National Trust walled gardens
 

I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a significant number
of it's walled gardens into production. My problem is that I've heard they
intend to remake the old greenhouses as they were, all manual and in wood,
instead of using modern materials and automation and things like double
glazing for the orchid houses. Personally I think that is crazy as the old
Head Gardeners would never have countenanced such a retrograde step.
What do others think?

-- Regards
Bob Hobden
Posting to this Newsgroup
from the W.of London. UK

National Trust walled gardens
 

On 03/01/2015 15:41, Bob Hobden wrote:
I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a significant
number of it's walled gardens into production. My problem is that I've
heard they intend to remake the old greenhouses as they were, all manual
and in wood, instead of using modern materials and automation and things
like double glazing for the orchid houses. Personally I think that is
crazy as the old Head Gardeners would never have countenanced such a
retrograde step.
What do others think?

-- Regards
Bob Hobden
Posting to this Newsgroup
from the W.of London. UK
Well it is not their own money they are spending!

National Trust walled gardens
 

On 03/01/15 15:41, Bob Hobden wrote:
I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a significant number
of it's walled gardens into production. My problem is that I've heard they
intend to remake the old greenhouses as they were, all manual and in wood,
instead of using modern materials and automation and things like double
glazing for the orchid houses. Personally I think that is crazy as the old
Head Gardeners would never have countenanced such a retrograde step.
What do others think?

Well, if there weren't any Grade 1 or 2 listing, you could make an
argument for double glazing and LED lighting in any NT property. But
they wouldn't look right, and I guess the NT are using a similar
argument for greenhouses.

And would I want to visit such modern greenhouses to see how they were
being used to grow things? I very much doubt it.

--

Jeff

National Trust walled gardens
 

On 03/01/2015 15:41, Bob Hobden wrote:
I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a significant
number of it's walled gardens into production. My problem is that I've
heard they intend to remake the old greenhouses as they were, all manual
and in wood, instead of using modern materials and automation and things
like double glazing for the orchid houses. Personally I think that is
crazy as the old Head Gardeners would never have countenanced such a
retrograde step.
What do others think?

-- Regards
Bob Hobden
Posting to this Newsgroup
from the W.of London. UK
Nothing wrong with remaking them in wood, but I would double glaze them,
as for fitting automatic vents I would say NO.
A good old hand operated ventilation system can be very efficient and
does teach the younger gardener about glasshouse ventilation, which a
computer operated system wont do.
I still have to visit Duffryn house and gardens to see what they have
done, as they have rebuilt the glasshouses and re done the walled
garden. I knew the old setup quite well.
I certainly don't like the idea of Aluminum houses as replacements.
David

National Trust walled gardens
 

On 2015-01-03 15:41:03 +0000, Bob Hobden said:

I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a significant
number of it's walled gardens into production. My problem is that I've
heard they intend to remake the old greenhouses as they were, all
manual and in wood, instead of using modern materials and automation
and things like double glazing for the orchid houses. Personally I
think that is crazy as the old Head Gardeners would never have
countenanced such a retrograde step.
What do others think?

-- Regards
Bob Hobden
Posting to this Newsgroup
from the W.of London. UK

The problem with the NT is that they do have a mindset which is that
the house/garden/outbuildings must be kept as they were in their heyday
- whatever part of their history that might be. For myself, I'd say
use modern methods (NOT pvc greenhouses) but have notices that explain
how things would have been whenever.
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

National Trust walled gardens
 

On 2015-01-03 18:38:44 +0000, Jeff Layman said:

On 03/01/15 15:41, Bob Hobden wrote:
I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a significant number
of it's walled gardens into production. My problem is that I've heard they
intend to remake the old greenhouses as they were, all manual and in wood,
instead of using modern materials and automation and things like double
glazing for the orchid houses. Personally I think that is crazy as the old
Head Gardeners would never have countenanced such a retrograde step.
What do others think?

Well, if there weren't any Grade 1 or 2 listing, you could make an
argument for double glazing and LED lighting in any NT property. But
they wouldn't look right, and I guess the NT are using a similar
argument for greenhouses.

And would I want to visit such modern greenhouses to see how they were
being used to grow things? I very much doubt it.

Imo, the greenhouses could be made to the old design but use methods
that cut down on labour. We have to remember that these houses would
have had a dozen gardeners. Now, labour costs mean they'd be lucky to
have 3 and some volunteers
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

National Trust walled gardens
 

"Sacha" wrote

Bob Hobden said:

I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a significant
number of it's walled gardens into production. My problem is that I've
heard they intend to remake the old greenhouses as they were, all manual
and in wood, instead of using modern materials and automation and things
like double glazing for the orchid houses. Personally I think that is
crazy as the old Head Gardeners would never have countenanced such a
retrograde step.
What do others think?

