Hi,

Got an old hawthorn hedge and I hate it - it's manky, bare in winter and
horrid to trim. So it's going. I'll keep one in tree form as it needs no
maintenance work.

I was mooting the idea of a silver beech hedge, but as I have 4 or so
self seeded holly bushes (plus a tree) I thought it would be nice to
keep the theme. Holly is not as objectionable as hawthorne, it's
evergreen, the berries are cute and it's easy to trim.


We're on heavy clay, but the hedge is on higher ground. Current holly is
"standard English dark green with red berries and pointy leaves" - no
idea which sub species.

So I was wondering if I could add some other types of holly for variety
- different colours, styles?

The real questions a

1) If standard English green is happy, then will all varieties likely be
happy with the clay? This is south and west facing - plenty of light on
one side at least.

2) Roots. Have a sewer about 3-4 foot down under the hedge. The
hawthorne got into it and Southern Water had to come and fix it. I
promised to remove that particular hawthorn plant at the least.

How deep to holly roots go?

3) Side question - I'll pay a tree surgeon to chainsaw and mince the old
hedge. It's going to be hard to remove some 25-30 stumps (about 3-4"
wide at most). If I add stump killer, am I likely to be able to get away
with planting the holly in between?


Many many thanks

Tim

On 02/12/17 12:23, Tim Watts wrote:
Hi,

Got an old hawthorn hedge and I hate it - it's manky, bare in winter and
horrid to trim. So it's going. I'll keep one in tree form as it needs no
maintenance work.

I was mooting the idea of a silver beech hedge, but as I have 4 or so
self seeded holly bushes (plus a tree) I thought it would be nice to
keep the theme. Holly is not as objectionable as hawthorne, it's
evergreen, the berries are cute and it's easy to trim.


We're on heavy clay, but the hedge is on higher ground. Current holly is
"standard English dark green with red berries and pointy leaves" - no
idea which sub species.

So I was wondering if I could add some other types of holly for variety
- different colours, styles?

The real questions a

1) If standard English green is happy, then will all varieties likely be
happy with the clay? This is south and west facing - plenty of light on
one side at least.

2) Roots. Have a sewer about 3-4 foot down under the hedge. The
hawthorne got into it and Southern Water had to come and fix it. I
promised to remove that particular hawthorn plant at the least.

How deep to holly roots go?

3) Side question - I'll pay a tree surgeon to chainsaw and mince the old
hedge. It's going to be hard to remove some 25-30 stumps (about 3-4"
wide at most). If I add stump killer, am I likely to be able to get away
with planting the holly in between?


Many many thanks

Tim

I was in a similar situation to you this time last year, but the hedge
was Lawson's cypress. There were a couple of dozen trees, which had been
topped off years ago around 6 metres high, and not bothered with until
we moved in 5 years ago. We had tree surgeons in to tidy them up a
couple of times, but they were really unsalvageable. Some were
doubled-trunked, others single; they varied from about 15 cm to nearly
30 cm in diameter. Last November we had them taken down and the
stumps/roots ground down, in readiness for planting a holly hedge. It's
a amazing how much air was incorporated in the soil when this had been
done. I reckon the soil surface was 10 - 15 cm higher than it had been.
I assumed this would leave the soil in great condition when the ground
wood material rotted. But after a few days of heavy rain, the soil
effectively collapsed, and after it had dried again, I couldn't get a
spade into it - it had basically turned into a sort of reinforced
concrete composed of dried soil with lengths of shredded wood! If you do
go for grinding rather than use root killer as recommended by Chris, you
might find it advantageous to dig the planting holes immediately after
grinding to avoid the problem I had.

After three months it was a bit easier to work, but I still needed a
ground spike to loosen the soil before digging the planting holes. I
bought 10 Ilex aquifolium "Argentea Marginata" and 10 "Alaska" (both
females) from Welsh Holly (http://www.welsh-holly.co.uk/hollies.htm).
They were 100 - 120 cm tall, as I wanted quick growth. They were planted
alternately a metre apart just in front of a larch-lap fence. That's a
lot further apart than recommended, but I didn't need the hedge to start
below 6 ft as the fence was there.

They've been in about 9 months now, and put on a few cm of growth. Every
one of the "Alaska" has berries. There are none yet on the variegated
"Argentea", but it's early days.

