On 18/08/14 16:32, Malcolm wrote:

In article , Tim Watts writes
On 17/08/14 21:44, Vir Campestris wrote:

Perhaps the following might be of interest - if you have knotweed your
house is almost certainly unsaleable, and possibly uninsurable.

With all due respect, that view is overblown hysteria.

Well said. Indeed, it is the worst kind of scaremongering and is to be deplored on this public newsgroup.

I agree with everything below.

And maybe you are right, maybe not - but it doesn't matter.
What does matter is that people will, if they have any choice,
go elsewhere - thus depressing the house price.


But the managing agents had put a treatment programme in place and everyone was happy.

In some places I suspect that would be the case, e.g. student
digs in a student "ghetto", since students will put up with
anything.

Other places might be different.

On Mon, 18 Aug 2014 16:47:40 +0100, Tom Gardner
wrote:

On 18/08/14 16:32, Malcolm wrote:

In article , Tim Watts writes
On 17/08/14 21:44, Vir Campestris wrote:

Perhaps the following might be of interest - if you have knotweed your
house is almost certainly unsaleable, and possibly uninsurable.

With all due respect, that view is overblown hysteria.

Well said. Indeed, it is the worst kind of scaremongering and is to be deplored on this public newsgroup.

I agree with everything below.

And maybe you are right, maybe not - but it doesn't matter.
What does matter is that people will, if they have any choice,
go elsewhere - thus depressing the house price.


I got my "infested" bungalow for 20% less than next door but I don't
know if the price was depressed by the Knotweed. It didn't bother me
at all. The bulk of the weed was removed in an afternoon. The bit
that's left looks very nice.

Steve


--
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JustNN Just a neural network http://www.justnn.com

On 18/08/14 16:47, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 18/08/14 16:32, Malcolm wrote:

In article , Tim Watts
writes
On 17/08/14 21:44, Vir Campestris wrote:

Perhaps the following might be of interest - if you have knotweed your
house is almost certainly unsaleable, and possibly uninsurable.

With all due respect, that view is overblown hysteria.

Well said. Indeed, it is the worst kind of scaremongering and is to be
deplored on this public newsgroup.

I agree with everything below.

And maybe you are right, maybe not - but it doesn't matter.
What does matter is that people will, if they have any choice,
go elsewhere - thus depressing the house price.

It had no effect on the house price of the sale I know of.

The price was £50k up over 2 years ago (South East).

On 18/08/14 17:01, Stephen Wolstenholme wrote:

I got my "infested" bungalow for 20% less than next door but I don't
know if the price was depressed by the Knotweed. It didn't bother me
at all. The bulk of the weed was removed in an afternoon. The bit
that's left looks very nice.


And the worst that you have to do if next door has knotweed is be
prepared to put in a sufficiently deep root barrier.

OK - it's a PITA but it's not a hugely expensive PITA.

In article ,
Martin wrote:
On Mon, 18 Aug 2014 16:32:40 +0100, Malcolm wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
writes
On 17/08/14 21:44, Vir Campestris wrote:

Perhaps the following might be of interest - if you have knotweed your
house is almost certainly unsaleable, and possibly uninsurable.

With all due respect, that view is overblown hysteria.

Well said. Indeed, it is the worst kind of scaremongering and is to be
deplored on this public newsgroup.

Meanwhile as part of Asian week Lidl in The Netherlands is selling cheap pots of
bamboo plants. Think of the problems that is going to cause.

None?

There are no bamboos that are more than mildly invasive outside
the very warmest parts of the UK (and the Netherlands is similar
to the south-east). Furthermore, they have to compete with
11,000 years of plant immigration, and the survival of the most
thuggish.

In the UK, Japanese knotweed is the ONLY vascular land plant that
has made itself an ecological or otherwise serious nuisance over
the majority of the country. And there are under a dozen that
are a serious nuisance in even a few parts of the UK. Out of
God alone knows how many thousand introductions.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article , says...

On 18/08/14 16:32, Malcolm wrote:

In article , Tim Watts writes
On 17/08/14 21:44, Vir Campestris wrote:

Perhaps the following might be of interest - if you have knotweed your
house is almost certainly unsaleable, and possibly uninsurable.

With all due respect, that view is overblown hysteria.

Well said. Indeed, it is the worst kind of scaremongering and is to be deplored on this public newsgroup.

I agree with everything below.

And maybe you are right, maybe not - but it doesn't matter.
What does matter is that people will, if they have any choice,
go elsewhere - thus depressing the house price.

