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At the risk of being unpopular
On 2013-11-07 11:05:38 +0000, Bill Grey said:
"Sacha" wrote in message ... I'm concerned for the future of this group which I've enjoyed hugely for 16 years. Some have been here longer than that. But given the number of those who used to post and who lurk (I know of a few, not many now) the response to the suggestion that we widen our horizons, look at a blog and consider looking at others and discussing their content, were - forgive the pun - seeds on stony ground. I don't know if this is because of disinterest, complacence or a belief that urg will continue into the mists of time. It won't. Sacha www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon www.helpforheroes.org.uk You have a point Sacha. C ouple of NGs that I have posted to have declined dramatically or gone to the wall. As you say, Facebook has taken over quite a lot, and although I have jined it I can't say I enjoy uing it. Nick who posts on this NG must surely have noticed the decline in correspondence in the Walking NG - it is largely subscribed to by technical questions about gear. A Fishing NG has just about finished, not having had a bite for a couple of years. An American NG - at least largely subscribed to by Americans, has slipped out of sight into Facebook. I have often said I'm no gardener compared to the contributors to URG, but I can sometimes offer suggetsions (though not intellectual gardening stuff) and enjoy receiving advice whenever I need some. The "old hands" are needed as reference points for us gardening dumbos. Bill Thanks for contributing to the discussion Bill and the same to John. I think those of us who enjoy urg and want it to continue have to look at introducing other topics. And we can do that by looking further afield and coming back here to discuss and learn. The number of regular posters here is now rather small and I have seen just the same on the uk food group. Numbers are way down. Yes, I think Facebook has taken over to a large extent and as discussion groups can be formed there, I think that will continue to be the case. To keep a newsgroup alive and an interesting place to be, we have to have more and more interesting topics but that is just my opinion. If others don't want that it's a group decision. -- Sacha www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon www.helpforheroes.org.uk |
At the risk of being unpopular
On Thu, 7 Nov 2013 Jake wrote:
On Thu, 7 Nov 2013 09:47:14 +0000, David Rance wrote: I've been reading URG for around eighteen years, I think. Even when I started at least one of the stalwarts, Chunky, who helped create URG had already left - I never saw any messages by him. And Cormaic last only another five years or so before he found that his business left him too little time to contribute. But Cormaic was a great encourager. It was he that persuaded me to post a regular welcome message and he still hosts the URG web site. Ok, so we have a URG web site. Why don't we use it? Not much has changed for years apart from keeping some of the FAQs up-to-date. In fact, it probably suffers from a lot of the formatting and colour problems that others have mentioned. It needs a good overhaul. We could keep a blog going on that. There could be several blogs. Has anyone the vision to make use of http://www.u-r-g.co.uk ? URG doesn't *have* to stay as a Usenet group. A well-thought contribution David. I have visited the web site quite a few times and have referred to the FAQs when responding to questions from "visitors" though I think I'm the only one to have done so recently. OTOH, the web site is rather out of date. I don't mean design, though that does scream out for updating: the underlying appearance is 90s and the presentation of content can be difficult to follow. Thanks for your comments, Jake, with which I whole-heartedly agree. Just to answer one or two of them More fundamentally, many (I think the majority) of the external links no longer work. In one FAQ there is reference to using Armillatox to kill vine weevil. Yep, lots probably use it for such purposes but doing so is illegal and advocating doing so could have repercussions! There are also references to other products which have been withdrawn following EU dictat. So someone does need to go through it and remove the inconsistencies and repair or replace the links. About three or four years ago a couple of us (RG and me) were given write access to the site with a view to repairing links which didn't work and adding any new FAQs. To rescue some of them I had to go to sites that cache pages but I think we got them all back. But that was three or four years ago and so obviously it needs looking at again. There was something also called the "web-ring" where contributors' web sites were linked in by a sort of "ring". However we couldn't get the software for that going again. It also needs a new domain name. "u-r-g.co.uk" conveys nothing to the uninitiated. That's true, though there's little we can do about that as it belongs to Cormaic. It would need some sort of discussion facility to be any "substitute" for the newsgroup. The present site seems to have been (at some time) operated on the basis that you emailed Cormaic and he put your question/contribution on the site. Yes, that was how it worked but latterly RG and I to did that. However none of the older urglers who knew about the web-site have contributed anything recently. The last was Nick. I agree that an interactive page or pages are needed. I actually set up Wordpress on my choir's website a year or two back when I was DoM at All Saints', Wokingham, but it's not necessary to host the Wordpress software on one's own web site. Put this together and I guess we have a non-starter. I doubt there would ever be agreement on design; the task of initial updating will not be a small one and I wonder how many here will know how to do it and/or be willing to learn, let alone devote the time. Though perhaps we ought to have some sort of whip-round for Cormaic - just maintaining the domain name is costing him money. I think Cormaic now acts also as a small ISP so the cost to him is minimal. He said that he's willing to host it free of charge to us as long as we need it. David -- David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK |
At the risk of being unpopular
On Thu, 07 Nov 2013 11:13:31 +0000, Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article , David Rance wrote: I said that it was the first *general* means of electronic communication. By that I mean available/affordable to all. UUCP may well have predated it but UUCP was not available to all because of the high cost of getting connected to the Internet, certainly in the UK, until 1992 when Demon first made it affordable here. UUCP predated the 'Internet' by some years, and relied on nothing more than a telephone line and someone who was prepared to talk to you. Cost was not the issue; the public's perception and lack of nous was. By the time that Fidonet actually became 'general' (1985), UUCP was quite widespread among the general public. No, I don't have figures, but it wouldn't surprise me if UUCP didn't have more members of the general public using it than Fidonet did until about 1990. There were versions for MS-DOS by 1985. Of course, their users came from different communities, so each was and is unaware of the other. Anyway, this has nothing to do with gardening, so I shall stop here. [Danger, Will Robinson, long post!] Just to add a +1 {blush} to the UUCP debate. UUCP was one standard way of interconnecting Unix computers before we had ISPs. [Unix to Unix Copy - does exactly what it says on the tin.] Slow propagation of data across multiple hops and relying on someone having a telephone line or two spare (for at least part of the day). Usenet was suited to this because of the text based postings which could maintain threading even if they took a while to arrive. The technology is well out of date. The structure may not be. The main strength that I see it that there is a managed hierarchy. To