The soil here is clayey, but had been "improved" by the cypress needles
a bit over the years. The hollies seem ok in it. According to the Welsh
Holly website, they don't like their feet wet. If that's the case, Wales
would be the last place I'd try to grow them! But they seem to be good
plants - I've had more problem with drought than them being too wet,
having had to soak them several times this year.

--

Jeff

On 03/12/17 08:48, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sat, 2 Dec 2017 12:23:53 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:

Hi,

Got an old hawthorn hedge and I hate it - it's manky, bare in winter and
horrid to trim. So it's going. I'll keep one in tree form as it needs no
maintenance work.

I was mooting the idea of a silver beech hedge, but as I have 4 or so
self seeded holly bushes (plus a tree) I thought it would be nice to
keep the theme. Holly is not as objectionable as hawthorne, it's
evergreen, the berries are cute and it's easy to trim.


We're on heavy clay, but the hedge is on higher ground. Current holly is
"standard English dark green with red berries and pointy leaves" - no
idea which sub species.

So I was wondering if I could add some other types of holly for variety
- different colours, styles?

The real questions a

1) If standard English green is happy, then will all varieties likely be
happy with the clay? This is south and west facing - plenty of light on
one side at least.

Many hollies available are varieties of the common holly, Ilex
aquifolium, so should do as well. They will grow on clay, but not if
it's waterlogged. https://www.rhs.org.uk/plants/details?plantid=6332

Some interesting varieties he
http://www.gardenersworld.com/plants...llies-to-grow/
If you want lots of berries, get female varieties but have at least
one male among them for pollination, otherwise no berries! Be aware
that the names are misleading; Silver Queen is male, Golden King is
female!

2) Roots. Have a sewer about 3-4 foot down under the hedge. The
hawthorne got into it and Southern Water had to come and fix it. I
promised to remove that particular hawthorn plant at the least.

How deep to holly roots go?

No idea. A big tree will probably put down quite deep roots
eventually, but that would take many decades (they live for centuries,
potentially). I wouldn't worry too much about it.

3) Side question - I'll pay a tree surgeon to chainsaw and mince the old
hedge. It's going to be hard to remove some 25-30 stumps (about 3-4"
wide at most). If I add stump killer, am I likely to be able to get away
with planting the holly in between?

Drill two or three half-inch holes, say three inches down into the
stumps; fill the holes with 'compost accelerator' (aka 'Root Out',
ammonium sulphamate, https://tinyurl.com/y7btjaqy ), cover with a
slate, flower pot or poly bag, to keep the rain out, and that will
kill the stumps without poisoning the soil. Ammonium sulphamate slowly
breaks down in the soil over a few weeks anyway, so any that gets into
the soil, either spilled or diffused out from the dead hawthorn roots,
won't hang around for long.


Many many thanks

Tim


Brilliant - thanks Chris!

On 03/12/17 08:51, Chris Hogg wrote:
PS: I forgot to mention that the old hedge will probably have depleted
the soil over the years, so dig in lots of compost when you plant the
new hedge, to re-invigorate the soil.


I want to put a mini fence there too - just a couple of foot high, to
stop dogs coming in and balls rolling out and down the hill.

I'll get a trailer of manure and stick it in once the hawthorn is down,
then fit the fence, then plant the holly. That will probably be a 2
month gap for the manure to break down and be a bit less hot on the new
plants.

On 03/12/17 13:23, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 02/12/17 12:23, Tim Watts wrote:
Hi,

Got an old hawthorn hedge and I hate it - it's manky, bare in winter and
horrid to trim. So it's going. I'll keep one in tree form as it needs no
maintenance work.

I was mooting the idea of a silver beech hedge, but as I have 4 or so
self seeded holly bushes (plus a tree) I thought it would be nice to
keep the theme. Holly is not as objectionable as hawthorne, it's
evergreen, the berries are cute and it's easy to trim.


We're on heavy clay, but the hedge is on higher ground. Current holly is
"standard English dark green with red berries and pointy leaves" - no
idea which sub species.

So I was wondering if I could add some other types of holly for variety
- different colours, styles?

The real questions a

1) If standard English green is happy, then will all varieties likely be
happy with the clay? This is south and west facing - plenty of light on
one side at least.

2) Roots. Have a sewer about 3-4 foot down under the hedge. The
hawthorne got into it and Southern Water had to come and fix it. I
promised to remove that particular hawthorn plant at the least.

How deep to holly roots go?

