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Derelict land in Glasgow used as community allotments for the last three years have been destroyed by owners without warning, so that allotmenteers were unable to retrieve plants and materials.
Govanhill's guerrilla gardeners find their waste ground allotments bulldozed | UK news | theguardian.com |
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"kay" wrote
Derelict land in Glasgow used as community allotments for the last three years have been destroyed by owners without warning, so that allotmenteers were unable to retrieve plants and materials. 'Govanhill's guerrilla gardeners find their waste ground allotments bulldozed | UK news | theguardian.com' (http://tinyurl.com/kb4erwo) The gardeners knew it couldn't last but for the developers to destroy everything without notice is ignorance beyond belief. What message are they sending the locals? If they want local help or cooperation from the locals in the future they have destroyed any chance now and by alienating everyone possibly made their own job more difficult. Stupidity and short sightedness doesn't come close. -- Regards. Bob Hobden. Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK |
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On 15/11/2013 12:18, Bob Hobden wrote:
"kay" wrote Derelict land in Glasgow used as community allotments for the last three years have been destroyed by owners without warning, so that allotmenteers were unable to retrieve plants and materials. 'Govanhill's guerrilla gardeners find their waste ground allotments bulldozed | UK news | theguardian.com' (http://tinyurl.com/kb4erwo) The gardeners knew it couldn't last but for the developers to destroy everything without notice is ignorance beyond belief. What message are they sending the locals? If they want local help or cooperation from the locals in the future they have destroyed any chance now and by alienating everyone possibly made their own job more difficult. Stupidity and short sightedness doesn't come close. Indeed. The landowners may have followed the letter of the law, but hardly the spirit of the law. To all intents and purposes they have (allegedly) vandalised or stolen crops et al belong to the gardeners. It would not have been hard to post a warning at the site to indicate that development was due to proceed. The gardeners using the site could then have removed their crops and equipment. By law (assuming that Scottish law is not vastly different to ours in this regard), there must have been at least one planning notice posted in the vicinity when permission to build was being sought. It would not (as a local) be hard to learn when this permission would run out. Assuming this was the case, it might be argued that the gardeners should have known when the land would be required by the owner/developer. All this notwithstanding, it was a despicable thing to do without any form of warning. I hope the gardeners get their new allotment site in time for next season. -- Spider. On high ground in SE London gardening on heavy clay |
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On 15/11/2013 13:47, Spider wrote:
On 15/11/2013 12:18, Bob Hobden wrote: "kay" wrote Derelict land in Glasgow used as community allotments for the last three years have been destroyed by owners without warning, so that allotmenteers were unable to retrieve plants and materials. 'Govanhill's guerrilla gardeners find their waste ground allotments bulldozed | UK news | theguardian.com' (http://tinyurl.com/kb4erwo) The gardeners knew it couldn't last but for the developers to destroy everything without notice is ignorance beyond belief. What message are they sending the locals? If they want local help or cooperation from the locals in the future they have destroyed any chance now and by alienating everyone possibly made their own job more difficult. Stupidity and short sightedness doesn't come close. Indeed. The landowners may have followed the letter of the law, but hardly the spirit of the law. To all intents and purposes they have (allegedly) vandalised or stolen crops et al belong to the gardeners. It would not have been hard to post a warning at the site to indicate that development was due to proceed. The gardeners using the site could then have removed their crops and equipment. By law (assuming that Scottish law is not vastly different to ours in this regard), there must have been at least one planning notice posted in the vicinity when permission to build was being sought. It would not (as a local) be hard to learn when this permission would run out. Assuming this was the case, it might be argued that the gardeners should have known when the land would be required by the owner/developer. All this notwithstanding, it was a despicable thing to do without any form of warning. I hope the gardeners get their new allotment site in time for next season. Give notice and all the protesters and green weirdos would have been out in force. Jock probably went in with his machine and the attitude "it's more than my Jobs Worth to leave anything". Now the ground is clear they can apply for planing with no chance of anyone saying that the ground is being used for anything. |
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On 15/11/2013 14:03, David Hill wrote:
On 15/11/2013 13:47, Spider wrote: On 15/11/2013 12:18, Bob Hobden wrote: "kay" wrote Derelict land in Glasgow used as community allotments for the last three years have been destroyed by owners without warning, so that allotmenteers were unable to retrieve plants and materials. 'Govanhill's guerrilla gardeners find their waste ground allotments bulldozed | UK news | theguardian.com' (http://tinyurl.com/kb4erwo) The gardeners knew it couldn't last but for the developers to destroy everything without notice is ignorance beyond belief. What message are they sending the locals? If they want local help or cooperation from the locals in the future they have destroyed any chance now and by alienating everyone possibly made their own job more difficult. Stupidity and short sightedness doesn't come close. Indeed. The landowners may have followed the letter of the law, but hardly the spirit of the law. To all intents and purposes they have (allegedly) vandalised or stolen crops et al belong to the gardeners. It would not have been hard to post a warning at the site to indicate that development was due to proceed. The gardeners using the site could then have removed their crops and equipment. By law (assuming that Scottish law is not vastly different to ours in this regard), there must have been at least one planning notice posted in the vicinity when permission to build was being sought. It would not (as a local) be hard to learn when this permission would run out. Assuming this was the case, it might be argued that the gardeners should have known when the land would be required by the owner/developer. All this notwithstanding, it was a despicable thing to do without any form of warning. I hope the gardeners get their new allotment site in time for next season. Give notice and all the protesters and green weirdos would have been out in force. Jock probably went in with his machine and the attitude "it's more than my Jobs Worth to leave anything". Now the ground is clear they can apply for planing with no chance of anyone saying that the ground is being used for anything. Yes, David, you may very well be right. Such a waste, though, of the crops and any good feeling that may have prevailed had it been done differently. -- Spider. On high ground in SE London gardening on heavy clay |
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On Friday, November 15, 2013 2:03:23 PM UTC, Dave Hill wrote:
On 15/11/2013 13:47, Spider wrote: On 15/11/2013 12:18, Bob Hobden wrote: "kay" wrote Derelict land in Glasgow used as community allotments for the last three years have been destroyed by owners without warning, so that allotmenteers were unable to retrieve plants and materials. 'Govanhill's guerrilla gardeners find their waste ground allotments bulldozed | UK news | theguardian.com' (http://tinyurl.com/kb4erwo) The gardeners knew it couldn't last but for the developers to destroy everything without notice is ignorance beyond belief. What message are they sending the locals? If they want local help or cooperation from the locals in the future they have destroyed any chance now and by alienating everyone possibly made their own job more difficult. Stupidity and short sightedness doesn't come close. Indeed. The landowners may have followed the letter of the law, but hardly the spirit of the law. To all intents and purposes they have (allegedly) vandalised or stolen crops et al belong to the gardeners. It would not have been hard to post a warning at the site to indicate that development was due to proceed. The gardeners using the site could then have removed their crops and equipment. By law (assuming that Scottish law is not vastly different to ours in this regard), there must have been at least one planning notice posted in the vicinity when permission to build was being sought. It would not (as a local) be hard to learn when this permission would run out. Assuming this was the case, it might be argued that the gardeners should have known when the land would be required by the owner/developer. All this notwithstanding, it was a despicable thing to do without any form of warning. I hope the gardeners get their new allotment site in time for next season. Give notice and all the protesters and green weirdos would have been out in force. Jock probably went in with his machine and the attitude "it's more than my Jobs Worth to leave anything". Now the ground is clear they can apply for planing with no chance of anyone saying that the ground is being used for anything. Yep, you beat me to it. If the owner had done the right thing and said I want it back, you can have it another season, to give you time to grow anything planted, harvest and replant somewhere else, I don't think he would have been repaid with the same kindness. Yep, protestors and legal challenges (someone would probably fund them), dragging it on and costing money. |
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On 2013-11-15 17:28:59 +0000, Janet said:
In article , says... Indeed. The landowners may have followed the letter of the law, but hardly the spirit of the law. If you had more clue about Scottish law you might be in a better position to pass comment. snip Instead of reverting to your default position of 'downright bloody rude', perhaps you could consider explaining things politely. For a change. -- Sacha www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon |
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On 15/11/2013 18:34, sacha wrote:
On 2013-11-15 17:28:59 +0000, Janet said: In article , says... Indeed. The landowners may have followed the letter of the law, but hardly the spirit of the law. If you had more clue about Scottish law you might be in a better position to pass comment. snip Instead of reverting to your default position of 'downright bloody rude', perhaps you could consider explaining things politely. For a change. Thank you, Sacha. It was very rude but, to be honest, I'm not interested in an explanation from that quarter. If a well-mannered Scot wishes to explain the implications of Scottish Law where it pertains to the question here, I shall be pleased to take time to read it and learn from it. Rudeness is not something I wish to learn more about. -- Spider. On high ground in SE London gardening on heavy clay |
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In article , david@abacus-
