In article ,
says...
These old Victorian walled gardens are now two a penny, they are everywhere
and you only need to go to one and you have done the lot.


Yes, in some of the gardens where there is little of the old structures left
I would use double glazing and UPVC and powder coated Ally and computer
controls and all the other modern stuff available including solar panels in
some of the gardens to roof the sheds etc.

Surely your same argument would apply? "Once you'd seen one you've
seen the lot."

The NT's remit is not about teaching the public to garden or
demonstrating modern technology. That's for the RHS to do, or modern
gardens like Eden.

Janet

"Janet" wrote ...


says...
These old Victorian walled gardens are now two a penny, they are
everywhere
and you only need to go to one and you have done the lot.


Yes, in some of the gardens where there is little of the old structures
left
I would use double glazing and UPVC and powder coated Ally and computer
controls and all the other modern stuff available including solar panels
in
some of the gardens to roof the sheds etc.

Surely your same argument would apply? "Once you'd seen one you've
seen the lot."

The NT's remit is not about teaching the public to garden or
demonstrating modern technology. That's for the RHS to do, or modern
gardens like Eden.


Perhaps the NT should take on the mantle, they are very keen to show and
teach about the old ways why not the modern ways too so we can all see the
difference.
I would agree with you about teaching new ways but unfortunately the RHS and
Eden don't, they hide the controls and equipment away so they teach nothing
about modern greenhouse gardening, they only show pretty plants and
butterflies. How many visitors even know you can have a fully automatic
greenhouse (if you can afford it).

--
Regards. Bob Hobden.
Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK

Have followed this article with interest, so here's my
thoughts.

I do not support the NT, do do visit some of their properties,
so am neutral on that.

It seems to me if the NT think it is worth spending money on
building old fashioned style greenhouses, then they MUST grow
only the crops and varieties that were available in the period
they are mimicking.

Good luck to them, presumably they will do some monitoring of
visits etc at one rebuild before spreading it across the
country?

--
Roger T

700 ft up in Mid-Wales

In article ,
says...

"Janet" wrote ...

The NT's remit is not about teaching the public to garden or
demonstrating modern technology. That's for the RHS to do, or modern
gardens like Eden.


Perhaps the NT should take on the mantle, they are very keen to show and
teach about the old ways why not the modern ways too

The NT is a registered charity, completely independent of Government.
It's legally obliged to comply with its founders Charitable aim, which
is to preserve and protect historic places. It's funded by donors and
members who support those aims.

If a charity fails to satisfy its financial supporters they will
take their money elsewhere.

Janet.

"Janet" wrote
says...

"Janet" wrote ...

The NT's remit is not about teaching the public to garden or
demonstrating modern technology. That's for the RHS to do, or modern
gardens like Eden.


Perhaps the NT should take on the mantle, they are very keen to show and
teach about the old ways why not the modern ways too

The NT is a registered charity, completely independent of Government.
It's legally obliged to comply with its founders Charitable aim, which
is to preserve and protect historic places. It's funded by donors and
members who support those aims.

If a charity fails to satisfy its financial supporters they will
take their money elsewhere.



My point entirely, if there is nothing historic to protect why build a
pastiche.
--
Regards. Bob Hobden.
Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK

"Bob Hobden" wrote in message
...
I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a significant
number of it's walled gardens into production. My problem is that I've
heard they intend to remake the old greenhouses as they were, all manual
and in wood, instead of using modern materials and automation and things
like double glazing for the orchid houses. Personally I think that is crazy
as the old Head Gardeners would never have countenanced such a retrograde
step.
What do others think?

-- Regards
Bob Hobden
Posting to this Newsgroup
from the W.of London. UK

Well I think they should go for the look, but is daft to do what Heligan
did, they are constantly having to maintain the restored glasshouses which
you can't go in because its not safety glass,

--
Charlie, Gardening in Cornwall
Holders of National Collections of Clematis viticella
and Lapageria rosea cvs
http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk

On 2015-01-05 10:10:53 +0000, Roger Tonkin said:

Have followed this article with interest, so here's my
thoughts.

I do not support the NT, do do visit some of their properties,
so am neutral on that.

It seems to me if the NT think it is worth spending money on
building old fashioned style greenhouses, then they MUST grow
only the crops and varieties that were available in the period
they are mimicking.

Good luck to them, presumably they will do some monitoring of
visits etc at one rebuild before spreading it across the
country?