3) Side question - I'll pay a tree surgeon to chainsaw and mince the old
hedge. It's going to be hard to remove some 25-30 stumps (about 3-4"
wide at most). If I add stump killer, am I likely to be able to get away
with planting the holly in between?


Many many thanks

Tim

I was in a similar situation to you this time last year, but the hedge
was Lawson's cypress. There were a couple of dozen trees, which had been
topped off years ago around 6 metres high, and not bothered with until
we moved in 5 years ago. We had tree surgeons in to tidy them up a
couple of times, but they were really unsalvageable. Some were
doubled-trunked, others single; they varied from about 15 cm to nearly
30 cm in diameter. Last November we had them taken down and the
stumps/roots ground down, in readiness for planting a holly hedge. It's
a amazing how much air was incorporated in the soil when this had been
done. I reckon the soil surface was 10 - 15 cm higher than it had been.
I assumed this would leave the soil in great condition when the ground
wood material rotted. But after a few days of heavy rain, the soil
effectively collapsed,Â* and after it had dried again, I couldn't get a
spade into it - it had basically turned into a sort of reinforced
concrete composed of dried soil with lengths of shredded wood! If you do
go for grinding rather than use root killer as recommended by Chris, you
might find it advantageous to dig the planting holes immediately after
grinding to avoid the problem I had.

Thank you for that tip

My soil is likely to go the same way...



After three months it was a bit easier to work, but I still needed a
ground spike to loosen the soil before digging the planting holes. I
bought 10 Ilex aquifolium "Argentea Marginata" and 10 "Alaska" (both
females) from Welsh Holly (http://www.welsh-holly.co.uk/hollies.htm).
They were 100 - 120 cm tall, as I wanted quick growth. They were planted
alternately a metre apart just in front of a larch-lap fence. That's a
lot further apart than recommended, but I didn't need the hedge to start
below 6 ft as the fence was there.

They've been in about 9 months now, and put on a few cm of growth. Every
one of the "Alaska" has berries. There are none yet on the variegated
"Argentea", but it's early days.

The soil here is clayey, but had been "improved" by the cypress needles
a bit over the years. The hollies seem ok in it. According to the Welsh
Holly website, they don't like their feet wet. If that's the case, Wales
would be the last place I'd try to grow them! But they seem to be good
plants - I've had more problem with drought than them being too wet,
having had to soak them several times this year.


All my hedges are 1-2 ft above the pavement on mounds so despite the
clay, they seem to not waterlog there (lower parts of the garden do).

On Sunday, December 3, 2017 at 5:24:32 PM UTC, Tim Watts wrote:
On 03/12/17 13:23, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 02/12/17 12:23, Tim Watts wrote:
Hi,

Got an old hawthorn hedge and I hate it - it's manky, bare in winter and
horrid to trim. So it's going. I'll keep one in tree form as it needs no
maintenance work.

I was mooting the idea of a silver beech hedge, but as I have 4 or so
self seeded holly bushes (plus a tree) I thought it would be nice to
keep the theme. Holly is not as objectionable as hawthorne, it's
evergreen, the berries are cute and it's easy to trim.


We're on heavy clay, but the hedge is on higher ground. Current holly is
"standard English dark green with red berries and pointy leaves" - no
idea which sub species.

So I was wondering if I could add some other types of holly for variety
- different colours, styles?

The real questions a

1) If standard English green is happy, then will all varieties likely be
happy with the clay? This is south and west facing - plenty of light on
one side at least.

2) Roots. Have a sewer about 3-4 foot down under the hedge. The
hawthorne got into it and Southern Water had to come and fix it. I
promised to remove that particular hawthorn plant at the least.

How deep to holly roots go?

3) Side question - I'll pay a tree surgeon to chainsaw and mince the old
hedge. It's going to be hard to remove some 25-30 stumps (about 3-4"
wide at most). If I add stump killer, am I likely to be able to get away
with planting the holly in between?