become part of Usenet you have to make a case for a new group and have it voted on and approved. This usually means that for UK based recreational gardeners there is only one uk.rec.gardening and if someone doesn't like what it is discussing then they are free to say so, ignore posters, or even leave. If there is a real problem and enough people vote on it a moderated version can be set up. All your News Groups are handled by your News Reader and you can easily see where there has been new activity, and skip between them at the click of a button. Contrast this with web based fora - where there is no regulation (good thing) but endless fragmentation. Where do you go for a gardening forum, or a computing forum, or a health forum? Google will show you loads of fora with very similar names running very similar software, a very similar look and feel and if you want to ask a question and get a considered answer you probably have to join half a dozen and post the same question to them all. If you don't like any forum, is costs about £10 a month to rent space on a server and mount a free discussion forum of your own. There, you can promote your own views and moderate or bar anyone you don't agree with. There is a certain natural selection here, as overly moderated fora will not gain users. However, as I say, it is so easy and cheap to set up a forum that loads of people do it and it makes life very confusing. The main downside of Usenet is the lack of graphical content. This can be viewed as a blessing but the current generation have been brought up with graphic rich feature rich social media services and probably want what they are used to. The main problem with modern social media sites is finding the content amongst all the background noise. I find I can't get on with Facebook fora (and I have tried) because the format seems to be centred on 'look at me now' posts with loads of pictures instead of a structured set of discussions. Yes, you can comment but I find it very hard to track up and down over a couple of weeks to try and find relevant threads. You also have to find the correct Facebook site as well. Very good for disseminating information but not so good as Usenet for long discussions. The comment threads seem to be one long stream, not answer linked to question. I've tried a bit of Twitter but I struggle to find a structure - which #taginterestingtopic should I be following and how do I find it? I have a Twitter account but as nobody I regularly chat with is using it I generally communicate group information over Facebook with friends, and specific one-to-one information over the Chat function in Skype. If I am looking for information and advice I go first to Usenet because it is structured to make finding resources easy. Then I use Google and look for a forum, and asses the frequency of posting and the apparent quality of the answers. If it looks promising I join. However there are loads of fora where I joined to ask a specific question then have not visited much afterwards - and I haven't found any aggregating function to let me watch all these web fora for activity apart from subscribing to email updates. I use uk.rec.gardening and uk.d-i-y (amongst others) because they are good resources and I haven't yet found anything better. If uk.rec.gardening dries up then I will look for another resource (almost certainly an online forum) which offers a similar level of knowledge and helpfulness. I note that nobody so far has pointed to any site (apart from the much maligned GardenBanter) which offers a similar discussion forum to here. If there isn't one, that might be a project for someone? Finally, accepting that we are mainly old farts who grew up with the technology and may well have first investigated Usenet because our first PC came with Outlook Express with a built in news reader and our first ISP provided a free news server I don't think that this is the only reason that interest in gardening is dying. As a home owner for many years I have seen the same size garden morph from being described as 'small', to 'good size' to 'large' over the years, and new builds being more and more packed in with smaller and smaller gardens. I don't think that many people under 30 are really interested in gardening. I say this from observing my own kids (now over 30), their friends and neighbours, and our neighbours. The garden proud generally tend to be of our age group. There is so much to occupy the younger generations, from eating out to films, music, gaming, TV that relaxing in the garden or de-stressing through a bit of gentle weeding is not part of their lifestyle. A garden is something that must be easily (grudgingly) maintained and is viewed as somewhere to have friends round for a barbie in the summer or sit out in occasionally but not as a main focus of pride. I must also say that it isn't only gardens - this spills over into cooking, cleaning, house work, all the background 'maintenance' things which contribute to home life. People want convenience and their focus is on social activity outside the home. I was brought up in suburbia where there was much pride in the gardens, and gardens were all well maintained because that it what you did. We live in a different society now, with different priorities. So in conclusion I thing the declining interest in URG is at least partly because it reflects the declining interest in gardening as a whole. Cheers Dave R |
At the risk of being unpopular
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At the risk of being unpopular
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At the risk of being unpopular
On Thu, 07 Nov 2013 12:21:06 +0000, Jake wrote:
On 7 Nov 2013 11:49:22 GMT, "David.WE.Roberts" wrote: So, please, where is the active and interesting discussion? Example. Look at http://thinkingardens.co.uk/articles...ristine-dakin/ which, incidentally, was picked up by Amateur Gardening who clearly thought it would be of interest to their readership. Not the first time AG has picked up something from ThinkinGardens. Anyhows, scroll down and you will see the discussion that follows. Scroll down to the bottom and you can submit your own contribution. TG runs a moderation system and a first comment may take a couple of hours to appear (say if you post while moderators are having lunch) but once you're a regular it's a lot quicker. ASIDE: For those unfamiliar with blogs often, and in response to the fact that people access the web via all sorts of mobile devices these days, a blog will essentially have two presentations, one with and one without comments. Thus someone using up the bandwidth on their mobile phone may iniitially only see the original post. But somewhere near the top and/or bottom of the post there will be some "comment indicator" which, when clicked downloads and displays the ensuing discussion and affords the opportunity to contribute to that. O.K. - thanks, got it now. Uses tweets - the one I have looked at so far reminds me of a Facebook post with a string of scrolling comments. Not as useful looking to me as an online forum - I have discussed this at enormous length elsewhere :-) Cheers Dave R |
At the risk of being unpopular
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At the risk of being unpopular
On 07/11/2013 14:03, Janet wrote:
In article , am says... Somewhat ironically, the site that does offer a means for people to participate and post is the Garden Banter site! Much bemoaned by some of the URG regulars for "stealing" posts made on URG. Those of us who remain in URG could simply move and relocate there?! For what? Its format is as bad as google groups, far less user- friendly than Usenet, and it's moderated. Janet I think the way forward would be to create and use a phpBB forum. The only downside I can see is that while you can post images in your posts they have to be published on photo sharing sites first and then linked to within the users posts, but that is essentially what happens on URG anyway. I think the largest problem is that Usenet is becoming less and less known to younger generations. Many think that the "Internet" is just web pages. The added complication of needing a newsreader to access URG is just another obstacle (not counting Google groups which I've never used but I gather it has a lot of bad press regarding usability). Another issue with creating a web based forum would be who would host it and who would pay for the hosting? There are some free forum hosts which would probably suffice for the small amount of traffic URG experiences at the moment, but beyond a few dozen posters they become impractical or restricted. -- David in Normandy. |
