Robert Seago writes
In article ,
Oz wrote:
.

In the case of potato and celery, disease resistant varieties have been
produced that turned out to be actually toxic. Fortunately these were
rapidly withdrawn.

Does this apply to plants prone to fungus as well like gooseberries with
milldew?

I've no idea, and I doubt anyone else has.

Mostly plant toxins are unknown until people are made ill, and even then
it needs to be enough (ill or dead) to trigger an investigation.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

Robert Seago wrote in message ...

I seem to remember reading of a study which showed that at least the
alkaloid pesticides in many food plants (fruits spring to mind) are
elevated in organically grown plants due to the higher pest load they
have to deal with.

See how tender trees raised in protected allotments get hammered by
rabbits when put out. Given a few seasons in the weather they are much
more able to tough it out.


Huh? Older trees (or at least the parts of older trees that a
rabbit can reach) seem to be much less palatable to rabbits
than younger trees, but what has this to do with 'protected
allotments' and how on earth do you think that a tree can
ever 'tough it out' against rabbit incisors?

--
Anton

"Michelle Fulton" wrote in message
.com...

"Malcolm" wrote in message
news:868cf3bf5a2380696138d9090f9c7987@TeraNews...

That's not fair, he doesn't have one! lol

Jim has a great sense of humor! You just have to lighten up so you can
appreciate it :-) I personally try to find humor in everything. I just
like to laugh and, in order not to appear insane walking around laughing
at
nothing, I have to find excuses to laugh. ~



Put a mobile 'phone earphone and microphone on and you can go around
laughing and talking to yourself to your hearts content.

On Sat, 17 May 2003 07:41:38 +0100, "Hämisch Macbeth"
wrote:


"Michelle Fulton" wrote in message
y.com...

"Malcolm" wrote in message
news:868cf3bf5a2380696138d9090f9c7987@TeraNews...

That's not fair, he doesn't have one! lol

Jim has a great sense of humor! You just have to lighten up so you can
appreciate it :-) I personally try to find humor in everything. I just
like to laugh and, in order not to appear insane walking around laughing
at
nothing, I have to find excuses to laugh. ~



Put a mobile 'phone earphone and microphone on and you can go around
laughing and talking to yourself to your hearts content.


Jim obviously already does that, he has some fooled.
--








So, you dont like reasoned,
well thought out, civil debate?

I understand.

/´¯/)
/¯../
/..../
/´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
/'/.../..../......./¨¯\
('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
\.................'...../
''...\.......... _.·´
\..............(
\.............\..

"Malcolm" wrote in message
news:0162a5b6292500f2d55de2ca59c76e44@TeraNews...
On Thu, 15 May 2003 16:24:05 GMT, "Michelle Fulton"
wrote:


"Malcolm" wrote in message
news:f3cdf9dde3cec80908c88c978bc18fd8@TeraNews. ..

That's naive in the least. So you think the sprayer should be masked
and protected up to the hilt when spraying it, yet cannot see the
effect of those toxins once it has been sprayed, some of which stay
around for a year or more?

Probably a bit of naivety involved, but I think there is more danger
inhaling the stuff, and I'm not really sure how much of it ends up on my
dinner plate, what with rain, factory washing, me washing and the plant
enzymes destroying it.....

That's great, you know the facts, and you base your decision on that.

This is all we ask, the chance for us all to do the same. We are being
pumped full of this junk, which big business claims is safe, don't
worry, yet many of us do have genuine concerns.


You miss the point, 'organic' plants are also full of insecticides and
fungicides, naturally evolved to be super efficient at such stuff as
mimicking animal hormones, (see the recent news on soy milk, killing insects
etc.
When a random sample of around 50 of these chemicals was tested to the same
standards as man-made pesticides, 50% of them were found to be toxic, in
fact *much more* toxic than would be allowed for man-made chemicals. Thus
the man made pesticides about which you complain are less toxic than half
these naturally ocurring chemicals. You complain about 'junk' when you refer
to man-made chemicals that have undergone rigorous testing, yet you eat
plants full of hundreds of untested, probably more dangerous chemicals, with
no worries.

--
Tumbleweed

Remove my socks before replying (but no email reply necessary to newsgroups)

In article , Tumbleweed fromnews@myso
ckstumbleweed.freeserve.co.uk writes

You miss the point, 'organic' plants are also full of insecticides and
fungicides, naturally evolved to be super efficient at such stuff as
mimicking animal hormones, (see the recent news on soy milk

What news on soya milk would that be?

--
Paul Flackett

Remove _bra to reply by e-mail.

Victor Meldrew writes

What news on soya milk would that be?

Some quotes:

1) From Oz, but quoting Torsten, on degradeability of glyphosate
protection genes:

================================================== =====
From: Oz )


Subject: Genetically engineered food
Newsgroups: alt.agriculture.misc, alt.sustainable.agriculture,
sci.agriculture


View this article only
Date: 1997/10/09

In article , Torsten Brinch -
c.dk writes
Nice flower you have there Oz. Natural?
Sorry to disturb, while you are making these important points.

A news item, that ticked in. Really nothing, just Madness.

Really good stuff. It shows that (despite apprearances ho, ho) Torsten
is still a logical scientist (at least on occasiona.) :-)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY

40 CFR Part 180

[OPP-300552; FRL-5745-2]
RIN 2070-AB78

NB Snips all over the place.

