"Hämisch Macbeth" wrote in message
...

Columbia bad, British Columbia Good, can you see a trend

;-)

M

"Malcolm" wrote in message
news:22a58d516fd1574410838038e9a126ab@TeraNews...

Lets hope your family doesn't live to regret your stupidity.

Oh, come one, Malcolm :-o With your sig, you have to have a sense of
humor! Lighten up. Life is very short for all of us. To enjoy it is the
key :-)

M

Michelle Fulton writes

I also wash all of my produce before consumption. I wonder......
Does anyone know of tests that have been done on the amounts of systemic
absorption of insecticides by food plants. In other words, what does the
plant absorb that can't be washed away?

Most of it. Fortunately:

1) It reduces by biological action quite quickly over time.
2) Few will move to new growth (ie, stays on the leaf it fell on) and so
goes when the leaf senesces.
3) There are strict timings for spray to harvest intervals.
4) Pesticides these days are stunningly non-toxic to humans. This is
very good for those who apply them.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

Tumbleweed writes

Plants are full of insecticides but I suppose you eat them all the time.
Seems daft to me. FWIW when tested using the same mechanisms as for man-made
pesticides, 50% of the naturally evolved pesticides tested were found to
cause cancer including chemicals in brocolli, lettuce and coffee.

See ames evidence to congress (well some committee, anyway).

====== a reply I wrote recently

Very many plants are toxic. I have read that some 15% of the drymatter
of typical plants comprises toxins (but I find this hard to believe).

Most toxins seem to be directed primarily at insects. That's hardly
surprising as they are the major pest of plants.

Typically only a small range of insects will feed on any given plant,
they will die or not thrive on another species simply because they are
not adapted to cope with toxins other than that of their selected plant.

Some insects concentrate the plant toxin to render themselves poisonous.

Some toxins found in plants:

Curcubin - squash/courgettes (killed a numebr in NZ a few yrs ago).
Solanin - members of the potato family.
Mustard oil - brassicae

A few plants I have forgotten the toxin name:
celery
cottonseed
red kidney beans

Note that many edible plants are packed with toxins, it makes them easy
to grow because they have few pests.

Plants also arrange for a number of physical barriers, hairs and sticky
gums for example.

Capsicain (sp) - the 'hot' bit of chillies is not hot to birds.

Many tree leaves (eg oaks) pack their leaves with tannins, that bind
protein so it cannot be digested. This drastically reduces or stops
growth in many pests.

NB

One I forgot, which is well documented, is phytoestrogens.

These are very common in plants and in some members of the legume family
are at high enough levels to cause serious effects on breeding.

It's long been known that feeding ewes on clovery swards at tupping time
can result in a near total failure to conceive because the ewes do not
cycle, effectively the phytoestrogen level in the feed acting in the
same way as 'the pill'. What this level of oestrogens does to the ram I
do not know.

Basically, in the few hundred million years animals have been eating
plants, one ought to expect a wide, varied and devious range of
mechanical and chemical armaments to have been evolved, together with
countermeasures.

Nature rarely disappoints.

======================

There is no reason to believe that naturally occurring pesticides will
be safe to humans (and rather the contrary) and of course none have been
tested and approved in the way that pesticides are.

Either the tests are wrong, or plants are just as dangerous as the man-made
chemicals you complain about and are actually more dangerous than ones that
havent been shown to cause cancer.

Indeed.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

Michelle Fulton writes

Wow! Why? It's so odd these days to not have *ever* taken anti-biotics.

You will when you get your first tooth abcess, trust me.

Mind you I shocked the dentist when I told him I had never had an
antibiotic until then.

I wasn't 'young', either (although feel young, the evidence is to the
contrary).

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

On Fri, 16 May 2003 03:01:38 GMT, "Michelle Fulton"
wrote:

"Malcolm" wrote in message
news:22a58d516fd1574410838038e9a126ab@TeraNews. ..

Lets hope your family doesn't live to regret your stupidity.

Oh, come one, Malcolm :-o With your sig, you have to have a sense of
humor! Lighten up. Life is very short for all of us. To enjoy it is the
key :-)

That's not fair, he doesn't have one! lol



--








So, you dont like reasoned,
well thought out, civil debate?

I understand.

/´¯/)
/¯../
/..../
/´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
/'/.../..../......./¨¯\
('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
\.................'...../
''...\.......... _.·´
\..............(
\.............\..

On Fri, 16 May 2003 06:50:56 +0100, Oz
wrote:

Michelle Fulton writes

I also wash all of my produce before consumption. I wonder......
Does anyone know of tests that have been done on the amounts of systemic
absorption of insecticides by food plants. In other words, what does the
plant absorb that can't be washed away?

4) Pesticides these days are stunningly non-toxic to humans.

Really, lets take a random example crop. carrots and corn, what's
sprayed on them that is non toxic, and what is toxic, in your mind of
course?

Lets not forget the herbicides that were sprayed first?


--








So, you dont like reasoned,
well thought out, civil debate?

I understand.

/´¯/)
/¯../
/..../
/´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
/'/.../..../......./¨¯\
('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
\.................'...../
''...\.......... _.·´
\..............(
\.............\..

In article ,
Oz wrote:


Either the tests are wrong, or plants are just as dangerous as the man-made
chemicals you complain about and are actually more dangerous than ones that
havent been shown to cause cancer.