Many many thanks

Tim

I was in a similar situation to you this time last year, but the hedge
was Lawson's cypress. There were a couple of dozen trees, which had been
topped off years ago around 6 metres high, and not bothered with until
we moved in 5 years ago. We had tree surgeons in to tidy them up a
couple of times, but they were really unsalvageable. Some were
doubled-trunked, others single; they varied from about 15 cm to nearly
30 cm in diameter. Last November we had them taken down and the
stumps/roots ground down, in readiness for planting a holly hedge. It's
a amazing how much air was incorporated in the soil when this had been
done. I reckon the soil surface was 10 - 15 cm higher than it had been.
I assumed this would leave the soil in great condition when the ground
wood material rotted. But after a few days of heavy rain, the soil
effectively collapsed,Â* and after it had dried again, I couldn't get a
spade into it - it had basically turned into a sort of reinforced
concrete composed of dried soil with lengths of shredded wood! If you do
go for grinding rather than use root killer as recommended by Chris, you
might find it advantageous to dig the planting holes immediately after
grinding to avoid the problem I had.

Thank you for that tip

My soil is likely to go the same way...



After three months it was a bit easier to work, but I still needed a
ground spike to loosen the soil before digging the planting holes. I
bought 10 Ilex aquifolium "Argentea Marginata" and 10 "Alaska" (both
females) from Welsh Holly (http://www.welsh-holly.co.uk/hollies.htm).
They were 100 - 120 cm tall, as I wanted quick growth. They were planted
alternately a metre apart just in front of a larch-lap fence. That's a
lot further apart than recommended, but I didn't need the hedge to start
below 6 ft as the fence was there.

They've been in about 9 months now, and put on a few cm of growth. Every
one of the "Alaska" has berries. There are none yet on the variegated
"Argentea", but it's early days.

The soil here is clayey, but had been "improved" by the cypress needles
a bit over the years. The hollies seem ok in it. According to the Welsh
Holly website, they don't like their feet wet. If that's the case, Wales
would be the last place I'd try to grow them! But they seem to be good
plants - I've had more problem with drought than them being too wet,
having had to soak them several times this year.


All my hedges are 1-2 ft above the pavement on mounds so despite the
clay, they seem to not waterlog there (lower parts of the garden do).

There's a reason pyracantha is so popular. Looks good all year round. Yes, prickly, but pruning (a little and often) is all it needs.

On 03/12/17 17:46, stuart noble wrote:

There's a reason pyracantha is so popular. Looks good all year round. Yes, prickly, but pruning (a little and often) is all it needs.

Prickly? It's not "prickly" - it's bloody lethal! And it grows much,
much, faster than any holly.

I have a 6 metre high double-trunked yellow-berried pyracantha here. A
couple of years ago I decided to prune one of the higher branches back a
bit as it was well over my neighbour's fence. I wore a thick padded
anorak, hard hat, thick gloves, and eye protection, and I still got
damaged! And it is very awkward to put through the shredder as you have
to prune off those long thorns first.

Yes, it looks wonderful when the berries are on it, and the birds do
seem to leave them alone. But seedlings tend to appear where you don't
want them, and even small ones have those sharp thorns, making them
difficult to pull up without gloves.

--

Jeff

In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:
On 03/12/17 17:46, stuart noble wrote:

There's a reason pyracantha is so popular. Looks good all year round.
Yes, prickly, but pruning (a little and often) is all it needs.

Prickly? It's not "prickly" - it's bloody lethal! And it grows much,
much, faster than any holly.

Indeed. Mine grew stems 6-8' high and 1-1.25" across in a season.
As I reacted to its thorns, I decided enough was enough and got rid
of it.

An even more lethal shrub is Berberis vulgaris, but it doesn't clip
well. Mine is (probably) the no-longer-extant variant "asperma",
which the national collection did/does? not have. Anyone who can
propagate deciduous berberis from cuttings (and they are a b*gg*r)
is welcome to contact me. Its berries are also useful in cooking,
and (because it is "asperma") there are very few seedlings.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On Saturday, 2 December 2017 12:23:57 UTC, Tim Watts wrote:
Hi,

Got an old hawthorn hedge and I hate it - it's manky, bare in winter and
horrid to trim. So it's going. I'll keep one in tree form as it needs no
maintenance work.

I was mooting the idea of a silver beech hedge, but as I have 4 or so
self seeded holly bushes (plus a tree) I thought it would be nice to
keep the theme. Holly is not as objectionable as hawthorne, it's
evergreen, the berries are cute and it's easy to trim.


We're on heavy clay, but the hedge is on higher ground. Current holly is
"standard English dark green with red berries and pointy leaves" - no
idea which sub species.

So I was wondering if I could add some other types of holly for variety
- different colours, styles?