At the risk of being unpopular
On Thu, 7 Nov 2013 Janet wrote:
In article , says... Cormaic ..still hosts the URG web site. Ok, so we have a URG web site. Why don't we use it? Because "we", do not have a website. It's Tony's. Right from the start, he maintained absolute personal control to his own high security standards."We" never did have access to upload material or remove anything from it. He did all that himself. Anything "we" wanted on there, was submitted to Tony to vet and upload and maintain. He's got no wish to do all that any more. No, but he has handed that over to a couple of us. His only condition is that we continue to acknowledge "Cormaic Web Design" at the bottom of the page. David -- David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK |
At the risk of being unpopular
On Thu, 7 Nov 2013 Janet wrote:
In article , says... I quite agree, which was what I was suggesting. What I was saying is that we are not *using/developing* a facility which we already have at our disposal. What makes you think it's "at our disposal"? Because it is! It was always webmastered exclusively by Cormaic and that burden is what he very understandably declined to continue, years back. That's why it has never been touched since, because none of us can. Sorry, as I've just written, yes we can! :-) Some already have (brave people). Doesn't Janet sometimes write from Gardenbanter? No, never. Kay does. Ah, thanks for the correction. David -- David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK |
At the risk of being unpopular
On Thu, 07 Nov 2013 14:18:21 +0100, David in Normandy wrote:
On 07/11/2013 14:03, Janet wrote: In article , am says... Somewhat ironically, the site that does offer a means for people to participate and post is the Garden Banter site! Much bemoaned by some of the URG regulars for "stealing" posts made on URG. Those of us who remain in URG could simply move and relocate there?! For what? Its format is as bad as google groups, far less user- friendly than Usenet, and it's moderated. Janet I think the way forward would be to create and use a phpBB forum. The only downside I can see is that while you can post images in your posts they have to be published on photo sharing sites first and then linked to within the users posts, but that is essentially what happens on URG anyway. I think the largest problem is that Usenet is becoming less and less known to younger generations. Many think that the "Internet" is just web pages. The added complication of needing a newsreader to access URG is just another obstacle (not counting Google groups which I've never used but I gather it has a lot of bad press regarding usability). Another issue with creating a web based forum would be who would host it and who would pay for the hosting? There are some free forum hosts which would probably suffice for the small amount of traffic URG experiences at the moment, but beyond a few dozen posters they become impractical or restricted. Can I just point out that phpBB is just one ( and possibly not the most modern or functional) set of discussion group software. Note I am not knocking it. IIRC there are some where you can include photos hosted locally (but the overheads of storing large numbers of images can be significant). I have worked with Joomla in the past, which is a Content Management System [CMS] instead of just a forum, but it does include a forum function. I think a CMS is probably what is needed because it can host FAQ, general articles, links etc. to enhance the forum functionality. However I strongly agree that if we need a web based graphically rich discussion group then this kind of forum is probably the best way to go. Unless, however, we can get some kind of commercial sponsor (a gardening business, presumably) and/or require a subscription and/or take on advertising to fund this then I am not sure how we would cover the cost. Managing any source of funding (unless it is already part of a business) would be a significant overhead. Cheers Dave R |
At the risk of being unpopular
On 07/11/2013 14:43, David.WE.Roberts wrote:
On Thu, 07 Nov 2013 14:18:21 +0100, David in Normandy wrote: On 07/11/2013 14:03, Janet wrote: In article , am says... Somewhat ironically, the site that does offer a means for people to participate and post is the Garden Banter site! Much bemoaned by some of the URG regulars for "stealing" posts made on URG. Those of us who remain in URG could simply move and relocate there?! For what? Its format is as bad as google groups, far less user- friendly than Usenet, and it's moderated. Janet I think the way forward would be to create and use a phpBB forum. The only downside I can see is that while you can post images in your posts they have to be published on photo sharing sites first and then linked to within the users posts, but that is essentially what happens on URG anyway. I think the largest problem is that Usenet is becoming less and less known to younger generations. Many think that the "Internet" is just web pages. The added complication of needing a newsreader to access URG is just another obstacle (not counting Google groups which I've never used but I gather it has a lot of bad press regarding usability). Another issue with creating a web based forum would be who would host it and who would pay for the hosting? There are some free forum hosts which would probably suffice for the small amount of traffic URG experiences at the moment, but beyond a few dozen posters they become impractical or restricted. Can I just point out that phpBB is just one ( and possibly not the most modern or functional) set of discussion group software. Note I am not knocking it. IIRC there are some where you can include photos hosted locally (but the overheads of storing large numbers of images can be significant). I have worked with Joomla in the past, which is a Content Management System [CMS] instead of just a forum, but it does include a forum function. I think a CMS is probably what is needed because it can host FAQ, general articles, links etc. to enhance the forum functionality. However I strongly agree that if we need a web based graphically rich discussion group then this kind of forum is probably the best way to go. Unless, however, we can get some kind of commercial sponsor (a gardening business, presumably) and/or require a subscription and/or take on advertising to fund this then I am not sure how we would cover the cost. Managing any source of funding (unless it is already part of a business) would be a significant overhead. Cheers Dave R I know some members will baulk at this suggestion, particularly one based in the Isle of Wight, but Sacha has such a business already. Maybe such a forum would be both an interesting and a practical proposition for her? Obviously there would be advertising relevant to her nursery but maybe such a forum would be a brave venture into a new world. As an offshoot to the site (linked to it) she could also have an online sales site for her nursery - thus the more viable the forum became and the more traffic, the more online sales she'd likely get from it too. I'm just throwing ideas out there... I'm an ideas guy, so don't all pounce on me! LOL -- David in Normandy. |
At the risk of being unpopular
On 2013-11-07 13:09:58 +0000, Janet said:
In article , lid says... I quite agree, which was what I was suggesting. What I was saying is that we are not *using/developing* a facility which we already have at our disposal. What makes you think it's "at our disposal"? None of us owns it. It was always webmastered exclusively by Cormaic and that burden is what he very understandably declined to continue, years back. That's why it has never been touched since, because none of us can. Actually, he has no objection to someone else taking it over, if they wish to do so. But they would have to liaise with him. snip -- Sacha South Devon |
At the risk of being unpopular
On 2013-11-07 13:56:23 +0000, David in Normandy said:
On 07/11/2013 14:43, David.WE.Roberts wrote: On Thu, 07 Nov 2013 14:18:21 +0100, David in Normandy wrote: On 07/11/2013 14:03, Janet wrote: In article , am says... Somewhat ironically, the site that does offer a means for people to participate and post is the Garden Banter site! Much bemoaned by some of the URG regulars for "stealing" posts made on URG. Those of us who remain in URG could simply move and relocate there?! For what? Its format is as bad as google groups, far less user- friendly than Usenet, and it's moderated. Janet I think the way forward would be to create and use a phpBB forum. The only downside I can see is that while you can post images in your posts they have to be published on photo sharing sites first and then linked to within the users posts, but that is essentially what happens on URG anyway. I think the largest problem is that Usenet is becoming less and less known to younger generations. Many think that the "Internet" is just web pages. The added complication of needing a newsreader to access URG is just another obstacle (not counting Google groups which I've never used but I gather it has a lot of bad press regarding usability). Another issue with creating a web based forum would be who would host it and who would pay for the hosting? There are some free forum hosts which would probably suffice for the small amount of traffic URG experiences at the moment, but beyond a few dozen posters they become impractical or restricted. Can I just point out that phpBB is just one ( and possibly not the most modern or functional) set of discussion group software. Note I am not knocking it. IIRC there are some where you can include photos hosted locally (but the overheads of storing large numbers of images can be significant). I have worked with Joomla in the past, which is a Content Management System [CMS] instead of just a forum, but it does include a forum function. I think a CMS is probably what is needed because it can host FAQ, general articles, links etc. to enhance the forum functionality. However I strongly agree that if we need a web based graphically rich discussion group then this kind of forum is probably the best way to go. Unless, however, we can get some kind of commercial sponsor (a gardening business, presumably) and/or require a subscription and/or take on advertising to fund this then I am not sure how we would cover the cost. Managing any source of funding (unless it is already part of a business) would be a significant overhead. Cheers Dave R I know some members will baulk at this suggestion, particularly one based in the Isle of Wight, but Sacha has such a business already. Maybe such a forum would be both an interesting and a practical proposition for her? Obviously there would be advertising relevant to her nursery but maybe such a forum would be a brave venture into a new world. As an offshoot to the site (linked to it) she could also have an online sales site for her nursery - thus the more viable the forum became and the more traffic, the more online sales she'd likely get from it too. I'm just throwing ideas out there... I'm an ideas guy, so don't all pounce on me! LOL Thanks, David but no thanks! While I see the point you're making, my personal view is that urg should remain advertisement free, with the exceptions of sig.files rules already in place. -- Sacha www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon www.helpforheroes.org.uk |
At the risk of being unpopular
"Nick Maclaren" wrote
Janet wrote: jeanne says... "Sacha" wrote Sacha - just because not many here falls for your "thinking gardens" bait, then it does not follow that we as urglers are dying ! I am one of those who is quite happy with the status here as it stands. Quite. I've been posting to urg for 15 years and it is ALWAYS quieter in winter. Real hands-on gardeners are busy with wintergardening chores, and interests they don't have time for in the growing season. Nah. We just go dormant :-) There is that aspect but from other Ngs it's obvious that Ngs are dying, here we see few new posters only the old hands. By coincidence I met a lady who allotment gardens this morning and we got talking and I mentioned about Newsgroups, she had never heard of them. "How do I get there" was her comment but she uses Web based mail, she does not use an email client program. That is the problem, all the new internet folk use web based mail so never see "Newsgroups" in Tools, and as I did all those years ago, click it to see what happened. -- Regards. Bob Hobden. Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK |
At the risk of being unpopular
On 07/11/2013 15:06, Sacha wrote:
Thanks, David but no thanks! While I see the point you're making, my personal view is that urg should remain advertisement free, with the exceptions of sig.files rules already in place. The fundamental problem with advertisement free forums is they don't have the finance to pay for the site or its bandwidth. This means either asking members to pay a subscription fee and that is extremely unlikely to succeed or to use free hosting, which may have limits on the bandwidth anyway and include adverts by the host, over which the forum operator would have little or no control. There is no easy or palatable alternative to the Usenet based URG as far as I can see and as most of us tend to agree, it is gradually slipping into oblivion. -- David in Normandy. |
At the risk of being unpopular
On 07/11/2013 15:16, David in Normandy wrote:
On 07/11/2013 15:06, Sacha wrote: Thanks, David but no thanks! While I see the point you're making, my personal view is that urg should remain advertisement free, with the exceptions of sig.files rules already in place. The fundamental problem with advertisement free forums is they don't have the finance to pay for the site or its bandwidth. This means either asking members to pay a subscription fee and that is extremely unlikely to succeed or to use free hosting, which may have limits on the bandwidth anyway and include adverts by the host, over which the forum operator would have little or no control. There is no easy or palatable alternative to the Usenet based URG as far as I can see and as most of us tend to agree, it is gradually slipping into oblivion. I'll just add that I've just had a look at GardenBanter and the layout is awful. There is no threading. Posts are just dumped one after the other in an ad-hoc manner making it impossible to follow individual sub threads. -- David in Normandy. |
At the risk of being unpopular