The problem with the NT is that they do have a mindset which is that the
house/garden/outbuildings must be kept as they were in their heyday -
whatever part of their history that might be. For myself, I'd say use
modern methods (NOT pvc greenhouses) but have notices that explain how
things would have been whenever.

My point is that the old Head Gardeners wanted the best and latest and he
would not have had a wooden hands on greenhouse made today. They are labour
intensive and prone to rot quickly if not constantly cared for. There are
some at West Dean that were replaced a few years ago and they are already
having problems with paint peeling exposing timber (although they don't seem
to be doing anything about it).
There are so many of these old greenhouses about now it's about time they
changed to a modern way of doing things. Perhaps they will come up to date
in at least one walled garden, I can but hope. It would be so much more
interesting seeing what can be done now.


--
Regards. Bob Hobden.
Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK

National Trust walled gardens
 

"Jeff Layman" wrote ...

, Bob Hobden wrote:
I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a significant
number
of it's walled gardens into production. My problem is that I've heard
they
intend to remake the old greenhouses as they were, all manual and in
wood,
instead of using modern materials and automation and things like double
glazing for the orchid houses. Personally I think that is crazy as the
old
Head Gardeners would never have countenanced such a retrograde step.
What do others think?

Well, if there weren't any Grade 1 or 2 listing, you could make an argument
for double glazing and LED lighting in any NT property. But they wouldn't
look right, and I guess the NT are using a similar argument for
greenhouses.

And would I want to visit such modern greenhouses to see how they were
being used to grow things? I very much doubt it.

I understand about the houses but the gardens are for growing produce and
that is their only purpose, so I see nothing wrong and everything right in
them using the most modern techniques and equipment to achieve that. The
Head Gardener, if he was still around, would embrace any modern improvement.
A super modern large greenhouse would be much more interesting than an old
plain museum piece, there are hundreds of those already. It's all about the
plants.
--
Regards. Bob Hobden.
Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK

National Trust walled gardens
 

On 03/01/2015 15:41, Bob Hobden wrote:
I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a significant
number of it's walled gardens into production. My problem is that I've
heard they intend to remake the old greenhouses as they were, all manual
and in wood, instead of using modern materials and automation and things
like double glazing for the orchid houses. Personally I think that is
crazy as the old Head Gardeners would never have countenanced such a
retrograde step.
What do others think?

-- Regards
Bob Hobden
Posting to this Newsgroup
from the W.of London. UK


I wonder, is the next move to bring back arsenic poisoning and DDT (in
tune with the appropriate era), and scythes outside the greenhouses? I
doubt it. I have no problem with wooden greenhouses and, if NT have
enough educated staff (paid by us), they may even manage without
automatic vents, but I don't see how they can ignore modern horticulture
altogether. It would certainly dent their choice of plants. Pay
packets would be limited, too *and* it would break a few laws. I wonder
if they'd be prepared to pay Glass Tax.

All in all, I think it's nonsense. The NT seems to be cherry-picking
the bits of history it wants leaving the rest. They're not putting on a
period drama for a few months, but running a garden for many years.
They may very well change it now but, a few years down the line, I
reckon they'll be changing it back. I'm not sure I want to pay for that.
--
Spider.
On high ground in SE London
gardening on heavy clay

National Trust walled gardens
 

On 03/01/15 22:31, Bob Hobden wrote:
"Jeff Layman" wrote ...

, Bob Hobden wrote:
I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a significant
number
of it's walled gardens into production. My problem is that I've heard
they
intend to remake the old greenhouses as they were, all manual and in
wood,
instead of using modern materials and automation and things like double
glazing for the orchid houses. Personally I think that is crazy as the
old
Head Gardeners would never have countenanced such a retrograde step.
What do others think?

Well, if there weren't any Grade 1 or 2 listing, you could make an argument
for double glazing and LED lighting in any NT property. But they wouldn't
look right, and I guess the NT are using a similar argument for
greenhouses.

And would I want to visit such modern greenhouses to see how they were
being used to grow things? I very much doubt it.

I understand about the houses but the gardens are for growing produce and
that is their only purpose, so I see nothing wrong and everything right in
them using the most modern techniques and equipment to achieve that. The
Head Gardener, if he was still around, would embrace any modern improvement.
A super modern large greenhouse would be much more interesting than an old
plain museum piece, there are hundreds of those already. It's all about the
plants.