I disagree. Every property I ever bought had at least one undesirable
factor (some of them horticultural) which we disregarded because we
knew it could be sorted out relatively cheaply.

Janet

On 18/08/14 21:31, Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,
Martin wrote:
On Mon, 18 Aug 2014 16:32:40 +0100, Malcolm wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
writes
On 17/08/14 21:44, Vir Campestris wrote:

Perhaps the following might be of interest - if you have knotweed your
house is almost certainly unsaleable, and possibly uninsurable.

With all due respect, that view is overblown hysteria.

Well said. Indeed, it is the worst kind of scaremongering and is to be
deplored on this public newsgroup.

Meanwhile as part of Asian week Lidl in The Netherlands is selling cheap pots of
bamboo plants. Think of the problems that is going to cause.

None?

At the corner of my road there is something coming up through
the asphalt pavement. The asphalt has been lifted maybe 1cm
and penetrated by the plant. Currently the shoots are shredded
and apparently dead, but when they were new and alive I formed
the impression they were a bamboo-type plant. The big clue was
the 8ft high bamboo on the other side of the wooden fence,
maybe 2ft away.

That might be considered to be "mildly invasive".

There are no bamboos that are more than mildly invasive outside
the very warmest parts of the UK (and the Netherlands is similar
to the south-east). Furthermore, they have to compete with
11,000 years of plant immigration, and the survival of the most
thuggish.

In article ,
Tom Gardner wrote:

Perhaps the following might be of interest - if you have knotweed your
house is almost certainly unsaleable, and possibly uninsurable.

With all due respect, that view is overblown hysteria.

Well said. Indeed, it is the worst kind of scaremongering and is to be
deplored on this public newsgroup.

Meanwhile as part of Asian week Lidl in The Netherlands is selling cheap pots of
bamboo plants. Think of the problems that is going to cause.

None?

At the corner of my road there is something coming up through
the asphalt pavement. The asphalt has been lifted maybe 1cm
and penetrated by the plant. Currently the shoots are shredded
and apparently dead, but when they were new and alive I formed
the impression they were a bamboo-type plant. The big clue was
the 8ft high bamboo on the other side of the wooden fence,
maybe 2ft away.

That might be considered to be "mildly invasive".

Quite. Do you know how many 'native' British plants do the same?
Why aren't they called invasive?


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 18/08/14 23:07, Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,
Tom Gardner wrote:

Perhaps the following might be of interest - if you have knotweed your
house is almost certainly unsaleable, and possibly uninsurable.

With all due respect, that view is overblown hysteria.

Well said. Indeed, it is the worst kind of scaremongering and is to be
deplored on this public newsgroup.

Meanwhile as part of Asian week Lidl in The Netherlands is selling cheap pots of
bamboo plants. Think of the problems that is going to cause.

None?

At the corner of my road there is something coming up through
the asphalt pavement. The asphalt has been lifted maybe 1cm
and penetrated by the plant. Currently the shoots are shredded
and apparently dead, but when they were new and alive I formed
the impression they were a bamboo-type plant. The big clue was
the 8ft high bamboo on the other side of the wooden fence,
maybe 2ft away.

That might be considered to be "mildly invasive".

Quite. Do you know how many 'native' British plants do the same?

My "favourite" is Agaricus Bitorquis


Why aren't they called invasive?

Because they invaded before humans invaded?

In message , Martin
writes

On Mon, 18 Aug 2014 21:31:47 +0100 (BST), (Nick
Maclaren) wrote:

There are no bamboos that are more than mildly invasive outside
the very warmest parts of the UK (and the Netherlands is similar
to the south-east). Furthermore, they have to compete with
11,000 years of plant immigration, and the survival of the most
thuggish.

It makes one wonder why anybody would put this on the RHS website

"Planting inside a physical barrier
New bamboo plants or divisions can be contained within a physical barrier to
prevent them spreading through beds and borders.

Dig a trench at least 60cm (2ft) deep, but ideally 120cm (4ft) deep
Line the sides of the trench with either solid materials (such as paving slabs,
corrugated iron sheets or pre-cast concrete drain sections) or with
fabric (such
as root barrier fabric obtainable from Green Tech Ltd or industrial linoleum
(2mm (1/8in) thick), available from builders merchants).

Etc., etc.

I have wondered about the accuracy of some advice on the RHS website
ever since I saw that they say that:

"There are no fungicides available to amateur gardeners for use against
downy mildews."

https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?PID=683

yet viticulturists (including me) have used Bordeaux Mixture for years
against downy mildew.

