I have some "stepping stones" set in to my lawn: 9x18 cms and also a
couple of paving slabs : 60x75 cms which have sunk.
Is it better to relay them on "blobs" of cement rather than just
trying to get a sand base nice and level. I am think if large blobs
of cement are used it will be easier to get them level by tapping them
down with a rubber mallet. (The paving slabs take no vehicles)

On 26/04/2014 21:21, James Jones wrote:


I have some "stepping stones" set in to my lawn: 9x18 cms and also a
couple of paving slabs : 60x75 cms which have sunk.
Is it better to relay them on "blobs" of cement rather than just
trying to get a sand base nice and level. I am think if large blobs
of cement are used it will be easier to get them level by tapping them
down with a rubber mallet. (The paving slabs take no vehicles)

The dab and dot style of slab laying is always a bodge really - and the
results never really lasts well IME.

Assuming the base if well compacted and firm (if not get a some bags of
type 1 MoT, rake out a thin sub base screed of it, and then compact it
down well (plank and a lump/sledge hammer will do small areas)

Then I would say you will find it easier to just knock up a dry[1] mix
of weak sand and cement, and level them on that as if you were doing it
on a screed of sand. Water them once down and the moisture in the soil
and what you add will cure the mortar bed. The small amount of cement
binder will then keep it in place and stop it being migrated by insects,
or spreading out at the edges etc. It also means the slab is fully
supported and should not crack with a load on it.

[1] Use sharp or "grit" sand, and no more added water than what is in
the sand. Add cement at anything from 6:1 or even 10:1. That will be
adequate to act as a binder - you don't need massive point load strength
here.

--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

On 26/04/2014 21:21, James Jones wrote:


I have some "stepping stones" set in to my lawn: 9x18 cms and also a
couple of paving slabs : 60x75 cms which have sunk.
Is it better to relay them on "blobs" of cement rather than just
trying to get a sand base nice and level. I am think if large blobs
of cement are used it will be easier to get them level by tapping them
down with a rubber mallet. (The paving slabs take no vehicles)

Just use soil, you can get your level before putting down the slabs.
in 2 or 3 years the slabs will appear to have sunk again, it is in fact
the level of the lawn rising, thanks to worms.
Remember you should keep the slabs just below the level of the lawn to
prevent damage to your mower.

On 26/04/14 22:15, David Hill wrote:
On 26/04/2014 21:21, James Jones wrote:


I have some "stepping stones" set in to my lawn: 9x18 cms and also a
couple of paving slabs : 60x75 cms which have sunk.
Is it better to relay them on "blobs" of cement rather than just
trying to get a sand base nice and level. I am think if large blobs
of cement are used it will be easier to get them level by tapping them
down with a rubber mallet. (The paving slabs take no vehicles)

Just use soil, you can get your level before putting down the slabs.
in 2 or 3 years the slabs will appear to have sunk again, it is in fact
the level of the lawn rising, thanks to worms.
Remember you should keep the slabs just below the level of the lawn to
prevent damage to your mower.

And sand also works fine. I've just reused a few random slabs as
stepping stones. Yes - the first couple are a bit fiddly but it gets
quicker and it's not really a huge hassle.

"James Jones" wrote in message
news


I have some "stepping stones" set in to my lawn: 9x18 cms and also a
couple of paving slabs : 60x75 cms which have sunk.
Is it better to relay them on "blobs" of cement rather than just
trying to get a sand base nice and level. I am think if large blobs
of cement are used it will be easier to get them level by tapping them

down with a rubber mallet. (The paving slabs take no vehicles)

They sank because they are on topsoil which migrates out from under them
helped by worms/moles etc.
Lift them, dig out the topsoil and fill with hard core (any old bricks etc),
tamp it down as hard as you can and top off with sand.
Don't use any cement, there's no point, it's just a bodge method.

