On 25/05/18 10:12, Nick Maclaren wrote:

However, the UK's approach is to ban such things for amateurs, and
leave it essentially unregulated for industry, which is precisely why
the environmental problems don't improve. I use neonicotinamides, but
I assert that wiping out the UK's native population of sunbirds isn't
an ecological problem :-)

Just in case anyone is trying to follow up your post, I think I should
warn them that one of your relatives must have been Mrs Malaprop, as you
are referring to neonicotinoids, not new forms of vitamin B3! :-)

Even the stuff left for amateurs is, almost by definition, ineffective
because it has to be safe, and its use is usually restricted in terns of
application rates. And you can add to that the years of constant
"agricultural level" use which will mean that by the time amateurs need
it, the chemical has little effect because the target has already become
resistant.

--

Jeff

In article ,
Jeff Layman wrote:

However, the UK's approach is to ban such things for amateurs, and
leave it essentially unregulated for industry, which is precisely why
the environmental problems don't improve. I use neonicotinamides, but
I assert that wiping out the UK's native population of sunbirds isn't
an ecological problem :-)

Just in case anyone is trying to follow up your post, I think I should
warn them that one of your relatives must have been Mrs Malaprop, as you
are referring to neonicotinoids, not new forms of vitamin B3! :-)

Oops :-)


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 25/05/18 10:02, Martin Brown wrote:
On 23/05/2018 19:20, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 23/05/18 09:53, David Rance wrote:

The ironic thing is that my empty carton of Dithane (active ingredient
Mancozeb, which is where I started this thread) was reserved for amateur
gardeners. Thanks to the EU, no longer!

I'm not quite sure how it came to be banned.

Overuse in Belgian orchards vaguely rings a bell. The EU technical
report when it got put into Appendix I is online:

http://www.furs.si/law/EU/ffs/eng/an...R/Mancozeb.doc

I still can't see why it got banned after a quick flash read.

Why do you think mancozeb is banned? "Expiration of approval 30/04/2019"
http://ec.europa.eu/food/plant/pesticides/eu-pesticides-database/public/?event=activesubstance.detail&language=EN&selected ID=2017

Though approval doesn't mean that it is available for amateurs to use. I
haven't checked on its availability for any particular class of user.

Further to my misery, I discovered this morning that anthracnose has now
spread to my blackcurrants! Oh, malheur! I'm coming back to the UK
today!

Get used to it! Don't worry about diseases on food crops - we have to
protect the environment. The daft thing is that amateurs use minute
amounts of chemicals compared with the agricultural industry. And if
they are trying to protect amateurs from poisoning themselves through
stupidity when using chemicals, well, have these legislators never heard
of the Darwin Awards?!

I think there is some merit in banning the ones which could result in no
birds or no bees or are known to cause cancer. Where it gets tricky are
the ones which get abused by commercial crop growers and banned for all
uses despite the fact that they are fine to use on ornamental plants.

I don't disagree in principle with your statement, but I have a problem
with the way studies are carried out to prove or disprove a particular
concern. "Junk" science is alive and well everywhere, and most certainly
predates the current interest in "fake news". Of course, I could make a
somewhat controversial statement that it might not make as much
difference as generally thought if bees disappeared as pollinators.
There are many other pollinating insects, even if they may not be as
efficient as bees. And how do neonics affect them?

DDT is quite tricky in this respect in that it is well tolerated by
mammals, incredibly lethal to mosquitos but also bad news for birds.

Many older OPs the redspider has evolved fast enough to survive so you
need to use something else anyway (ideally alternating between two). I
have never found the organic control of them especially useful. YMMV

I think that abamectin is still available for RSM, but unfortunately the
only product with it also contained thiomethoxam, one of the "naughty"
neonics.

Neither can I entirely eliminate mealy bug from my collection.

It's difficult without something like dimethoate.

I wonder if there will be a ban on the sale of Nicotiana tabacum seeds
one day if anyone starts making their own insecticidal spray from it. ;-)

If you extract it right there is more than a human lethal dose of
nicotine from a packet of cigarettes. Gardeners did used to get poisoned
themselves by nicotine extract back in the days when it was on sale.

As they did with cyanide, mercuric salts, arsenic, and other effective
pesticides.

--

Jeff

David Rance wrote:
: On Fri, 25 May 2018 10:02:12 Martin Brown wrote:

: On 23/05/2018 19:20, Jeff Layman wrote:
: On 23/05/18 09:53, David Rance wrote:
:
: The ironic thing is that my empty carton of Dithane (active ingredient
: Mancozeb, which is where I started this thread) was reserved for amateur
: gardeners. Thanks to the EU, no longer!
:
: I'm not quite sure how it came to be banned.
:
: Overuse in Belgian orchards vaguely rings a bell. The EU technical
: report when it got put into Appendix I is online:
:
: http://www.furs.si/law/EU/ffs/eng/an...R/Mancozeb.doc
:
: I still can't see why it got banned after a quick flash read.

: After a quick scan myself, it seems as though it's poisonous to some
: fish and algae!

: Dithane disappeared from the shelves in France many years ago but
: fortunately I had a stock of it which has now run out - just when I need
: it!

: When I tried to find some in a brico shop a couple of years ago the
: assistant I spoke to hadn't even heard of it!

There are lots of hits here https://www.ebay.fr/sch/i.html?_nkw=dithane

Tom.

Ps. The email address in the header is just a spam-trap.
--
Tom Crane, Dept. Physics, Royal Holloway, University of London, Egham Hill,
Egham, Surrey, TW20 0EX, England.
Email: T dot Crane at rhul dot ac dot uk

On Sun, 27 May 2018 04:27:25 wrote:

David Rance wrote:
: On Fri, 25 May 2018 10:02:12 Martin Brown wrote:

: On 23/05/2018 19:20, Jeff Layman wrote:
: On 23/05/18 09:53, David Rance wrote:
:
: The ironic thing is that my empty carton of Dithane (active ingredient
: Mancozeb, which is where I started this thread) was reserved for amateur
: gardeners. Thanks to the EU, no longer!
:
: I'm not quite sure how it came to be banned.
:
: Overuse in Belgian orchards vaguely rings a bell. The EU technical
: report when it got put into Appendix I is online:
:
: http://www.furs.si/law/EU/ffs/eng/an...R/Mancozeb.doc
:
: I still can't see why it got banned after a quick flash read.

: After a quick scan myself, it seems as though it's poisonous to some
: fish and algae!

: Dithane disappeared from the shelves in France many years ago but
: fortunately I had a stock of it which has now run out - just when I need
: it!

: When I tried to find some in a brico shop a couple of years ago the
: assistant I spoke to hadn't even heard of it!

There are lots of hits here https://www.ebay.fr/sch/i.html?_nkw=dithane

I hadn't thought of eBay!. It seems to have made a come-back as the last
time I looked it wasn't available (about two or three years ago). Many
thanks, Tom, though it does seem to be extremely expensive now.

It was also interesting that one of the products for sale on the French
site had its origin in the UK!

Ps. The email address in the header is just a spam-trap.

So I see!

David

--
David Rance writing from Caversham, Reading, UK