"Jake" wrote in message ... On Thu, 7 Nov 2013 12:25:10 +0000, Sacha wrote: On 2013-11-07 10:33:42 +0000, David in Normandy said: On 07/11/2013 00:43, Sacha wrote: And there ARE good gardening blogs/web sites. Start with somewhere like http://www.thinkingardens.co.uk where the discussion, surprisingly about gardening topics, is active and interesting. Though probably you won't like the layout or something. I just took a look at that site but it doesn't appear to actually be open to posts from the general public; unless there is some hidden submission process followed by editorial review prior to publishing. Such a site, while interesting, does not appear to be a place for having an easy dialogue between gardeners. You have to register, afair. Slight correction - initial posts are by a mix of invitation or submission for acceptance and, granted, they will not be from the general public. However there is no need to register to comment on any article - the site operates a pro-active moderation system so anyone can submit a comment and a fair number of what I suppose are "general public" - me for example - do participate. Some articles are more down to earth than others. That is the case with most blogs. As David (Rance) has pointed out, it is only places like GardenBanter that offer any real "open discussion" alternative and, of course, GB actually requires registration. One possible plus point of this is that if you are a GB "member" reading a post by someone, you can look up their profile to find a bit more about them. How often have we needed to ask someone where they live, how big's the garden, which direction and all that. I will readily admit that if I put GardenBanter to one side there is no "one place" replacement for URG. I'm not going to speculate on if or how long GardenBanter would survive if it was not for URGlers providing the GB members with the answers to their questions! OTOH, without new blood URG won't survive and the million dollar question is how we breathe life into the group. We've enticed one lurker into the open. Any more out there? Please say hello. We only really bite each other. I lurk but I don't have experience and having read the comments in this thread, it has been stated that people without experience are not welcome, so I think it better I continue to lurk. -- http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/ |
At the risk of being unpopular
Large amount snipped
We've enticed one lurker into the open. Any more out there? Please say hello. We only really bite each other. I lurk but I don't have experience and having read the comments in this thread, it has been stated that people without experience are not welcome, so I think it better I continue to lurk. Now that would be a shame. Been lurking for a long time now, just enjoying the gentle ebb and flow of gardening topics, humour and general good feelings. I'm what they call a silver surfer, and a silvered haired gardener who sees the sense of "silly questions" I've asked a few in my time, and learned a great deal from having them answered, but more importantly expanded upon. If anyone does not like the topic then why not feel free to introduce a more weighty discussion, this is what groups are for surely. Just my twopence worth. |
At the risk of being unpopular
On 07/11/2013 11:42, Jake wrote:
In one FAQ there is reference to using Armillatox to kill vine weevil. Yep, lots probably use it for such purposes but doing so is illegal and advocating doing so could have repercussions! Not quite. Using it to kill Vine wevil is not illegal. It's telling people that it will kill wevil that's illegal, the same as saying that if you boil up rhubarb leaves you can use the resulting liquid as an insecticide, so I won't mention it. David @ a greatly improved side of Swansea Bay |
At the risk of being unpopular
On 07/11/2013 12:30, Sacha wrote:
On 2013-11-07 11:05:38 +0000, Bill Grey said: "Sacha" wrote in message ... I'm concerned for the future of this group which I've enjoyed hugely for 16 years. Some have been here longer than that. But given the number of those who used to post and who lurk (I know of a few, not many now) the response to the suggestion that we widen our horizons, look at a blog and consider looking at others and discussing their content, were - forgive the pun - seeds on stony ground. I don't know if this is because of disinterest, complacence or a belief that urg will continue into the mists of time. It won't. Sacha www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon www.helpforheroes.org.uk You have a point Sacha. C ouple of NGs that I have posted to have declined dramatically or gone to the wall. As you say, Facebook has taken over quite a lot, and although I have jined it I can't say I enjoy uing it. Nick who posts on this NG must surely have noticed the decline in correspondence in the Walking NG - it is largely subscribed to by technical questions about gear. A Fishing NG has just about finished, not having had a bite for a couple of years. An American NG - at least largely subscribed to by Americans, has slipped out of sight into Facebook. I have often said I'm no gardener compared to the contributors to URG, but I can sometimes offer suggetsions (though not intellectual gardening stuff) and enjoy receiving advice whenever I need some. The "old hands" are needed as reference points for us gardening dumbos. Bill Thanks for contributing to the discussion Bill and the same to John. I think those of us who enjoy urg and want it to continue have to look at introducing other topics. And we can do that by looking further afield and coming back here to discuss and learn. The number of regular posters here is now rather small and I have seen just the same on the uk food group. Numbers are way down. Yes, I think Facebook has taken over to a large extent and as discussion groups can be formed there, I think that will continue to be the case. To keep a newsgroup alive and an interesting place to be, we have to have more and more interesting topics but that is just my opinion. If others don't want that it's a group decision. Perhaps I am a Luddite, though I have been in computers for the last 45 years I will have to be dragged screaming before I join either facebook and twitter, the security side of it scares the hell out of me. |
At the risk of being unpopular
On 07/11/2013 15:49, Broadback wrote:
Perhaps I am a Luddite, though I have been in computers for the last 45 years I will have to be dragged screaming before I join either facebook and twitter, the security side of it scares the hell out of me. I feel the same way. I want to participate in topic related discussions without my real life identity or other aspects of my life being put on public display. I participate in several online forums and my identity is distinct in each of them with no overlap. People should be able to ask and respond to gardening related questions without giving away their entire life story to strangers in the process! -- David in Normandy. |
At the risk of being unpopular
On 07/11/2013 15:48, David Hill wrote:
On 07/11/2013 11:42, Jake wrote: In one FAQ there is reference to using Armillatox to kill vine weevil. Yep, lots probably use it for such purposes but doing so is illegal and advocating doing so could have repercussions! Not quite. Using it to kill Vine wevil is not illegal. It's telling people that it will kill wevil that's illegal, the same as saying that if you boil up rhubarb leaves you can use the resulting liquid as an insecticide, so I won't mention it. David @ a greatly improved side of Swansea Bay Not that you said any of the above, but hypothetically speaking, what would other people tend to say the resulting insecticide would be useful against? The fact I own several rhubarb plants and have various insect pests in my garden is merely circumstantial and not relevant. -- David in Normandy. |
At the risk of being unpopular
On 2013-11-07 14:27:30 +0000, Ophelia said:
"Jake" wrote in message ... snip We've enticed one lurker into the open. Any more out there? Please say hello. We only really bite each other. I lurk but I don't have experience and having read the comments in this thread, it has been stated that people without experience are not welcome, so I think it better I continue to lurk. I haven't seen that statement but it's certainly not the case at all. We've had lots of new gardeners coming to urg, often to ask one question, then go away. But they rarely go empty-handed, so to speak! One or two people can be a bit snarky with newcomers or those posting through Gardenbanter but they're not the normal urgler, ime. I would say that the majority of those of us who are left are on the helpful and welcoming side, or so I would hope! It's often been stated here that there's no such thing as a silly question but there may be a few daft answers! -- Sacha www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon www.helpforheroes.org.uk |
At the risk of being unpopular