nurseries.co.uk says... Jock probably went in with his machine and the attitude "it's more than my Jobs Worth to leave anything". The exact opposite is the case; the clearance contractors were sympathetic, and helped the guerrilla gardeners move trees and raised beds to safety. Now the ground is clear they can apply for planing with no chance of anyone saying that the ground is being used for anything. The planning permission was granted BEFORE the gardens were started. Here's a telling picture of the "gardens". http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/lo...ll-south-seed- community-garden-2787679 " we must reluctantly accept that the landowners were within their rights to reclaim the space..... ?We managed to speak to the contractors while they were in the process of dismantling the site. ?They were sympathetic to our situation and have assisted us in salvaging what remained of the raised beds and timber, and even some fruit trees." The bottom line is: South Seeds started a short-term temporary project without permission of the property-developer landowner, knew, and told the gardeners from the outset the site had planning permission on it and would be cleared for building 8 new houses. It's in a run down area of decrepit tenements where new housing is desperately needed. If you were a taxpayer in Scotland how would you feel about the quarter of a million funding South Seeds got from the Scottish govt in 2012? http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/En...e/howyoucanhel p/communities/ClimateChallengeFund/projects/CCF10 "South Seeds - the South Seeds Energy Catalyst project aims to deliver practical advice and support to improve energy efficiency in properties in the South Glasgow area by working with local energy partners to maximise uptake of efficiency measures cut fuel bills and improve people's lives. Tenements will be encouraged to tackle energy efficiency by setting up Close Troops in which people will work together to improve close efficiency and work alongside the local community to work together to refurbish and manage green spaces for local food growing. £227,570" /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ Janet.(Scotland) |
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"kay" wrote in message ... Derelict land in Glasgow used as community allotments for the last three years have been destroyed by owners without warning, so that allotmenteers were unable to retrieve plants and materials. 'Govanhill's guerrilla gardeners find their waste ground allotments bulldozed | UK news | theguardian.com' (http://tinyurl.com/kb4erwo) It's sad to hear but I'm not surprised. If you grow somewhere you haven't permission to, this kind of thing will always happen. All land belongs to someone (or a council) and if you kind of squat on it, you have to be prepared to be evicted. Having said that, it's still a pity but they must have known it was risky. Tina |
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On Friday, 15 November 2013 19:20:08 UTC, kay wrote:
I don't think they were looking for that. 24 hours would have done. More than enough time to serve legal papers and ensure a lengthy legal process. It's amazing how quickly activists can mobilise and take over an allotment, putting obstacles in the way and chaining themselves to stuff. Do you not think, that the developer thought that people would just come and take their plants etc. without causing problems are challenging them, they would not have been happy to give 24 hour's notice? Let's face it, they'd waited over 3 years, what difference would another day make? Don't get me wrong, I think it's very sad, I have two allotments myself, so I know how they must feel. But you do have to ask yourself, why did they give no notice, when they'd already waited so long? They must have had some concerns that there would be trouble and you can't blame them. |
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"kay" wrote in message ...
Derelict land in Glasgow used as community allotments for the last three years have been destroyed by owners without warning, so that allotmenteers were unable to retrieve plants and materials. 'Govanhill's guerrilla gardeners find their waste ground allotments bulldozed | UK news | theguardian.com' (http://tinyurl.com/kb4erwo) -- kay I have watched this thread with great interest. In England, the rule applies, or at least 'did' apply, that if you claim a piece of land and use it and it is not challenged within seven years, it's 'yours'. Perhaps the same rule applies North of the Border and the land owner had to put his mark on the land. I have reason to believe that that policy was applied to half an acre of land which was attached to a house I bought which is now built on. Could that land owner fear the same consequence? Mike --------------------------------------------------------------- www.hmscollingwoodassociation.com www.rneba.org.uk |
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On Saturday, November 16, 2013 6:08:53 PM UTC, kay wrote:
'Road_Hog[_2_ Wrote: ;995299'] Do you not think, that the developer thought that people would just come and take their plants etc. without causing problems are challenging them, they would not have been happy to give 24 hour's notice? Let's face it, they'd waited over 3 years, what difference would another day make? The 3 years was the length of time the people had been using it as a garden; the site had been derelict for a few years before that. So I don't think there's anything to suggest that the delay in development was anything to do with the garden. You completely missed the point. Nowhere did I say that the allotments delayed the development. The point i made was, that the developer had planning permission, but sat on it for three years, which is not uncommon, to wait until the market picks up. Therefore another 24 hours would have been no problem. If you've waited 3 years then another day is nothing. There was a good reason why they didn't wait another day (to give notice) and that reason is the hassle they would have got. |