I am afraid that I disagree. You can't disentangle the houses and
gardens - they are inextricably linked. The gardens are for growing
produce, but not in a modern way. If you look at the "About us" at the
bottom of the NT webpages, the first thing it states is "We're a UK
conservation charity...". Note *conservation* - not modernisation. If
you want modernisation, you go to the RHS gardens, and perhaps some
other gardens open to the public. Where do you stop the "improvements"?
Are you going to get rid of all the heritage fruit and veg because it
doesn't crop as well or has poor disease resistance?

The NT has always had a problem with conservation of old buildings - how
far back does it go? What do you do with Georgian, Regency, or Victorian
changes to Tudor buildings, for example? Well, whatever is decided, it
won't include new central heating and solar panels on the roofs! Would
you put solar panels in the walled gardens to help heat the greenhouses?

--

Jeff

National Trust walled gardens
 

"Sacha" wrote

Jeff Layman said:

Bob Hobden wrote:
I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a significant
number
of it's walled gardens into production. My problem is that I've heard
they
intend to remake the old greenhouses as they were, all manual and in
wood,
instead of using modern materials and automation and things like double
glazing for the orchid houses. Personally I think that is crazy as the
old
Head Gardeners would never have countenanced such a retrograde step.
What do others think?

Well, if there weren't any Grade 1 or 2 listing, you could make an
argument for double glazing and LED lighting in any NT property. But
they wouldn't look right, and I guess the NT are using a similar argument
for greenhouses.

And would I want to visit such modern greenhouses to see how they were
being used to grow things? I very much doubt it.

Imo, the greenhouses could be made to the old design but use methods that
cut down on labour. We have to remember that these houses would have had a
dozen gardeners. Now, labour costs mean they'd be lucky to have 3 and some
volunteers

Unlike the great houses these greenhouses in many cases do not exist any
more and are only known from the whitewash on the walls and maybe a rubble
wall or two. There is nothing to preserve so a new but oldfashioned
greenhouse is a pastiche of what once was so I see no problem in making
modern greenhouses for the site. OK make them look in keeping if you must
but what period do you choose as these gardens constantly changed with
changing gardening practice, their purpose was to grow food and flowers for
the big house.
--
Regards. Bob Hobden.
Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK

National Trust walled gardens
 

On 04/01/2015 09:24, Bob Hobden wrote:
"Sacha" wrote

Jeff Layman said:

Bob Hobden wrote:
I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a
significant number
of it's walled gardens into production. My problem is that I've
heard they
intend to remake the old greenhouses as they were, all manual and in
wood,
instead of using modern materials and automation and things like double
glazing for the orchid houses. Personally I think that is crazy as
the old
Head Gardeners would never have countenanced such a retrograde step.
What do others think?

Well, if there weren't any Grade 1 or 2 listing, you could make an
argument for double glazing and LED lighting in any NT property. But
they wouldn't look right, and I guess the NT are using a similar
argument for greenhouses.

And would I want to visit such modern greenhouses to see how they
were being used to grow things? I very much doubt it.

Imo, the greenhouses could be made to the old design but use methods
that cut down on labour. We have to remember that these houses would
have had a dozen gardeners. Now, labour costs mean they'd be lucky to
have 3 and some volunteers

Unlike the great houses these greenhouses in many cases do not exist any
more and are only known from the whitewash on the walls and maybe a
rubble wall or two. There is nothing to preserve so a new but
oldfashioned greenhouse is a pastiche of what once was so I see no
problem in making modern greenhouses for the site. OK make them look in
keeping if you must but what period do you choose as these gardens
constantly changed with changing gardening practice, their purpose was
to grow food and flowers for the big house.


So you think a multi bay Venlo would be OK?

National Trust walled gardens
 

"David" wrote ...

Bob Hobden wrote:
"Sacha" wrote

Jeff Layman said:

Bob Hobden wrote:
I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a
significant number
of it's walled gardens into production. My problem is that I've
heard they
intend to remake the old greenhouses as they were, all manual and in
wood,
instead of using modern materials and automation and things like
double
glazing for the orchid houses. Personally I think that is crazy as
the old
Head Gardeners would never have countenanced such a retrograde step.
What do others think?

Well, if there weren't any Grade 1 or 2 listing, you could make an
argument for double glazing and LED lighting in any NT property. But
they wouldn't look right, and I guess the NT are using a similar
argument for greenhouses.

And would I want to visit such modern greenhouses to see how they
were being used to grow things? I very much doubt it.