"Sacha" wrote in message ... On 2013-11-07 14:27:30 +0000, Ophelia said: "Jake" wrote in message ... snip We've enticed one lurker into the open. Any more out there? Please say hello. We only really bite each other. I lurk but I don't have experience and having read the comments in this thread, it has been stated that people without experience are not welcome, so I think it better I continue to lurk. I haven't seen that statement but it's certainly not the case at all. We've had lots of new gardeners coming to urg, often to ask one question, then go away. But they rarely go empty-handed, so to speak! One or two people can be a bit snarky with newcomers or those posting through Gardenbanter but they're not the normal urgler, ime. I would say that the majority of those of us who are left are on the helpful and welcoming side, or so I would hope! It's often been stated here that there's no such thing as a silly question but there may be a few daft answers! I rarely ask a question but when I have, people have been kind enough to help. I was just concerned in this thread to read that the regulars are fed up with new people asking what are (to them) simple questions but to a newby things they really need to know if they are to learn. Especially if several new people ask the same questions as they arrive. If you want to make new people welcome, you are going to get a lot of those simple questions from beginners. I suspect that is what is happening with folk from that Banter group. Beginners cannot possibly join in with a discussion which is beyond their ken. (and which is one reason I lurk). As someone commented: "You know that most of the older members know all there is to know about gardening and have no interest in bringing in youngsters who are going to ask dam fool questions and who may one day know more than we do." Well by no means are all the inexperienced people who post asking questions youngsters! Especially me!! -- http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/ |
At the risk of being unpopular
On 2013-11-07 16:31:36 +0000, Ophelia said:
"Sacha" wrote in message ... On 2013-11-07 14:27:30 +0000, Ophelia said: "Jake" wrote in message ... snip We've enticed one lurker into the open. Any more out there? Please say hello. We only really bite each other. I lurk but I don't have experience and having read the comments in this thread, it has been stated that people without experience are not welcome, so I think it better I continue to lurk. I haven't seen that statement but it's certainly not the case at all. We've had lots of new gardeners coming to urg, often to ask one question, then go away. But they rarely go empty-handed, so to speak! One or two people can be a bit snarky with newcomers or those posting through Gardenbanter but they're not the normal urgler, ime. I would say that the majority of those of us who are left are on the helpful and welcoming side, or so I would hope! It's often been stated here that there's no such thing as a silly question but there may be a few daft answers! I rarely ask a question but when I have, people have been kind enough to help. I was just concerned in this thread to read that the regulars are fed up with new people asking what are (to them) simple questions but to a newby things they really need to know if they are to learn. Especially if several new people ask the same questions as they arrive. If you want to make new people welcome, you are going to get a lot of those simple questions from beginners. I suspect that is what is happening with folk from that Banter group. Beginners cannot possibly join in with a discussion which is beyond their ken. (and which is one reason I lurk). As someone commented: "You know that most of the older members know all there is to know about gardening and have no interest in bringing in youngsters who are going to ask dam fool questions and who may one day know more than we do." Well by no means are all the inexperienced people who post asking questions youngsters! Especially me!! Oh, I see. I think, knowing that poster, it was a joke about the few who are not very welcoming, versus the many who are! Ime, most urglers answer repetitive questions with patience and are usually anxious to help and advise. Personally, sometimes I find that posts from people new to gardening are more interesting. They can present a challenge in terms of helping with design questions, or how to use a garden and finally, what to plant in it. -- Sacha www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon www.helpforheroes.org.uk |
At the risk of being unpopular
On 2013-11-07 14:53:34 +0000, David in Normandy said:
On 07/11/2013 15:49, Broadback wrote: Perhaps I am a Luddite, though I have been in computers for the last 45 years I will have to be dragged screaming before I join either facebook and twitter, the security side of it scares the hell out of me. I feel the same way. I want to participate in topic related discussions without my real life identity or other aspects of my life being put on public display. I participate in several online forums and my identity is distinct in each of them with no overlap. People should be able to ask and respond to gardening related questions without giving away their entire life story to strangers in the process! Also possible on Facebook and Twitter where a lot of people use pseudonyms. Half the trouble that occurs on bits of Twitter I never see is caused by people posting vitriol anonymously! So far, I have never encountered anything remotely like that on either Twitter or Facebook. And again, people need know as little or as much as you choose. -- Sacha www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon www.helpforheroes.org.uk |
At the risk of being unpopular
On Thu, 7 Nov 2013 Jake wrote:
It also needs a new domain name. "u-r-g.co.uk" conveys nothing to the uninitiated. That's true, though there's little we can do about that as it belongs to Cormaic. No problem with keeping the existing domain but adding another which is more understandable e.g. uk-rec-gardening.co.uk. Indeed I doubt Cormaic would be bothered by any change in the domain name as long as we stuck with .co.uk (other.uk options cost more!). org.uk costs the same as co.uk. If we wanted to change, uk-rec-gardening.co.uk and ...org.uk are available, as are ukrecgardening.co.uk etc. You'd really need forum software such as PHPBB. Just had a look at that. It *might* just be a replacement for the usenet group. But, as you say, there are overheads. Is it possible that a new user could pose a question but not have it published until it has been "moderated" - as with a moderated newsgroup or mailing list. I think Cormaic now acts also as a small ISP so the cost to him is minimal. He said that he's willing to host it free of charge to us as long as we need it. Yep. Just checked. He's using Fasthosts as the registrar so assuming they're not charging some admin add-on, reg fee's only £3.49 a year + VAT. That seems to be the going rate just now. I've just registered a domain for Reading Crematorium Organists (called readingcremorganists.org.uk - what else?!) for about the same price. David -- David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK |
At the risk of being unpopular