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On 2013-11-17 08:39:44 +0000, Road_Hog said:
On Saturday, November 16, 2013 6:08:53 PM UTC, kay wrote: 'Road_Hog[_2_ Wrote: ;995299'] Do you not think, that the developer thought that people would just come and take their plants etc. without causing problems are challenging them, they would not have been happy to give 24 hour's notice? Let's face it, they'd waited over 3 years, what difference would another day make? The 3 years was the length of time the people had been using it as a garden; the site had been derelict for a few years before that. So I don't think there's anything to suggest that the delay in development was anything to do with the garden. You completely missed the point. Nowhere did I say that the allotments delayed the development. The point i made was, that the developer had planning permission, but sat on it for three years, which is not uncommon, to wait until the market picks up. Therefore another 24 hours would have been no problem. If you've waited 3 years then another day is nothing. There was a good reason why they didn't wait another day (to give notice) and that reason is the hassle they would have got. Land banking? -- Sacha www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon www.helpforheroes.org.uk |
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"sacha" wrote in message ... On 2013-11-15 17:28:59 +0000, Janet said: In article , says... Indeed. The landowners may have followed the letter of the law, but hardly the spirit of the law. If you had more clue about Scottish law you might be in a better position to pass comment. snip Instead of reverting to your default position of 'downright bloody rude', perhaps you could consider explaining things politely. For a change. -- Sacha www.hillhousenursery.com South Devon In the light of some guessing, I was pleased to read Janet's concise - not rude - explanation of the various conditions that apply in ths case. I don't wish to be taking sides, simply stating what I consider to be a reasonable response. Bill |
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"'Mike'" wrote in message ... "kay" wrote in message ... In England, the rule applies, or at least 'did' apply, that if you claim a piece of land and use it and it is not challenged within seven years, it's 'yours'. Perhaps the same rule applies North of the Border and the land owner had to put his mark on the land. Mike I live in Wales, and as I understand it you can claim a piece of land if you have had "undisturbed usage" for a period of 13 years ( I'm open to correction of course) Bill |
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"Bill Grey" wrote in message ... "'Mike'" wrote in message ... "kay" wrote in message ... In England, the rule applies, or at least 'did' apply, that if you claim a piece of land and use it and it is not challenged within seven years, it's 'yours'. Perhaps the same rule applies North of the Border and the land owner had to put his mark on the land. Mike I live in Wales, and as I understand it you can claim a piece of land if you have had "undisturbed usage" for a period of 13 years ( I'm open to correction of course) Bill yes, that's true but if your new neighbour decides to fight against it will be not easy. My new neighbours have proved to be more than difficult about sharing a drop kerb and they did some kind of blackmail stuff about it. Like let us put up a huge wall, 3 feet in front of your kitchen window.. I said no and got my car blocked in. too bad for them, I had to spend a whole lot of money for a drop kerb (£1400) but the moment one of those cars blocks it, it's either me or the police. They'd probably prefer the police, tbh :-) I've lost my niceness with them. It's sad, we would could have been friends before they tried all sorts of things, like trying to make me sign away some of my land to them. I think not! I said I'd run it past my solicitor which scared them off. I loathe them. Tweed |
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"Christina Websell" wrote in message ... "Bill Grey" wrote in message ... "'Mike'" wrote in message ... "kay" wrote in message ... In England, the rule applies, or at least 'did' apply, that if you claim a piece of land and use it and it is not challenged within seven years, it's 'yours'. Perhaps the same rule applies North of the Border and the land owner had to put his mark on the land. Mike I live in Wales, and as I understand it you can claim a piece of land if you have had "undisturbed usage" for a period of 13 years ( I'm open to correction of course) Bill yes, that's true but if your new neighbour decides to fight against it will be not easy. My new neighbours have proved to be more than difficult about sharing a drop kerb and they did some kind of blackmail stuff about it. Like let us put up a huge wall, 3 feet in front of your kitchen window.. I said no and got my car blocked in. too bad for them, I had to spend a whole lot of money for a drop kerb (£1400) but the moment one of those cars blocks it, it's either me or the police. They'd probably prefer the police, tbh :-) I've lost my niceness with them. It's sad, we would could have been friends before they tried all sorts of things, like trying to make me sign away some of my land to them. I think not! I said I'd run it past my solicitor which scared them off. I loathe them. Tweed Let's hope commonsense prevails, but from what you say it may snow in hell first. Bill |
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