Imo, the greenhouses could be made to the old design but use methods
that cut down on labour. We have to remember that these houses would
have had a dozen gardeners. Now, labour costs mean they'd be lucky to
have 3 and some volunteers

Unlike the great houses these greenhouses in many cases do not exist any
more and are only known from the whitewash on the walls and maybe a
rubble wall or two. There is nothing to preserve so a new but
oldfashioned greenhouse is a pastiche of what once was so I see no
problem in making modern greenhouses for the site. OK make them look in
keeping if you must but what period do you choose as these gardens
constantly changed with changing gardening practice, their purpose was
to grow food and flowers for the big house.


So you think a multi bay Venlo would be OK?

I doubt that would be needed to feed the "house" with fresh fruit and veg,
they tend to be used for monoculture (or garden centres).
But why not if the brief "feed the house" warranted it, certainly any Head
Gardener with the same brief as old would be using polytunnels these days to
grow the more delicate fruit and veg to perfection and out of season. But
polytunnels are probably a step into the modern world too far for the NT in
one of these walled gardens.

My comments were about rebuilding the derelict greenhouses in a modern way
which would help the gardeners, the plants and prove more durable, maybe
even cheaper too especially in the long run.

A few modern walled gardens spread around the country would be a great help
to the NT gardeners, they would get experience of up to the moment
equipment, ideas and plant production, as would the NT customers, instead of
the constant showing of the Victorian garden (but without all their highly
poisonous chemicals being mentioned) which I find rather boring and overdone
now.
--
Regards. Bob Hobden.
Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK

National Trust walled gardens
 

On 04/01/2015 16:37, Bob Hobden wrote:
"David" wrote ...

Bob Hobden wrote:
"Sacha" wrote

Jeff Layman said:

Bob Hobden wrote:
I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a
significant number
of it's walled gardens into production. My problem is that I've
heard they
intend to remake the old greenhouses as they were, all manual and in
wood,
instead of using modern materials and automation and things like
double
glazing for the orchid houses. Personally I think that is crazy as
the old
Head Gardeners would never have countenanced such a retrograde step.
What do others think?

Well, if there weren't any Grade 1 or 2 listing, you could make an
argument for double glazing and LED lighting in any NT property. But
they wouldn't look right, and I guess the NT are using a similar
argument for greenhouses.

And would I want to visit such modern greenhouses to see how they
were being used to grow things? I very much doubt it.

Imo, the greenhouses could be made to the old design but use methods
that cut down on labour. We have to remember that these houses would
have had a dozen gardeners. Now, labour costs mean they'd be lucky to
have 3 and some volunteers

Unlike the great houses these greenhouses in many cases do not exist any
more and are only known from the whitewash on the walls and maybe a
rubble wall or two. There is nothing to preserve so a new but
oldfashioned greenhouse is a pastiche of what once was so I see no
problem in making modern greenhouses for the site. OK make them look in
keeping if you must but what period do you choose as these gardens
constantly changed with changing gardening practice, their purpose was
to grow food and flowers for the big house.


So you think a multi bay Venlo would be OK?

I doubt that would be needed to feed the "house" with fresh fruit and
veg, they tend to be used for monoculture (or garden centres).
But why not if the brief "feed the house" warranted it, certainly any
Head Gardener with the same brief as old would be using polytunnels
these days to grow the more delicate fruit and veg to perfection and out
of season. But polytunnels are probably a step into the modern world too
far for the NT in one of these walled gardens.

My comments were about rebuilding the derelict greenhouses in a modern
way which would help the gardeners, the plants and prove more durable,
maybe even cheaper too especially in the long run.

A few modern walled gardens spread around the country would be a great
help to the NT gardeners, they would get experience of up to the moment
equipment, ideas and plant production, as would the NT customers,
instead of the constant showing of the Victorian garden (but without all
their highly poisonous chemicals being mentioned) which I find rather
boring and overdone now.
By that reasoning most of the houses would have been sold off and
converted into multiple appartments or demolished and blocks of flats
built in their places.
Just as people like to see the houses in their past glory, many like to
see the gardens as they were complete with replica or restored
greenhouses, cold frames, cloches etc.
Think of them as living museums not as economic units.
David

National Trust walled gardens
 

"Chris Hogg" wrote

Jeff Layman wrote:

Bob Hobden wrote:
"Jeff Layman" wrote ...

, Bob Hobden wrote:
I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a significant
number
of it's walled gardens into production. My problem is that I've heard
they
intend to remake the old greenhouses as they were, all manual and in
wood,
instead of using modern materials and automation and things like
double
glazing for the orchid houses. Personally I think that is crazy as the
old
Head Gardeners would never have countenanced such a retrograde step.
What do others think?

Well, if there weren't any Grade 1 or 2 listing, you could make an
argument
for double glazing and LED lighting in any NT property. But they
wouldn't
look right, and I guess the NT are using a similar argument for
greenhouses.