Indeed.

I seem to remember reading of a study which showed that at least the
alkaloid pesticides in many food plants (fruits spring to mind) are
elevated in organically grown plants due to the higher pest load they
have to deal with. Pests not having been blitzed with nasty 'chemicals'.
But of course 'natural' pesticides must be good for you compared with
'chemical' pesticides.

Peter

--
Peter Ashby
School of Life Sciences, University of Dundee, Scotland
To assume that I speak for the University of Dundee is to be deluded.
Reverse the Spam and remove to email me.

On Fri, 16 May 2003 16:43:35 +0100, Peter Ashby
wrote:

In article ,
Oz wrote:


Either the tests are wrong, or plants are just as dangerous as the man-made
chemicals you complain about and are actually more dangerous than ones that
havent been shown to cause cancer.

Indeed.

I seem to remember reading of a study which showed that at least the
alkaloid pesticides in many food plants (fruits spring to mind) are
elevated in organically grown plants due to the higher pest load they
have to deal with. Pests not having been blitzed with nasty 'chemicals'.
But of course 'natural' pesticides must be good for you compared with
'chemical' pesticides.

Unnatural seems to have had a marked effect on you?


--








So, you dont like reasoned,
well thought out, civil debate?

I understand.

/´¯/)
/¯../
/..../
/´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
/'/.../..../......./¨¯\
('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
\.................'...../
''...\.......... _.·´
\..............(
\.............\..

"Malcolm" wrote in message
news:868cf3bf5a2380696138d9090f9c7987@TeraNews...

That's not fair, he doesn't have one! lol

Jim has a great sense of humor! You just have to lighten up so you can
appreciate it :-) I personally try to find humor in everything. I just
like to laugh and, in order not to appear insane walking around laughing at
nothing, I have to find excuses to laugh. ~

M

On Fri, 16 May 2003 16:02:27 GMT, "Michelle Fulton"
wrote:


"Malcolm" wrote in message
news:868cf3bf5a2380696138d9090f9c7987@TeraNews. ..

That's not fair, he doesn't have one! lol

Jim has a great sense of humor!

Hell he sure has me fooled.

You just have to lighten up so you can
appreciate it :-)

None lighter then me, my life here is one big party, that;s what I
thought usenet was for, to enjoy oneself?

I personally try to find humor in everything.

I normally find my humour has to come from something living, at least!

I just
like to laugh and, in order not to appear insane walking around laughing at
nothing, I have to find excuses to laugh. ~

You don't need an excuse to laugh, hell if we all done it more, we'd
be much better off.
--








So, you dont like reasoned,
well thought out, civil debate?

I understand.

/´¯/)
/¯../
/..../
/´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
/'/.../..../......./¨¯\
('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
\.................'...../
''...\.......... _.·´
\..............(
\.............\..

Peter Ashby writes

I seem to remember reading of a study which showed that at least the
alkaloid pesticides in many food plants (fruits spring to mind) are
elevated in organically grown plants due to the higher pest load they
have to deal with. Pests not having been blitzed with nasty 'chemicals'.

There have been many studies to show that when plants are attacked by
pests, levels of toxins rise significantly.

Even better if one is attacked, it notifies others by emitting
signalling vapours resulting in unattacked plants jacking their toxin
level up even though they are not being attacked (yet).

The diversion of energy into toxins slows plant growth and it is
believed (like strongly) that this is one reason why fungicide treated
plants yield more than untreated even in the absence of disease.

Given that many toxins taste bad (bitter and so on) this may be one
reason why 'typical' organic veg are reputed taste stronger than non-
organic. For example mustard oil (a horribly carcinogenic and toxic
brassica toxin) does taste like very strong mustard.

But of course 'natural' pesticides must be good for you compared with
'chemical' pesticides.

Personally I doubt it. Whenever they are tested for some reason, they
are truly nasty and wouldn't pass the initial screening for a pesticide.

In the case of potato and celery, disease resistant varieties have been
produced that turned out to be actually toxic. Fortunately these were
rapidly withdrawn.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

I seem to remember reading of a study which showed that at least the
alkaloid pesticides in many food plants (fruits spring to mind) are
elevated in organically grown plants due to the higher pest load they
have to deal with.

See how tender trees raised in protected allotments get hammered by
rabbits when put out. Given a few seasons in the weather they are much
more able to tough it out.

In article ,
Oz wrote:
.

In the case of potato and celery, disease resistant varieties have been
produced that turned out to be actually toxic. Fortunately these were
rapidly withdrawn.

Does this apply to plants prone to fungus as well like gooseberries with
milldew?

"Peter Ashby" wrote in message
news
In article ,
Oz wrote:


Either the tests are wrong, or plants are just as dangerous as the
man-made
chemicals you complain about and are actually more dangerous than ones
that
havent been shown to cause cancer.

Indeed.

I seem to remember reading of a study which showed that at least the
alkaloid pesticides in many food plants (fruits spring to mind) are
elevated in organically grown plants due to the higher pest load they
have to deal with. Pests not having been blitzed with nasty 'chemicals'.
But of course 'natural' pesticides must be good for you compared with
'chemical' pesticides.

Of course, as you say they are 'natural' and therefore not made of
chemicals, and secondly since they havent been created for profit they must
be good for you.

--
Tumbleweed

Remove my socks before replying (but no email reply necessary to newsgroups)