The real questions a

1) If standard English green is happy, then will all varieties likely be
happy with the clay? This is south and west facing - plenty of light on
one side at least.

2) Roots. Have a sewer about 3-4 foot down under the hedge. The
hawthorne got into it and Southern Water had to come and fix it. I
promised to remove that particular hawthorn plant at the least.

How deep to holly roots go?

3) Side question - I'll pay a tree surgeon to chainsaw and mince the old
hedge. It's going to be hard to remove some 25-30 stumps (about 3-4"
wide at most). If I add stump killer, am I likely to be able to get away
with planting the holly in between?


Many many thanks

Tim

Felling them like a fairly easy diy job, even without a chainsaw.


NT

On 03/12/17 17:46, stuart noble wrote:

There's a reason pyracantha is so popular. Looks good all year round. Yes, prickly, but pruning (a little and often) is all it needs.


No thanks That's stuff makes hawthorn look soft and fluffy. I hate
spiky plants with a hatred that cannot be expressed by words alone.
Holly is the only one I'll tolerate as it's more scratchy than spiky.

On 04/12/2017 08:03, Tim Watts wrote:
On 03/12/17 17:46, stuart noble wrote:

There's a reason pyracantha is so popular. Looks good all year round.
Yes, prickly, but pruning (a little and often) is all it needs.


No thanks That's stuff makes hawthorn look soft and fluffy. I hate
spiky plants with a hatred that cannot be expressed by words alone.
Holly is the only one I'll tolerate as it's more scratchy than spiky.

I like pyracantha. Nice choice of coloured berries and it is more stock
proof than even hawthorn. The cows round here will eat holly for breakfast.

Holly seems to grow OK as a hedge on our heavy clay which is a bit on
the damp side in winter and too dry in summer (you may have to water for
a couple of summer seasons until it is established). The only problem is
that it is slow growing so if you tend to get stray cars through it then
replacements take a very long time to knot together as a hedge again.

I rather like the variagated cultivars with no spikes and red berries
and the more unusual ones with spikes and yellow berries. Can't recall
their names - a neighbour has them in their old holly hedge.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 05/12/17 08:39, Martin Brown wrote:
On 04/12/2017 08:03, Tim Watts wrote:
On 03/12/17 17:46, stuart noble wrote:

There's a reason pyracantha is so popular. Looks good all year round.
Yes, prickly, but pruning (a little and often) is all it needs.


No thanks That's stuff makes hawthorn look soft and fluffy. I hate
spiky plants with a hatred that cannot be expressed by words alone.
Holly is the only one I'll tolerate as it's more scratchy than spiky.

I like pyracantha. Nice choice of coloured berries and it is more stock
proof than even hawthorn. The cows round here will eat holly for breakfast.

Holly seems to grow OK as a hedge on our heavy clay which is a bit on
the damp side in winter and too dry in summer (you may have to water for
a couple of summer seasons until it is established). The only problem is
that it is slow growing so if you tend to get stray cars through it then
replacements take a very long time to knot together as a hedge again.

I rather like the variagated cultivars with no spikes and red berries
and the more unusual ones with spikes and yellow berries. Can't recall
their names - a neighbour has them in their old holly hedge.


Interesting - thanks Martin. I'll look out for those in the online
hedging suppliers.

On 05/12/2017 08:48, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 08:39:50 +0000, Martin Brown
wrote:

if you tend to get stray cars through it

Likely to be a regular occurrence when they become driverless :-)

I suspect likely to become a _less_ regular occurrence. Driverless cars
never fall asleep, and they always know where they are going. It's lack
of concentration and unexpected ends that put most cars in hedges.

Andy

On 06/12/2017 08:51, Martin wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 20:56:53 +0000, Vir Campestris
wrote:

On 05/12/2017 08:48, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 08:39:50 +0000, Martin Brown
wrote:

if you tend to get stray cars through it

Likely to be a regular occurrence when they become driverless :-)

I suspect likely to become a _less_ regular occurrence. Driverless cars
never fall asleep, and they always know where they are going. It's lack
of concentration and unexpected ends that put most cars in hedges.

ATM driverless cars lack the ability to anticipate all the idiot things drivers
do.

ATM, yes. By the time they get to production they'll have to be able to
survive class action lawsuits against the manufacturer. Imagine if
someone proved Ford liable for several deaths owing to a SW defect? It
would break the company. Driverless cars will be much safer. But not, as
you say, ATM.

Andy