And would I want to visit such modern greenhouses to see how they were
being used to grow things? I very much doubt it.

I understand about the houses but the gardens are for growing produce
and
that is their only purpose, so I see nothing wrong and everything right
in
them using the most modern techniques and equipment to achieve that. The
Head Gardener, if he was still around, would embrace any modern
improvement.
A super modern large greenhouse would be much more interesting than an
old
plain museum piece, there are hundreds of those already. It's all about
the
plants.

I am afraid that I disagree. You can't disentangle the houses and
gardens - they are inextricably linked. The gardens are for growing
produce, but not in a modern way. If you look at the "About us" at the
bottom of the NT webpages, the first thing it states is "We're a UK
conservation charity...". Note *conservation* - not modernisation. If
you want modernisation, you go to the RHS gardens, and perhaps some
other gardens open to the public. Where do you stop the "improvements"?
Are you going to get rid of all the heritage fruit and veg because it
doesn't crop as well or has poor disease resistance?

The NT has always had a problem with conservation of old buildings - how
far back does it go? What do you do with Georgian, Regency, or Victorian
changes to Tudor buildings, for example? Well, whatever is decided, it
won't include new central heating and solar panels on the roofs! Would
you put solar panels in the walled gardens to help heat the greenhouses?

I tend to agree. At Heligan for example (not NT, I know, but the
argument is the same) they've rebuilt the glasshouses using
traditional materials AIUI, even to the extent of having the panes of
glass in the roof with a curved edge (called a beaver tail, I
believe), so that rainwater collects on the tip and runs down the
centre of the strip of panes, away from the wooden glazing bars.
They've also recreated the pineapple beds heated by horse manure. The
alternative, aluminium glazing bars, large panes and electric heating
from solar panels or windmills for example, would be wholly
inappropriate. They've also brought back to life the ram pumps that
supplied water to the estate from the river, even though there's a
perfectly good modern mains water supply available and has been for
many decades.

People want to see these things as they were. It's the whole object of
the exercise. It's what the NT is all about, as is Heligan for that
matter. If the NT wants to grow stuff commercially in a glasshouse,
for example for sale in the NT shop, then do it in a poly-tunnel away
from public view. If the public want to see a modern glasshouse or
equivalent, they go to the Eden Project or similar.


Yes, Heligan et al are interesting but how many of them do you want.

These old Victorian walled gardens are now two a penny, they are everywhere
and you only need to go to one and you have done the lot. Yes it's
interesting seeing how they used to do it without the modern equipment and
ideas but when do we get to see the modern equipment and ideas put into
practice? They all tend to be commercial so you can't. Going to Eden or Kew
or Wisley won't show you anything of how it all works because they hide it
all away from the visitors gaze.

Dare I say it but these pseudo Victorian gardens are getting rather boring,
and possibly misleading for the visitors who get a very romantic and totally
unrealistic cosy image of a Victorian gardener. They even ensure the punters
can't see the modern machinery like cultivators being used so it doesn't
spoil the image.

Yes, in some of the gardens where there is little of the old structures left
I would use double glazing and UPVC and powder coated Ally and computer
controls and all the other modern stuff available including solar panels in
some of the gardens to roof the sheds etc. Lets see how it would be done
now. A few 21st century walled gardens spread around the country as a
counterpoint to all the kitsch.
--
Regards. Bob Hobden.
Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK

National Trust walled gardens
 

In article ,
says...
These old Victorian walled gardens are now two a penny, they are everywhere
and you only need to go to one and you have done the lot.


Yes, in some of the gardens where there is little of the old structures left
I would use double glazing and UPVC and powder coated Ally and computer
controls and all the other modern stuff available including solar panels in
some of the gardens to roof the sheds etc.

Surely your same argument would apply? "Once you'd seen one you've
seen the lot."

The NT's remit is not about teaching the public to garden or
demonstrating modern technology. That's for the RHS to do, or modern
gardens like Eden.

Janet

National Trust walled gardens
 

"Janet" wrote ...


says...
These old Victorian walled gardens are now two a penny, they are
everywhere
and you only need to go to one and you have done the lot.


Yes, in some of the gardens where there is little of the old structures
left
I would use double glazing and UPVC and powder coated Ally and computer
controls and all the other modern stuff available including solar panels
in
some of the gardens to roof the sheds etc.

Surely your same argument would apply? "Once you'd seen one you've
seen the lot."

The NT's remit is not about teaching the public to garden or
demonstrating modern technology. That's for the RHS to do, or modern
gardens like Eden.


