet Swansea Bay

On 2013-10-21 21:59:42 +0100, David Hill said:

I thought it was my age getting me confused yet again.
Lidl are advertising "Choose from Aster, Chrysanthemums or Veronica plants"
But Shrubby veronicas were renamed Hebe before I was born,
I decided to check on line to find out when and came across this:-

Many Kiwi nurserymen and gardeners are puzzled by a recent name change.
Victoria University's Professor Phil Garnock-Jones and his colleagues
argue that none of our native plants should be called Hebe. They say
the name Hebe should be dumped, with the plants reverting to their
former name, Veronica.

That's right. In the early days, New Zealand had about 90 species of
Veronica but, in 1929, botanists Leonard Cockayne and H H Allen
officially renamed them all Hebes and we've called them Hebes ever
since.

Now, bringing DNA and cladistic analysis to the picture, our modern
botanists have undone Cockayne and Allen's logic and turned all the
Hebes back into Veronicas again. Some botanists have welcomed the
change, others resist it, others again feel that Hebe is such a nice
name they don't want to lose it.

David @ a wet Swansea Bay

I think this is done by some sadist just to confuse the rest of us. I
recall my grandfather calling Hebes Veronicas but had completely
forgotten about that until now.
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

In article ,
Sacha wrote:
On 2013-10-21 21:59:42 +0100, David Hill said:

I thought it was my age getting me confused yet again.
Lidl are advertising "Choose from Aster, Chrysanthemums or Veronica plants"
But Shrubby veronicas were renamed Hebe before I was born,
I decided to check on line to find out when and came across this:-

Many Kiwi nurserymen and gardeners are puzzled by a recent name change.
Victoria University's Professor Phil Garnock-Jones and his colleagues
argue that none of our native plants should be called Hebe. They say
the name Hebe should be dumped, with the plants reverting to their
former name, Veronica.

That's right. In the early days, New Zealand had about 90 species of
Veronica but, in 1929, botanists Leonard Cockayne and H H Allen
officially renamed them all Hebes and we've called them Hebes ever
since.

Now, bringing DNA and cladistic analysis to the picture, our modern
botanists have undone Cockayne and Allen's logic and turned all the
Hebes back into Veronicas again. Some botanists have welcomed the
change, others resist it, others again feel that Hebe is such a nice
name they don't want to lose it.

I think this is done by some sadist just to confuse the rest of us. I
recall my grandfather calling Hebes Veronicas but had completely
forgotten about that until now.

No, they don't care about the likes of us! What is happening is
that most taxonomy was taken over by cliques of second-raters, who
massage their egos by abusing the data and statistical methods to
make changes, many of which are unjustified and some of which are
then changed later.

At one time, we took Nature, and I was disgusted at the low standards
in the papers on this topic. I have also done some searching through
the literature on a few topics, and was no more impressed. There
are many papers proposing changes based on the analysis of a single
factor (and we know that such changes have been made), and many that
used completely bogus pseudo-statistical analyses to support their
points.

To those into that area: It was known by the 1960s that methods
of discrimination based on 'outgroups' were terribly sensitive to
the choice of outgroup, and the only reasonably reliable methods
used either just the population(s) being considered or a coherent
super-population.

Also, anyone with even a clue about simple genetics knows that the
pattern of a single multi-valued factor is unreliable, if any
potential parent populations might have included all of the values,
because the probability of it indicating a false ancestry is so
high.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 2013-10-22 09:03:19 +0000, Nick Maclaren said:

In article ,
Sacha wrote:
On 2013-10-21 21:59:42 +0100, David Hill said:

I thought it was my age getting me confused yet again.
Lidl are advertising "Choose from Aster, Chrysanthemums or Veronica plants"
But Shrubby veronicas were renamed Hebe before I was born,
I decided to check on line to find out when and came across this:-

Many Kiwi nurserymen and gardeners are puzzled by a recent name change.
Victoria University's Professor Phil Garnock-Jones and his colleagues
argue that none of our native plants should be called Hebe. They say
the name Hebe should be dumped, with the plants reverting to their
former name, Veronica.

That's right. In the early days, New Zealand had about 90 species of
Veronica but, in 1929, botanists Leonard Cockayne and H H Allen
officially renamed them all Hebes and we've called them Hebes ever
since.