Have they sunk? Or has the lawn level risen. that seems to be the way things
go around here.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"James Jones" wrote in message
news


I have some "stepping stones" set in to my lawn: 9x18 cms and also a
couple of paving slabs : 60x75 cms which have sunk.
Is it better to relay them on "blobs" of cement rather than just
trying to get a sand base nice and level. I am think if large blobs
of cement are used it will be easier to get them level by tapping them
down with a rubber mallet. (The paving slabs take no vehicles)

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message ...

Have they sunk? Or has the lawn level risen. that seems to be the way
things go around here.
Brian

--
And whatever method you employ - do not incorporate the "blob" system - lol

Pete

On 26/04/2014 21:21, James Jones wrote:


I have some "stepping stones" set in to my lawn: 9x18 cms and also a
couple of paving slabs : 60x75 cms which have sunk.
Is it better to relay them on "blobs" of cement rather than just
trying to get a sand base nice and level. I am think if large blobs
of cement are used it will be easier to get them level by tapping them
down with a rubber mallet. (The paving slabs take no vehicles)


Blobbing paving slabs is a no no way to lay them.

Use sharp sand and cement at a ratio of about 8:1 and spread the mix all
across where the slab will sit. Level it as required, and if too low in
one corner , just put more sand under it.

In message , John
Rumm writes
On 26/04/2014 21:21, James Jones wrote:


I have some "stepping stones" set in to my lawn: 9x18 cms and also a
couple of paving slabs : 60x75 cms which have sunk.
Is it better to relay them on "blobs" of cement rather than just
trying to get a sand base nice and level. I am think if large blobs
of cement are used it will be easier to get them level by tapping them
down with a rubber mallet. (The paving slabs take no vehicles)

The dab and dot style of slab laying is always a bodge really - and the
results never really lasts well IME.

Assuming the base if well compacted and firm (if not get a some bags of
type 1 MoT, rake out a thin sub base screed of it, and then compact it
down well (plank and a lump/sledge hammer will do small areas)

Then I would say you will find it easier to just knock up a dry[1] mix
of weak sand and cement, and level them on that as if you were doing it
on a screed of sand. Water them once down and the moisture in the soil
and what you add will cure the mortar bed. The small amount of cement
binder will then keep it in place and stop it being migrated by
insects, or spreading out at the edges etc. It also means the slab is
fully supported and should not crack with a load on it.

[1] Use sharp or "grit" sand, and no more added water than what is in
the sand. Add cement at anything from 6:1 or even 10:1. That will be
adequate to act as a binder - you don't need massive point load
strength here.

As above except I find creating ridges in the sand/cement dry mix by
drawing the surface with a garden rake helps with slab levelling.


--
Tim Lamb

On 27/04/2014 07:20, harryagain wrote:
"James Jones" wrote in message
news


I have some "stepping stones" set in to my lawn: 9x18 cms and also a
couple of paving slabs : 60x75 cms which have sunk.
Is it better to relay them on "blobs" of cement rather than just
trying to get a sand base nice and level. I am think if large blobs
of cement are used it will be easier to get them level by tapping them

down with a rubber mallet. (The paving slabs take no vehicles)

They sank because they are on topsoil which migrates out from under them
helped by worms/moles etc.
Lift them, dig out the topsoil and fill with hard core (any old bricks etc),
tamp it down as hard as you can

So far so good....

and top off with sand.
Don't use any cement, there's no point, it's just a bodge method.

Could I suggest you go read some of the British standards on paving
techniques? To describe using a bound bedding layer (i.e. one containing
cement or lime) as a "bodge" is inaccurate and misleading.

Generally, "sand only" screeds tend to be used for smaller element
paving such as blocks and sets, and screeds with a binder used for
larger slabs - however this is not a hard and fast rule.

However the critical requirement of any sand only screed is that the
edge is adequately retained - typically with a mortared in place bedded
on course of blocks or edging stones, but sometimes just a concrete
haunch. Without the edge restraint, the sand will migrate out, and will
also get migrated by insects. and worms etc.