Perhaps the NT should take on the mantle, they are very keen to show and
teach about the old ways why not the modern ways too so we can all see the
difference.
I would agree with you about teaching new ways but unfortunately the RHS and
Eden don't, they hide the controls and equipment away so they teach nothing
about modern greenhouse gardening, they only show pretty plants and
butterflies. How many visitors even know you can have a fully automatic
greenhouse (if you can afford it).

--
Regards. Bob Hobden.
Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK

National Trust walled gardens
 

Have followed this article with interest, so here's my
thoughts.

I do not support the NT, do do visit some of their properties,
so am neutral on that.

It seems to me if the NT think it is worth spending money on
building old fashioned style greenhouses, then they MUST grow
only the crops and varieties that were available in the period
they are mimicking.

Good luck to them, presumably they will do some monitoring of
visits etc at one rebuild before spreading it across the
country?

--
Roger T

700 ft up in Mid-Wales

National Trust walled gardens
 

In article ,
says...

"Janet" wrote ...

The NT's remit is not about teaching the public to garden or
demonstrating modern technology. That's for the RHS to do, or modern
gardens like Eden.


Perhaps the NT should take on the mantle, they are very keen to show and
teach about the old ways why not the modern ways too

The NT is a registered charity, completely independent of Government.
It's legally obliged to comply with its founders Charitable aim, which
is to preserve and protect historic places. It's funded by donors and
members who support those aims.

If a charity fails to satisfy its financial supporters they will
take their money elsewhere.

Janet.

National Trust walled gardens
 

"Janet" wrote
says...

"Janet" wrote ...

The NT's remit is not about teaching the public to garden or
demonstrating modern technology. That's for the RHS to do, or modern
gardens like Eden.


Perhaps the NT should take on the mantle, they are very keen to show and
teach about the old ways why not the modern ways too

The NT is a registered charity, completely independent of Government.
It's legally obliged to comply with its founders Charitable aim, which
is to preserve and protect historic places. It's funded by donors and
members who support those aims.

If a charity fails to satisfy its financial supporters they will
take their money elsewhere.



My point entirely, if there is nothing historic to protect why build a
pastiche.
--
Regards. Bob Hobden.
Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK

National Trust walled gardens
 

"Bob Hobden" wrote in message
...
I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a significant
number of it's walled gardens into production. My problem is that I've
heard they intend to remake the old greenhouses as they were, all manual
and in wood, instead of using modern materials and automation and things
like double glazing for the orchid houses. Personally I think that is crazy
as the old Head Gardeners would never have countenanced such a retrograde
step.
What do others think?

-- Regards
Bob Hobden
Posting to this Newsgroup
from the W.of London. UK

Well I think they should go for the look, but is daft to do what Heligan
did, they are constantly having to maintain the restored glasshouses which
you can't go in because its not safety glass,

--
Charlie, Gardening in Cornwall
Holders of National Collections of Clematis viticella
and Lapageria rosea cvs
http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk

National Trust walled gardens
 

On 2015-01-05 10:10:53 +0000, Roger Tonkin said:

Have followed this article with interest, so here's my
thoughts.

I do not support the NT, do do visit some of their properties,
so am neutral on that.

It seems to me if the NT think it is worth spending money on
building old fashioned style greenhouses, then they MUST grow
only the crops and varieties that were available in the period
they are mimicking.

Good luck to them, presumably they will do some monitoring of
visits etc at one rebuild before spreading it across the
country?

I take your point but afaik, they try to grow things that can be sold
and certainly supply their own cafés, where possible. If old varieties
are either less productive, or more labour intensive, that isn't going
to work. It's often overlooked that the properties they look after do
have to 'wash their own faces', if at all possible and must produce
some form of income for their own benefit. If it's just our proverbial
half a crown that's how it has to be but if it can sell and use crops,
then it must. These places cost a fortune to look after.
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon

National Trust walled gardens
 

On 2015-01-03 22:26:41 +0000, Bob Hobden said:

"Sacha" wrote

Bob Hobden said:

I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a significant
number of it's walled gardens into production. My problem is that I've
heard they intend to remake the old greenhouses as they were, all
manual and in wood, instead of using modern materials and automation
and things like double glazing for the orchid houses. Personally I
think that is crazy as the old Head Gardeners would never have
countenanced such a retrograde step.
What do others think?

The problem with the NT is that they do have a mindset which is that
the house/garden/outbuildings must be kept as they were in their heyday
- whatever part of their history that might be. For myself, I'd say
use modern methods (NOT pvc greenhouses) but have notices that explain
how things would have been whenever.