"Sacha" wrote in message ... On 2013-11-07 16:31:36 +0000, Ophelia said: "Sacha" wrote in message ... On 2013-11-07 14:27:30 +0000, Ophelia said: "Jake" wrote in message ... snip We've enticed one lurker into the open. Any more out there? Please say hello. We only really bite each other. I lurk but I don't have experience and having read the comments in this thread, it has been stated that people without experience are not welcome, so I think it better I continue to lurk. I haven't seen that statement but it's certainly not the case at all. We've had lots of new gardeners coming to urg, often to ask one question, then go away. But they rarely go empty-handed, so to speak! One or two people can be a bit snarky with newcomers or those posting through Gardenbanter but they're not the normal urgler, ime. I would say that the majority of those of us who are left are on the helpful and welcoming side, or so I would hope! It's often been stated here that there's no such thing as a silly question but there may be a few daft answers! I rarely ask a question but when I have, people have been kind enough to help. I was just concerned in this thread to read that the regulars are fed up with new people asking what are (to them) simple questions but to a newby things they really need to know if they are to learn. Especially if several new people ask the same questions as they arrive. If you want to make new people welcome, you are going to get a lot of those simple questions from beginners. I suspect that is what is happening with folk from that Banter group. Beginners cannot possibly join in with a discussion which is beyond their ken. (and which is one reason I lurk). As someone commented: "You know that most of the older members know all there is to know about gardening and have no interest in bringing in youngsters who are going to ask dam fool questions and who may one day know more than we do." Well by no means are all the inexperienced people who post asking questions youngsters! Especially me!! Oh, I see. I think, knowing that poster, it was a joke about the few who are not very welcoming, versus the many who are! Ime, most urglers answer repetitive questions with patience and are usually anxious to help and advise. Personally, sometimes I find that posts from people new to gardening are more interesting. They can present a challenge in terms of helping with design questions, or how to use a garden and finally, what to plant in it. If that is the case then I am sure new people will post here and stay! I think I will mainly lurk because no only do I not know answers, I often don't know the questions either. I will post one thing though before I go back into lurkdom and hope it will be useful. -- http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/ |
At the risk of being unpopular
On 2013-11-07 17:00:46 +0000, Ophelia said:
"Sacha" wrote in message ... On 2013-11-07 16:31:36 +0000, Ophelia said: "Sacha" wrote in message ... On 2013-11-07 14:27:30 +0000, Ophelia said: "Jake" wrote in message ... snip We've enticed one lurker into the open. Any more out there? Please say hello. We only really bite each other. I lurk but I don't have experience and having read the comments in this thread, it has been stated that people without experience are not welcome, so I think it better I continue to lurk. I haven't seen that statement but it's certainly not the case at all. We've had lots of new gardeners coming to urg, often to ask one question, then go away. But they rarely go empty-handed, so to speak! One or two people can be a bit snarky with newcomers or those posting through Gardenbanter but they're not the normal urgler, ime. I would say that the majority of those of us who are left are on the helpful and welcoming side, or so I would hope! It's often been stated here that there's no such thing as a silly question but there may be a few daft answers! I rarely ask a question but when I have, people have been kind enough to help. I was just concerned in this thread to read that the regulars are fed up with new people asking what are (to them) simple questions but to a newby things they really need to know if they are to learn. Especially if several new people ask the same questions as they arrive. If you want to make new people welcome, you are going to get a lot of those simple questions from beginners. I suspect that is what is happening with folk from that Banter group. Beginners cannot possibly join in with a discussion which is beyond their ken. (and which is one reason I lurk). As someone commented: "You know that most of the older members know all there is to know about gardening and have no interest in bringing in youngsters who are going to ask dam fool questions and who may one day know more than we do." Well by no means are all the inexperienced people who post asking questions youngsters! Especially me!! Oh, I see. I think, knowing that poster, it was a joke about the few who are not very welcoming, versus the many who are! Ime, most urglers answer repetitive questions with patience and are usually anxious to help and advise. Personally, sometimes I find that posts from people new to gardening are more interesting. They can present a challenge in terms of helping with design questions, or how to use a garden and finally, what to plant in it. If that is the case then I am sure new people will post here and stay! I think I will mainly lurk because no only do I not know answers, I often don't know the questions either. I will post one thing though before I go back into lurkdom and hope it will be useful. Thank you and may I say that I hope it's absolutely wrong!! ;-) -- Sacha www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon www.helpforheroes.org.uk |
At the risk of being unpopular
On 07/11/2013 15:13, Jake wrote:
On Thu, 07 Nov 2013 14:48:56 +0000, David Hill wrote: On 07/11/2013 11:42, Jake wrote: In one FAQ there is reference to using Armillatox to kill vine weevil. Yep, lots probably use it for such purposes but doing so is illegal and advocating doing so could have repercussions! Not quite. Using it to kill Vine wevil is not illegal. It's telling people that it will kill wevil that's illegal, the same as saying that if you boil up rhubarb leaves you can use the resulting liquid as an insecticide, so I won't mention it. David @ a greatly improved side of Swansea Bay Quoted from RHS Web site: Active ingredient: Tar oils and tar acids Brand name(s): Armillatox (Armillatox remains on the market as a disinfectant, but is no longer permitted to be used for pesticidal purposes) Main use: Vine weevil eggs Last date for use: 31.12.03 But correctly, again from the RHS: "Only products approved by the government can be used as pesticides, so home-made pesticides brewed from concoctions of rhubarb, cigarette butts or even washing-up liquid are now outside the law." When I spoke to the chap who runs the firm producing Armillatox he said that they were no longer allowed to sell it as a pesticide unless they submitted it for testing at a cost running into the thousands of pounds. What you use it for after buying it is up to you. I will say it's a good deterrent for badgers, they don't like the smell, I've also used it where I get a lot of cars parking at night, the smell can linger for a few weeks, any question as to why I sprayed it, it's because certain people get out of their cars and relieve themselves in the gateway, so naturally I need disinfectant. |
At the risk of being unpopular
On 07/11/2013 16:31, Ophelia wrote:
"Sacha" wrote in message ... On 2013-11-07 14:27:30 +0000, Ophelia said: "Jake" wrote in message ... snip We've enticed one lurker into the open. Any more out there? Please say hello. We only really bite each other. I lurk but I don't have experience and having read the comments in this thread, it has been stated that people without experience are not welcome, so I think it better I continue to lurk. I haven't seen that statement but it's certainly not the case at all. We've had lots of new gardeners coming to urg, often to ask one question, then go away. But they rarely go empty-handed, so to speak! One or two people can be a bit snarky with newcomers or those posting through Gardenbanter but they're not the normal urgler, ime. I would say that the majority of those of us who are left are on the helpful and welcoming side, or so I would hope! It's often been stated here that there's no such thing as a silly question but there may be a few daft answers! I rarely ask a question but when I have, people have been kind enough to help. I was just concerned in this thread to read that the regulars are fed up with new people asking what are (to them) simple questions but to a newby things they really need to know if they are to learn. Especially if several new people ask the same questions as they arrive. If you want to make new people welcome, you are going to get a lot of those simple questions from beginners. I suspect that is what is happening with folk from that Banter group. Beginners cannot possibly join in with a discussion which is beyond their ken. (and which is one reason I lurk). As someone commented: "You know that most of the older members know all there is to know about gardening and have no interest in bringing in youngsters who are going to ask dam fool questions and who may one day know more than we do." Well by no means are all the inexperienced people who post asking questions youngsters! Especially me!! That comment was mine and was Sarcastic, A genuine problem is always welcome as far as I am concerned, or a question that has given conflicting answers. But I don't have time for people who ask a question that they can look up on google but would rather have someone else look it up for them. They remind me of the person who called in one night at around 9.30pm when I was making up the flowers for a wedding the next morning, "I just wanted to ask you how I should plant these azaleas I bought in Woolworth s today" I told them to go back to Woollies and ask, David @ a still almost precipitation free side of Swansea Bay. |