I take your point but afaik, they try to grow things that can be sold
and certainly supply their own cafés, where possible. If old varieties
are either less productive, or more labour intensive, that isn't going
to work. It's often overlooked that the properties they look after do
have to 'wash their own faces', if at all possible and must produce
some form of income for their own benefit. If it's just our proverbial
half a crown that's how it has to be but if it can sell and use crops,
then it must. These places cost a fortune to look after.
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon

On 2015-01-03 22:26:41 +0000, Bob Hobden said:

"Sacha" wrote

Bob Hobden said:

I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a significant
number of it's walled gardens into production. My problem is that I've
heard they intend to remake the old greenhouses as they were, all
manual and in wood, instead of using modern materials and automation
and things like double glazing for the orchid houses. Personally I
think that is crazy as the old Head Gardeners would never have
countenanced such a retrograde step.
What do others think?

The problem with the NT is that they do have a mindset which is that
the house/garden/outbuildings must be kept as they were in their heyday
- whatever part of their history that might be. For myself, I'd say
use modern methods (NOT pvc greenhouses) but have notices that explain
how things would have been whenever.

My point is that the old Head Gardeners wanted the best and latest and
he would not have had a wooden hands on greenhouse made today. They are
labour intensive and prone to rot quickly if not constantly cared for.
There are some at West Dean that were replaced a few years ago and they
are already having problems with paint peeling exposing timber
(although they don't seem to be doing anything about it).
There are so many of these old greenhouses about now it's about time
they changed to a modern way of doing things. Perhaps they will come up
to date in at least one walled garden, I can but hope. It would be so
much more interesting seeing what can be done now.

I'm anti-pvc but if they can't maintain the greenhouses, then it would
be better to be rid of them and not have the expense. That, too,
happened in many old houses when still inhabited by their owners! If
you could bring 18th or 19th century owners into our time and tell them
they could enjoy crops from all over the world for far less than the
cost of maintaining a staff and greenhouse, I am perfectly certain that
I know which they'd choose. It's very interesting to read James
Less-Milne's Diaries on the early days of the NT and the struggles
owners of such properties experienced.
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon

On 05/01/2015 18:49, sacha wrote:
On 2015-01-03 22:26:41 +0000, Bob Hobden said:

"Sacha" wrote

Bob Hobden said:

I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a
significant number of it's walled gardens into production. My
problem is that I've heard they intend to remake the old greenhouses
as they were, all manual and in wood, instead of using modern
materials and automation and things like double glazing for the
orchid houses. Personally I think that is crazy as the old Head
Gardeners would never have countenanced such a retrograde step.
What do others think?

The problem with the NT is that they do have a mindset which is that
the house/garden/outbuildings must be kept as they were in their
heyday - whatever part of their history that might be. For myself,
I'd say use modern methods (NOT pvc greenhouses) but have notices
that explain how things would have been whenever.

My point is that the old Head Gardeners wanted the best and latest and
he would not have had a wooden hands on greenhouse made today. They
are labour intensive and prone to rot quickly if not constantly cared
for. There are some at West Dean that were replaced a few years ago
and they are already having problems with paint peeling exposing
timber (although they don't seem to be doing anything about it).
There are so many of these old greenhouses about now it's about time
they changed to a modern way of doing things. Perhaps they will come
up to date in at least one walled garden, I can but hope. It would be
so much more interesting seeing what can be done now.

I'm anti-pvc but if they can't maintain the greenhouses, then it would
be better to be rid of them and not have the expense. That, too,
happened in many old houses when still inhabited by their owners! If
you could bring 18th or 19th century owners into our time and tell them
they could enjoy crops from all over the world for far less than the
cost of maintaining a staff and greenhouse, I am perfectly certain that
I know which they'd choose. It's very interesting to read James
Less-Milne's Diaries on the early days of the NT and the struggles
owners of such properties experienced.

So they'd all go to Tesco?

On 2015-01-05 19:56:58 +0000, David said:

On 05/01/2015 18:49, sacha wrote:
On 2015-01-03 22:26:41 +0000, Bob Hobden said:

"Sacha" wrote

Bob Hobden said:

I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a
significant number of it's walled gardens into production. My
problem is that I've heard they intend to remake the old greenhouses
as they were, all manual and in wood, instead of using modern
materials and automation and things like double glazing for the
orchid houses. Personally I think that is crazy as the old Head
Gardeners would never have countenanced such a retrograde step.
What do others think?

The problem with the NT is that they do have a mindset which is that
the house/garden/outbuildings must be kept as they were in their
heyday - whatever part of their history that might be. For myself,
I'd say use modern methods (NOT pvc greenhouses) but have notices
that explain how things would have been whenever.

My point is that the old Head Gardeners wanted the best and latest and
he would not have had a wooden hands on greenhouse made today. They
are labour intensive and prone to rot quickly if not constantly cared
for. There are some at West Dean that were replaced a few years ago
and they are already having problems with paint peeling exposing
timber (although they don't seem to be doing anything about it).
There are so many of these old greenhouses about now it's about time
they changed to a modern way of doing things. Perhaps they will come
up to date in at least one walled garden, I can but hope. It would be
so much more interesting seeing what can be done now.