Or is Bordeaux Mixture not a fungicide?

Or am I not an amateur?

David

--
David Rance writing from Le Mesnil Villement, Calvados, France

In article ,
Tom Gardner wrote:

At the corner of my road there is something coming up through
the asphalt pavement. The asphalt has been lifted maybe 1cm
and penetrated by the plant. Currently the shoots are shredded
and apparently dead, but when they were new and alive I formed
the impression they were a bamboo-type plant. The big clue was
the 8ft high bamboo on the other side of the wooden fence,
maybe 2ft away.

That might be considered to be "mildly invasive".

Quite. Do you know how many 'native' British plants do the same?

My "favourite" is Agaricus Bitorquis

Why aren't they called invasive?

Because they invaded before humans invaded?

Which they didn't. Homo sapiens is the only species of land
mammal that we are certain has lived in the UK for 30,000
years, and there is only one other that might have done.
Except for the few glacial relics (almost entirely restricted
to the top of a few mountains), ALL other species of land
mammal, vascular plant, and almost all other species of
multicellular life in the UK are newcomers compared to us.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
Malcolm wrote:

In the UK, Japanese knotweed is the ONLY vascular land plant that
has made itself an ecological or otherwise serious nuisance over
the majority of the country. And there are under a dozen that
are a serious nuisance in even a few parts of the UK. Out of
God alone knows how many thousand introductions.

I would add Rhododendron ponticum as an ecologically serious nuisance
over the majority of the country, with Heracleum mantegazzianum (giant
hogweed) perhaps the nastiest for humans.

Both are factually wrong, though such claims are made for both,
mostly by misinformation rags like the Daily Wail.

Rhododendron ponticum will not even establish itself in much
of the country, and is much less of a problem even where it is
invasive than many people claim. I have never seen more than a
patchy clump very far from the west coast, though there may be a
few more solid ones in places. Also, it isn't a major problem
(no more than, say, sycamore, ash etc.) where the woodland has
established a canopy (or even can do so?), as much of Cornwall
can witness.

The problems with Heracleum mantegazzianum are grossly overstated,
as the actual injury statistics show. I can't currently find a
link, but I previously saw one that made it clear that the
hysteria was almost entirely tabloid-driven. Yes, it can cause
serious harm, but so can lots of other things.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In message , Martin
writes
On Tue, 19 Aug 2014 07:56:41 +0100, David Rance
wrote:

In message , Martin
writes

On Mon, 18 Aug 2014 21:31:47 +0100 (BST), (Nick
Maclaren) wrote:

There are no bamboos that are more than mildly invasive outside
the very warmest parts of the UK (and the Netherlands is similar
to the south-east). Furthermore, they have to compete with
11,000 years of plant immigration, and the survival of the most
thuggish.

It makes one wonder why anybody would put this on the RHS website

"Planting inside a physical barrier
New bamboo plants or divisions can be contained within a physical barrier to
prevent them spreading through beds and borders.

Dig a trench at least 60cm (2ft) deep, but ideally 120cm (4ft) deep
Line the sides of the trench with either solid materials (such as
paving slabs,
corrugated iron sheets or pre-cast concrete drain sections) or with
fabric (such
as root barrier fabric obtainable from Green Tech Ltd or industrial linoleum
(2mm (1/8in) thick), available from builders merchants).

Etc., etc.

I have wondered about the accuracy of some advice on the RHS website
ever since I saw that they say that:

"There are no fungicides available to amateur gardeners for use against
downy mildews."

https://www.rhs.org.uk/advice/profile?PID=683

yet viticulturists (including me) have used Bordeaux Mixture for years
against downy mildew.

Or is Bordeaux Mixture not a fungicide?

Or am I not an amateur?

"From Telegraph Gardening:
Bordeaux Mixture itself has recently been revoked (i.e. not banned, but
its uses
re-defined), but it will available until February 2013. For more, see
www.rhs.org.uk or www.pesticides.gov.uk (go to Databases Home, and look at
'Garden Pesticides’) [I can't find that HSE stuff] and be warned, this is a
complicated issue. Bayer Fruit and Vegetable Disease Control is a traditional
fungicide containing another form of copper (copper oxychloride), which appears
to have got the bureaucratic thumbs up, and this might be your best bet.

From RHS website
Bordeaux Mixture will be withdrawn from sale on 28 February 2013 but any person
can use and store existing stocks until 28 February 2015."

Bordeaux Mixture is still readily available in do-it-yourself stores.
I've just bought some!