For chapter and verse on bedding courses, have a look at:

http://www.pavingexpert.com/layflag3.htm#bornb

For general on flags:

http://www.pavingexpert.com/layflag1.htm


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"James Jones" wrote in message
news


I have some "stepping stones" set in to my lawn: 9x18 cms and also a
couple of paving slabs : 60x75 cms which have sunk.
Is it better to relay them on "blobs" of cement rather than just
trying to get a sand base nice and level. I am think if large blobs
of cement are used it will be easier to get them level by tapping them
down with a rubber mallet. (The paving slabs take no vehicles)

As you will have gathered from the other posts, they are always going to end
up below the lawn surface, either because the lawn is rising, or the worms
are removing soil from under them. In this case, I would just lift them and
put sharp sand in the holes then replace the slabs. When doing it from
scratch, I would just lay the slabs on the lawn where you want them, and let
them sink, it doesn't take long.

Steve

On Sun, 27 Apr 2014 14:28:03 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

However the critical requirement of any sand only screed is that the
edge is adequately retained - typically with a mortared in place bedded
on course of blocks or edging stones, but sometimes just a concrete
haunch. Without the edge restraint, the sand will migrate out, and will
also get migrated by insects. and worms etc.

The slabs in my garden were layed by my brother in about 1980; if there was
any sand, it's long since disappeared. The slabs are still firm and dead
level. This is almost certainly due to the soil being somewhat heavy and it
hadn't been disturbed at all since at least WW2!

On the other hand, in a friend's garden that had a high water table, light
soil and loadsamuck, some of the (fortunately 2x3) slabs were only about 25%
supported by anything - they definitely needed sand and binder and probably
some hardcore as well.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

"James Jones" wrote in message
news


I have some "stepping stones" set in to my lawn: 9x18 cms and also a
couple of paving slabs : 60x75 cms which have sunk.
Is it better to relay them on "blobs" of cement rather than just
trying to get a sand base nice and level. I am think if large blobs
of cement are used it will be easier to get them level by tapping them
down with a rubber mallet. (The paving slabs take no vehicles)

I will probably be at odds with everyone else but for any paths across grass
I just use soil to level and lay, reason being it's easy to change your mind
and move things, yes I sometimes have to re level a slab now and again but
as the worms seem to raise soil levels anyway, its useful to be able to do
it quickly and cheaply without making a mess.


--
Charlie, Gardening in Cornwall
Holders of National Collections of Clematis viticella
and Lapageria rosea cvs
http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk

On 29/04/2014 08:56, Charlie Pridham wrote:

"James Jones" wrote in message
news


I have some "stepping stones" set in to my lawn: 9x18 cms and also a
couple of paving slabs : 60x75 cms which have sunk.
Is it better to relay them on "blobs" of cement rather than just
trying to get a sand base nice and level. I am think if large blobs
of cement are used it will be easier to get them level by tapping them
down with a rubber mallet. (The paving slabs take no vehicles)

I will probably be at odds with everyone else but for any paths across
grass I just use soil to level and lay, reason being it's easy to change
your mind and move things, yes I sometimes have to re level a slab now
and again but as the worms seem to raise soil levels anyway, its useful
to be able to do it quickly and cheaply without making a mess.

The OP doesn't say when they were laid.

Personally I would use a lean mix of about 2" under the slab to raise
it. Easier and more reliable than soils that are compressible.

Anything more for stepping stones is OTT.

On 29/04/2014 08:56, Charlie Pridham wrote:

"James Jones" wrote in message
news


I have some "stepping stones" set in to my lawn: 9x18 cms and also a
couple of paving slabs : 60x75 cms which have sunk.
Is it better to relay them on "blobs" of cement rather than just
trying to get a sand base nice and level. I am think if large blobs
of cement are used it will be easier to get them level by tapping them
down with a rubber mallet. (The paving slabs take no vehicles)

I will probably be at odds with everyone else but for any paths across
grass I just use soil to level and lay, reason being it's easy to change
your mind and move things, yes I sometimes have to re level a slab now
and again but as the worms seem to raise soil levels anyway, its useful
to be able to do it quickly and cheaply without making a mess.


Glad you agree Charlie, I said that when the item was first posted,
anything more is just making unnecessary work, and inuring cost.
David