My point is that the old Head Gardeners wanted the best and latest and
he would not have had a wooden hands on greenhouse made today. They are
labour intensive and prone to rot quickly if not constantly cared for.
There are some at West Dean that were replaced a few years ago and they
are already having problems with paint peeling exposing timber
(although they don't seem to be doing anything about it).
There are so many of these old greenhouses about now it's about time
they changed to a modern way of doing things. Perhaps they will come up
to date in at least one walled garden, I can but hope. It would be so
much more interesting seeing what can be done now.

I'm anti-pvc but if they can't maintain the greenhouses, then it would
be better to be rid of them and not have the expense. That, too,
happened in many old houses when still inhabited by their owners! If
you could bring 18th or 19th century owners into our time and tell them
they could enjoy crops from all over the world for far less than the
cost of maintaining a staff and greenhouse, I am perfectly certain that
I know which they'd choose. It's very interesting to read James
Less-Milne's Diaries on the early days of the NT and the struggles
owners of such properties experienced.
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon

National Trust walled gardens
 

On 05/01/2015 18:49, sacha wrote:
On 2015-01-03 22:26:41 +0000, Bob Hobden said:

"Sacha" wrote

Bob Hobden said:

I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a
significant number of it's walled gardens into production. My
problem is that I've heard they intend to remake the old greenhouses
as they were, all manual and in wood, instead of using modern
materials and automation and things like double glazing for the
orchid houses. Personally I think that is crazy as the old Head
Gardeners would never have countenanced such a retrograde step.
What do others think?

The problem with the NT is that they do have a mindset which is that
the house/garden/outbuildings must be kept as they were in their
heyday - whatever part of their history that might be. For myself,
I'd say use modern methods (NOT pvc greenhouses) but have notices
that explain how things would have been whenever.

My point is that the old Head Gardeners wanted the best and latest and
he would not have had a wooden hands on greenhouse made today. They
are labour intensive and prone to rot quickly if not constantly cared
for. There are some at West Dean that were replaced a few years ago
and they are already having problems with paint peeling exposing
timber (although they don't seem to be doing anything about it).
There are so many of these old greenhouses about now it's about time
they changed to a modern way of doing things. Perhaps they will come
up to date in at least one walled garden, I can but hope. It would be
so much more interesting seeing what can be done now.

I'm anti-pvc but if they can't maintain the greenhouses, then it would
be better to be rid of them and not have the expense. That, too,
happened in many old houses when still inhabited by their owners! If
you could bring 18th or 19th century owners into our time and tell them
they could enjoy crops from all over the world for far less than the
cost of maintaining a staff and greenhouse, I am perfectly certain that
I know which they'd choose. It's very interesting to read James
Less-Milne's Diaries on the early days of the NT and the struggles
owners of such properties experienced.

So they'd all go to Tesco?

National Trust walled gardens
 

On 2015-01-05 19:56:58 +0000, David said:

On 05/01/2015 18:49, sacha wrote:
On 2015-01-03 22:26:41 +0000, Bob Hobden said:

"Sacha" wrote

Bob Hobden said:

I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a
significant number of it's walled gardens into production. My
problem is that I've heard they intend to remake the old greenhouses
as they were, all manual and in wood, instead of using modern
materials and automation and things like double glazing for the
orchid houses. Personally I think that is crazy as the old Head
Gardeners would never have countenanced such a retrograde step.
What do others think?

The problem with the NT is that they do have a mindset which is that
the house/garden/outbuildings must be kept as they were in their
heyday - whatever part of their history that might be. For myself,
I'd say use modern methods (NOT pvc greenhouses) but have notices
that explain how things would have been whenever.

My point is that the old Head Gardeners wanted the best and latest and
he would not have had a wooden hands on greenhouse made today. They
are labour intensive and prone to rot quickly if not constantly cared
for. There are some at West Dean that were replaced a few years ago
and they are already having problems with paint peeling exposing
timber (although they don't seem to be doing anything about it).
There are so many of these old greenhouses about now it's about time
they changed to a modern way of doing things. Perhaps they will come
up to date in at least one walled garden, I can but hope. It would be
so much more interesting seeing what can be done now.

I'm anti-pvc but if they can't maintain the greenhouses, then it would
be better to be rid of them and not have the expense. That, too,
happened in many old houses when still inhabited by their owners! If
you could bring 18th or 19th century owners into our time and tell them
they could enjoy crops from all over the world for far less than the
cost of maintaining a staff and greenhouse, I am perfectly certain that
I know which they'd choose. It's very interesting to read James
Less-Milne's Diaries on the early days of the NT and the struggles
owners of such properties experienced.

So they'd all go to Tesco?