Now, bringing DNA and cladistic analysis to the picture, our modern
botanists have undone Cockayne and Allen's logic and turned all the
Hebes back into Veronicas again. Some botanists have welcomed the
change, others resist it, others again feel that Hebe is such a nice
name they don't want to lose it.

I think this is done by some sadist just to confuse the rest of us. I
recall my grandfather calling Hebes Veronicas but had completely
forgotten about that until now.

No, they don't care about the likes of us! What is happening is
that most taxonomy was taken over by cliques of second-raters, who
massage their egos by abusing the data and statistical methods to
make changes, many of which are unjustified and some of which are
then changed later.

At one time, we took Nature, and I was disgusted at the low standards
in the papers on this topic. I have also done some searching through
the literature on a few topics, and was no more impressed. There
are many papers proposing changes based on the analysis of a single
factor (and we know that such changes have been made), and many that
used completely bogus pseudo-statistical analyses to support their
points.

To those into that area: It was known by the 1960s that methods
of discrimination based on 'outgroups' were terribly sensitive to
the choice of outgroup, and the only reasonably reliable methods
used either just the population(s) being considered or a coherent
super-population.

Also, anyone with even a clue about simple genetics knows that the
pattern of a single multi-valued factor is unreliable, if any
potential parent populations might have included all of the values,
because the probability of it indicating a false ancestry is so
high.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Well, I think they'll be staying Hebes around here for quite a while
longer. Customers are easily confused by those name change games and it
can take a lot of time to sort it out on a busy day! "Do you mean you
want Veronica Red Edge?" would elicit total bewilderment, I feel sure!
Though I see that Crocus is talking about veronica Hebe Red Edge so
that's sort of covering all bases!
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon

On 22/10/2013 11:56, sacha wrote:
On 2013-10-22 09:03:19 +0000, Nick Maclaren said:

In article ,
Sacha wrote:
On 2013-10-21 21:59:42 +0100, David Hill said:

I thought it was my age getting me confused yet again.
Lidl are advertising "Choose from Aster, Chrysanthemums or Veronica
plants"
But Shrubby veronicas were renamed Hebe before I was born,
I decided to check on line to find out when and came across this:-

Many Kiwi nurserymen and gardeners are puzzled by a recent name change.
Victoria University's Professor Phil Garnock-Jones and his colleagues
argue that none of our native plants should be called Hebe. They say
the name Hebe should be dumped, with the plants reverting to their
former name, Veronica.

That's right. In the early days, New Zealand had about 90 species of
Veronica but, in 1929, botanists Leonard Cockayne and H H Allen
officially renamed them all Hebes and we've called them Hebes ever
since.

Now, bringing DNA and cladistic analysis to the picture, our modern
botanists have undone Cockayne and Allen's logic and turned all the
Hebes back into Veronicas again. Some botanists have welcomed the
change, others resist it, others again feel that Hebe is such a nice
name they don't want to lose it.

I think this is done by some sadist just to confuse the rest of us. I
recall my grandfather calling Hebes Veronicas but had completely
forgotten about that until now.

No, they don't care about the likes of us! What is happening is
that most taxonomy was taken over by cliques of second-raters, who
massage their egos by abusing the data and statistical methods to
make changes, many of which are unjustified and some of which are
then changed later.

At one time, we took Nature, and I was disgusted at the low standards
in the papers on this topic. I have also done some searching through
the literature on a few topics, and was no more impressed. There
are many papers proposing changes based on the analysis of a single
factor (and we know that such changes have been made), and many that
used completely bogus pseudo-statistical analyses to support their
points.

To those into that area: It was known by the 1960s that methods
of discrimination based on 'outgroups' were terribly sensitive to
the choice of outgroup, and the only reasonably reliable methods
used either just the population(s) being considered or a coherent
super-population.

Also, anyone with even a clue about simple genetics knows that the
pattern of a single multi-valued factor is unreliable, if any
potential parent populations might have included all of the values,
because the probability of it indicating a false ancestry is so
high.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Well, I think they'll be staying Hebes around here for quite a while
longer. Customers are easily confused by those name change games and it
can take a lot of time to sort it out on a busy day! "Do you mean you
want Veronica Red Edge?" would elicit total bewilderment, I feel sure!
Though I see that Crocus is talking about veronica Hebe Red Edge so
that's sort of covering all bases!

I seem to remember them being Shrubby Veronicas