Also, elsewhere on the RHS site, it still recommends the use of Bordeaux
Mixture.

David

--
David Rance writing from Le Mesnil Villement, Calvados, France

On Tue, 19 Aug 2014 12:43:01 +0200, Martin wrote:


for those who have hoarded the stuff? :-)

Or those who know how to make it. It's copper sulphate and calcium
hydroxide dissolved in water. Both can be bought in the UK.

Steve

--
Neural Network Software http://www.npsnn.com
EasyNN-plus More than just a neural network http://www.easynn.com
SwingNN Prediction software http://www.swingnn.com
JustNN Just a neural network http://www.justnn.com

In article ,
Malcolm wrote:

I would add Rhododendron ponticum as an ecologically serious nuisance
over the majority of the country, with Heracleum mantegazzianum (giant
hogweed) perhaps the nastiest for humans.

Both are factually wrong, though such claims are made for both,
mostly by misinformation rags like the Daily Wail.

Rhododendron ponticum will not even establish itself in much
of the country,

Perhaps before you make yet more didactic statements you should look at
the distribution map for Rhododendron in the BSBI Atlas, which shows it
as occurring in 1787 out of the 2852 10-km squares in Britain, being
absent from mountain tops and parts of Central and East Anglia where
presumably the soils are not sufficiently acidic. For comparison,
Japanese Knotweed occurs in 1877 squares, again absent from high ground
and also much of northern Scotland.

Perhaps before you post again you should learnt the difference between
occurrence and establishment. Indeed, there are plenty of plants that
occur widely, but have established nowhere (usually referred to as
'common casuals').

and is much less of a problem even where it is
invasive than many people claim.

Perhaps if you lived in areas where it is a significant problem, much of
Scotland, the Lake District, etc., you would not be so complacent. It
can be just as big a nuisance as knotweed.

Perhaps if you kept your eyes open, you would notice the difference.
Many people claim that it is always a major problem where it occurs,
and that is very clearly not the case.

I have never seen more than a
patchy clump very far from the west coast, though there may be a
few more solid ones in places.

*You* may not have seen this, but others have. Perhaps it depends on how
well travelled you are.

Probably more than you. I have many times asked people to provide
me with information of where it is causing a problem away from the
west coast, and rarely had an answer. I have also deliberately
looked out for the phenomenon over several decades and, while I have
seen where R. ponticum has established itself, I have never seen it
showing any signs of being dominant away from the west coast.

A statistical analysis of my observations is that it is definitely
rarely a major problem in the areas away from the west coast in
the areas I have seen it, and may never be.

Since you claim that you know of such locations, would you care to
inform us of exactly where?

Also, it isn't a major problem
(no more than, say, sycamore, ash etc.) where the woodland has
established a canopy (or even can do so?), as much of Cornwall
can witness.

It is without doubt a "major problem". It might not be in Cambridge, but
believe me it most certainly is in many other parts of the country. And
I would be happy to show you large areas of woodland, complete with a
canopy and complete with a dense understorey of rhododendron.

Without evidence that it is crowding out other species out under such
circumstances, it is ridiculous to describe that as a major problem,
except to your prejudices.

The problems with Heracleum mantegazzianum are grossly overstated,
as the actual injury statistics show. I can't currently find a
link, but I previously saw one that made it clear that the
hysteria was almost entirely tabloid-driven. Yes, it can cause
serious harm, but so can lots of other things.

I didn't say Giant Hogweed caused "serious harm", but did say that it
was perhaps the nastiest invasive for humans. i note your inability to
find your link.

I note your childish response, and similar failure to find any link
on the incidence of harm due to H. mantegazzianum.

I hope you wouldn't regard the Centre for Ecology and Hydrology as part
of the tabloid press and that you won't contradict what their leaflet on
the plant states, and in particular the last comment which they have
chosen to put in caps:
"WARNING
The sap of giant hogweed contains a toxic chemical which sensitises the
skin and leads to severe blistering when exposed to sunlight.
THIS REACTION CAN RECUR FOR MANY YEARS"

Well, yes, I can. That is misleading, to the point of being false.
It would be correct if it had said "can sensitise" and "can lead".

Yes, it can do that, but it does not necessarily do that - and, no,
I don't know why it sometimes does and sometimes doesn't. I have
had a lot of its sap on my skin, on a hot, sunny day, and had no
reaction. I know other people who have had the same experience.

Also, I suggest that you look up the effects of some introduced
plants (especially oil seed rape) on asthmatics. Or do you regard
their misery (and, sometimes, death) as unimportant?


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.