At the risk of being unpopular
"Sacha" wrote in message ... On 2013-11-07 17:00:46 +0000, Ophelia said: "Sacha" wrote in message ... On 2013-11-07 16:31:36 +0000, Ophelia said: "Sacha" wrote in message ... On 2013-11-07 14:27:30 +0000, Ophelia said: "Jake" wrote in message ... snip We've enticed one lurker into the open. Any more out there? Please say hello. We only really bite each other. I lurk but I don't have experience and having read the comments in this thread, it has been stated that people without experience are not welcome, so I think it better I continue to lurk. I haven't seen that statement but it's certainly not the case at all. We've had lots of new gardeners coming to urg, often to ask one question, then go away. But they rarely go empty-handed, so to speak! One or two people can be a bit snarky with newcomers or those posting through Gardenbanter but they're not the normal urgler, ime. I would say that the majority of those of us who are left are on the helpful and welcoming side, or so I would hope! It's often been stated here that there's no such thing as a silly question but there may be a few daft answers! I rarely ask a question but when I have, people have been kind enough to help. I was just concerned in this thread to read that the regulars are fed up with new people asking what are (to them) simple questions but to a newby things they really need to know if they are to learn. Especially if several new people ask the same questions as they arrive. If you want to make new people welcome, you are going to get a lot of those simple questions from beginners. I suspect that is what is happening with folk from that Banter group. Beginners cannot possibly join in with a discussion which is beyond their ken. (and which is one reason I lurk). As someone commented: "You know that most of the older members know all there is to know about gardening and have no interest in bringing in youngsters who are going to ask dam fool questions and who may one day know more than we do." Well by no means are all the inexperienced people who post asking questions youngsters! Especially me!! Oh, I see. I think, knowing that poster, it was a joke about the few who are not very welcoming, versus the many who are! Ime, most urglers answer repetitive questions with patience and are usually anxious to help and advise. Personally, sometimes I find that posts from people new to gardening are more interesting. They can present a challenge in terms of helping with design questions, or how to use a garden and finally, what to plant in it. If that is the case then I am sure new people will post here and stay! I think I will mainly lurk because no only do I not know answers, I often don't know the questions either. I will post one thing though before I go back into lurkdom and hope it will be useful. Thank you and may I say that I hope it's absolutely wrong!! ;-) Groannnnnnnnnn so do I!!!! -- http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/ |
At the risk of being unpopular
"David Hill" wrote in message ... That comment was mine and was Sarcastic, A genuine problem is always welcome as far as I am concerned, or a question that has given conflicting answers. :)) ok:) -- http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/ |
At the risk of being unpopular
On 07/11/2013 20:08, Jake wrote:
Essential requirement for a moderator is 5 mile thick skin. I'm a moderator on a very large forum and yes, aside from diplomatic skills rivalling those of an international diplomat, a thick skin certainly helps! lol You also need to be a detective and have a keen nose for detecting bullshit. I've been called every insult imaginable at some time or other and even been threatened with physical harm. Another good reason for keeping one's real life identity separate from forum identities - that's the thing I dislike about facebook, its all interconnected. -- David in Normandy. |
At the risk of being unpopular
On 2013-11-07 18:58:52 +0000, Ophelia said:
"Sacha" wrote in message ... snip I will post one thing though before I go back into lurkdom and hope it will be useful. Thank you and may I say that I hope it's absolutely wrong!! ;-) Groannnnnnnnnn so do I!!!! Purely as speculation someone else said that to me today - about a bad winter, I mean. His belief is that, having had a good summer, we'll now get a hard winter! I don't think 'optimism' is in his dictionary! -- Sacha www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon |
At the risk of being unpopular
Well Sacha, you certainly made this group come to life
today, revealing that there are many more lurkers(like me) out there that only contribute occasionally. I did subscribe a few weeks ago to a DIY group out of curiousity (DIY is really a pet hate of mine - I just get forced to do it!). I gave up after about a week, as it was running at around 200 posts a day! KEEP URG GOING I SAY -- Roger T 700 ft up in Mid-Wales --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com |
Quote:
What I used to enjoy most about urg was the way in which it led into real-life relationships. But that's more a function of the group than the means by which it communicates. If we did go to a forum, gardenbanter has the advantage of already being there, cost free. It could do with some moderators - good mods can make a big difference to a group. But we can't solve that problem. Running our own forum would mean someone willing to maintain it, some way of raising the money to run it, and some more people willing to be moderators. |
At the risk of being unpopular
"sacha" wrote in message ... On 2013-11-07 18:58:52 +0000, Ophelia said: "Sacha" wrote in message ... snip I will post one thing though before I go back into lurkdom and hope it will be useful. Thank you and may I say that I hope it's absolutely wrong!! ;-) Groannnnnnnnnn so do I!!!! Purely as speculation someone else said that to me today - about a bad winter, I mean. His belief is that, having had a good summer, we'll now get a hard winter! I don't think 'optimism' is in his dictionary! Not sure about that. From the posts here not everyone has had a good summer. Well, not ideal anyway! -- http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/ |
At the risk of being unpopular
On 2013-11-07 20:33:35 +0000, Ophelia said:
"sacha" wrote in message ... On 2013-11-07 18:58:52 +0000, Ophelia said: "Sacha" wrote in message ... snip I will post one thing though before I go back into lurkdom and hope it will be useful. Thank you and may I say that I hope it's absolutely wrong!! ;-) Groannnnnnnnnn so do I!!!! Purely as speculation someone else said that to me today - about a bad winter, I mean. His belief is that, having had a good summer, we'll now get a hard winter! I don't think 'optimism' is in his dictionary! Not sure about that. From the posts here not everyone has had a good summer. Well, not ideal anyway! I find it quite amusing that the new definition of 'a good summer' is - what - 5 weeks of sunshine! -- Sacha www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon www.helpforheroes.org.uk |
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