I'd say so. The main thing was preserving estates and houses to hand
on to the next generation and to provide for those working for the
estate. They were self-contained businesses, in effect. So saving money
where possible, to spend on the estate, was paramount. The reason they
grew their own was because there *were* no supermarkets, unlike now
when people grow their own for preference. I really doubt those old
'uns waxed lyrical about the health benefits of veg or organic growing.
They grew them because they liked eating them. And of course, they also
liked (in the grandest houses) vying with each other to put the
earliest spring veg and fruits on the table!
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

National Trust walled gardens
 

On 03/01/2015 18:38, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 03/01/15 15:41, Bob Hobden wrote:
I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a significant
number
of it's walled gardens into production. My problem is that I've heard
they
intend to remake the old greenhouses as they were, all manual and in
wood,
instead of using modern materials and automation and things like double
glazing for the orchid houses. Personally I think that is crazy as the
old
Head Gardeners would never have countenanced such a retrograde step.
What do others think?

Well, if there weren't any Grade 1 or 2 listing, you could make an
argument for double glazing and LED lighting in any NT property. But
they wouldn't look right, and I guess the NT are using a similar
argument for greenhouses.

And would I want to visit such modern greenhouses to see how they were
being used to grow things? I very much doubt it.


Bit off topic but in a seventeenth century house LED lighting is no more
anachronistic than hot tungsten. Getting the colour balance right might
mean specialist sources though.

National Trust walled gardens
 

"Paul Luton" wrote

Bit off topic but in a seventeenth century house LED lighting is no more
anachronistic than hot tungsten. Getting the colour balance right might
mean specialist sources though.


When the Government first said they were going to get rid of tungsten bulbs
I contacted the NT because they have lots of crystal chandeliers and asked
them what they intended to use instead because we also have a few crystal
chandeliers and the CFL's that were being pushed at us simply do not work in
them. They replied that they were changing over to clear halogen bulbs.
However that was before LEDs became as good as they are now and I suspect
that is what they will change over to eventually.
--
Regards. Bob Hobden.
Posted to this Newsgroup from the W of London, UK

National Trust walled gardens
 

On 2015-01-09 13:26:10 +0000, Martin said:

On Thu, 08 Jan 2015 22:14:09 +0000, Paul Luton
wrote:

On 03/01/2015 18:38, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 03/01/15 15:41, Bob Hobden wrote:
I understand the National Trust is to try to bring back a significant
number
of it's walled gardens into production. My problem is that I've heard
they
intend to remake the old greenhouses as they were, all manual and in
wood,
instead of using modern materials and automation and things like double
glazing for the orchid houses. Personally I think that is crazy as the
old
Head Gardeners would never have countenanced such a retrograde step.
What do others think?

Well, if there weren't any Grade 1 or 2 listing, you could make an
argument for double glazing and LED lighting in any NT property. But
they wouldn't look right, and I guess the NT are using a similar
argument for greenhouses.

And would I want to visit such modern greenhouses to see how they were
being used to grow things? I very much doubt it.


Bit off topic but in a seventeenth century house LED lighting is no more
anachronistic than hot tungsten. Getting the colour balance right might
mean specialist sources though.

As the Amsterdam Vincent Van Gogh museum has found out getting wrong can damage
millions of pounds worth of paintings.

If you want to visit Cotehele, go on a sunny day. There is no lighting!
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

National Trust walled gardens
 

On 2015-01-09 16:44:48 +0000, Martin said:

On Fri, 9 Jan 2015 16:07:35 +0000, Sacha wrote:

On 2015-01-09 13:26:10 +0000, Martin said:
snip

As the Amsterdam Vincent Van Gogh museum has found out getting wrong can damage
millions of pounds worth of paintings.

If you want to visit Cotehele, go on a sunny day. There is no lighting!

The Louvre used to be like that.
Lighting in the VVG Museum has bleached the reds in the paintings.

Oh my goodness, that's criminal!
--

Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.com
South Devon
www.helpforheroes.org.uk

National Trust walled gardens
 

On 11/01/2015 09:43, Martin wrote:
This article says it wasn't caused by LED lighting. It was yellows that
deteriorated not reds.

IAC very unlikely to be LED lighting. The colours are in a series of
very narrow bands, usually blue/green/red, or in cheap ones blue/yellow.
They use fluorescence to generate the red/yellow/green from the blue.

Unlike (compact) fluorescent lights, which use UV from mercury vapour
rather than blue. UV is seriously bad news for damaging things.

Neither has very good colour rendition. I'd hope a gallery would keep
some kind on incandescent to avoid problems from discontinuous spectra.

Andy