I'm anti-pvc but if they can't maintain the greenhouses, then it would
be better to be rid of them and not have the expense. That, too,
happened in many old houses when still inhabited by their owners! If
you could bring 18th or 19th century owners into our time and tell them
they could enjoy crops from all over the world for far less than the
cost of maintaining a staff and greenhouse, I am perfectly certain that
I know which they'd choose. It's very interesting to read James
Less-Milne's Diaries on the early days of the NT and the struggles
owners of such properties experienced.

So they'd all go to Tesco?

I'd say so. The main thing was preserving estates and houses to hand
on to the next generation and to provide for those working for the
estate. They were self-contained businesses, in effect. So saving money
where possible, to spend on the estate, was paramount. The reason they
grew their own was because there *were* no supermarkets, unlike now
when people grow their own for preference. I really doubt those old
'uns waxed lyrical about the health benefits of veg or organic growing.
They grew them because they liked eating them. And of course, they also
liked (in the grandest houses) vying with each other to put the
earliest spring veg and fruits on the table!
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On 03/01/2015 18:38, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 03/01/15 15:41, Bob Hobden wrote:
I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a significant
number
of it's walled gardens into production. My problem is that I've heard
they
intend to remake the old greenhouses as they were, all manual and in
wood,
instead of using modern materials and automation and things like double
glazing for the orchid houses. Personally I think that is crazy as the
old
Head Gardeners would never have countenanced such a retrograde step.
What do others think?

Well, if there weren't any Grade 1 or 2 listing, you could make an
argument for double glazing and LED lighting in any NT property. But
they wouldn't look right, and I guess the NT are using a similar
argument for greenhouses.

And would I want to visit such modern greenhouses to see how they were
being used to grow things? I very much doubt it.


Bit off topic but in a seventeenth century house LED lighting is no more
anachronistic than hot tungsten. Getting the colour balance right might
mean specialist sources though.

"Paul Luton" wrote

Bit off topic but in a seventeenth century house LED lighting is no more
anachronistic than hot tungsten. Getting the colour balance right might
mean specialist sources though.


When the Government first said they were going to get rid of tungsten bulbs
I contacted the NT because they have lots of crystal chandeliers and asked
them what they intended to use instead because we also have a few crystal
chandeliers and the CFL's that were being pushed at us simply do not work in
them. They replied that they were changing over to clear halogen bulbs.
However that was before LEDs became as good as they are now and I suspect
that is what they will change over to eventually.
--
Regards. Bob Hobden.
Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK

On 2015-01-09 13:26:10 +0000, Martin said:

On Thu, 08 Jan 2015 22:14:09 +0000, Paul Luton
wrote:

On 03/01/2015 18:38, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 03/01/15 15:41, Bob Hobden wrote:
I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a significant
number
of it's walled gardens into production. My problem is that I've heard
they
intend to remake the old greenhouses as they were, all manual and in
wood,
instead of using modern materials and automation and things like double
glazing for the orchid houses. Personally I think that is crazy as the
old
Head Gardeners would never have countenanced such a retrograde step.
What do others think?

Well, if there weren't any Grade 1 or 2 listing, you could make an
argument for double glazing and LED lighting in any NT property. But
they wouldn't look right, and I guess the NT are using a similar
argument for greenhouses.

And would I want to visit such modern greenhouses to see how they were
being used to grow things? I very much doubt it.


Bit off topic but in a seventeenth century house LED lighting is no more
anachronistic than hot tungsten. Getting the colour balance right might
mean specialist sources though.

As the Amsterdam Vincent Van Gogh museum has found out getting wrong can damage
millions of pounds worth of paintings.

If you want to visit Cotehele, go on a sunny day. There is no lighting!
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On 2015-01-09 16:44:48 +0000, Martin said:

On Fri, 9 Jan 2015 16:07:35 +0000, Sacha wrote:

On 2015-01-09 13:26:10 +0000, Martin said:
snip

As the Amsterdam Vincent Van Gogh museum has found out getting wrong can damage
millions of pounds worth of paintings.

If you want to visit Cotehele, go on a sunny day. There is no lighting!

The Louvre used to be like that.
Lighting in the VVG Museum has bleached the reds in the paintings.

Oh my goodness, that's criminal!
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On 11/01/2015 09:43, Martin wrote:
This article says it wasn't caused by LED lighting. It was yellows that
deteriorated not reds.

IAC very unlikely to be LED lighting. The colours are in a series of
very narrow bands, usually blue/green/red, or in cheap ones blue/yellow.
They use fluorescence to generate the red/yellow/green from the blue.

Unlike (compact) fluorescent lights, which use UV from mercury vapour
rather than blue. UV is seriously bad news for damaging things.

Neither has very good colour rendition. I'd hope a gallery would keep
some kind on incandescent to avoid problems from discontinuous spectra.

Andy