Both variants of the GOX protein (GOX and GOXv247) are rapidly
degraded in simulated gastric fluid (GF) and simulated intestinal fluid
(IF). After a fifteen-second incubation in GF, both variants have less
than 90% of their initial protein epitopes by western blot analysis.
Enzyme activity loss is also greater than 90% in both GOX variants when
assayed after a 1-minute incubation in GF. Similar results are seen in
simulated IF. Western blot assays show that both variants are greater
than 90% degraded by 30-second incubation in IF. However, the enzyme
activity assays show that the GOX activity lasts longer in IF than
variant GOXv247. After a 10-minute IF incubation, the activity
decreased to about 48% of initial for GOX whereas GOXv247 was already
greater than 90% inactive.
Two findings, found in the in vitro digestibility studies, that are
remarkable a GOXv247 displays a more rapid degradation in the IF
compared to unaltered GOX, apparently due to the single amino acid
substitutions; and antibody recognition is lost prior to a significant
loss of enzyme activity indicating that western blots may not always
accurately track functional protein degradation.

OK, so it's very quickly and readily digested. I am hardly amazed.

The acute oral toxicity test of bacterially-derived GOX and GOXv247
proteins showed no test substance related deaths at doses of 91.3
milligrams per kilogram (mg/kg) and 104 greek-mg/kg respectively.
Expression data on the GOX protein expressed in corn grains ranges from
undetectable levels to a high of 11.70 micro grams per gram (mg/g)
freshweight. This indicates that it would require 8,547 kg corn grain
per kg bodyweight to receive the 100 mg/kg dose that was administered
to the mice.

OK, it's highly non-toxic as well as rapidly degraded. Hey, what more do
you want? Heck the estrogens in the soya are probably thousands (maybe
more) of times more hazardous.

Seems like Oz & Tracy were pretty well spot on except we didn't assume
quite such a spectacularly safe product.

Thanks Torsten, you are a gentleman. This has progressed the knowledge
in the group.
============================================




--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

Victor Meldrew writes

What news on soya milk would that be?

Warnings from the UK Food Agency.

But just for fun here's totsten's bit on soya toxicology.

==============================
From: Torsten Brinch )
Search Result 7

Subject: The fake persuaders - Corporations are inventing people to
rubbish their opponents on the internet
Newsgroups: sci.agriculture
View: Complete Thread (58 articles)
Original Format
Date: 2002-05-28 15:34:58 PST

On Tue, 28 May 2002 18:57:20 +0200, Torsten Brinch
wrote:

On Tue, 28 May 2002 09:40:59 -0400, "Tracy Aquilla"
wrote:

Where is the proof that soya is safe?


Fit for Human Consumption? The Chinese did not eat the soybean as they
did other pulses (legumes) such as the lentil, because the soybean
contains large quantities of a number of harmful a substances. First
among them are potent enzyme inhibitors which block the action of
trypsin and other enzymes needed for protein digestion.

These"antinutrients" are not completely deactivated during ordinary
cooking and can produce serious gastric distress, reduced protein
digestion and chronic deficiencies in amino acid uptake. In test
animals, diets high in trypsin inhibitors cause enlargement and
pathological conditions of the pancreas, including cancer. The soybean
also contains hemagglutinin, a clot promoting substance that causes
red blood cells to clump together. Trypsin inhibitors and
hemagglutinin have been rightly labeled growth depressant substances.
Fortunately they are deactivated during the process of fermentation.
However, in precipitated products, enzyme inhibitors concentrate in
the soaking liquid rather than in the curd. Thus in tofu and bean
curd, these enzyme inhibitors are reduced in quantity, but not
completely eliminated.

Soybeans are also high in phytic acid or phytates. This is an organic
acid, present in the bran or hulls of all seeds, which blocks the
uptake of essential minerals-calcium, magnesium, iron and especially
zinc-in the intestinal tract. Although not a household word, phytates
have been extensively studied. Scientists are in general agreement
that grain and legume based diets high in phytates contribute to
widespread mineral deficiencies in third world countries.

Analysis shows that calcium, magnesium, iron and zinc are present in
the plant foods eaten in these areas, but the high phytate content of
soy and rice based diets prevents their absorption. The soybean has a
higher phytate content than any other grain or legume that has been
studied. Furthermore, it seems to be highly resistant to many phytate
reducing techniques such as long, slow cooking. Only a long period of
fermentation will significantly reduce the phytate content of
soybeans. Thus fermented products such as tempeh and miso provide
nourishment that is easily assimilated, but the nutritional value of
tofu and bean curd, both high in phytates, is questionable.

When precipitated soy products are consumed with meat, the mineral
blocking effects of the phytates are reduced. The Japanese
traditionally eat tofu as part of a mineral-rich fish broth.
Vegetarians who consume tofu and bean curd as a substitute for meat
and dairy products risk severe mineral deficiencies. The results of
calcium, magnesium and iron deficiency are well known, those of zinc
are less so. Zinc is called the intelligence mineral because it is
needed for optimal development and functioning of the brain and
nervous system. It plays a role in protein synthesis and collagen
formation, it Is involved in the blood sugar control mechanism and
thus protects against diabetes; it is needed for a healthy
reproductive system.

Zinc is a key component in numerous vital enzymes and plays a role in
the immune system. Phytates found in soy products interfere with zinc
absorption more completely than with other minerals. Literature
extolling soy products tends to minimize the role of zinc in human
physiology, and to gloss over the deleterious effect of diets high in
phytic acid.

Milk drinking is given as the reason second generation Japanese in
America grow taller than their native ancestors. Some investigators
postulate that the reduced phytate content of the American
diet-whatever maybe its other deficiencies-is the true explanation,
pointing out that Asian and Oriental children who do not get enough
meat and fish products to counteract the effects of a high phytate
diet, frequently suffer rickets, stunting and other growth problems.

Marketing the Soybean The truth is, however, that most Americans are
unlikely to adopt traditional soy products as their principle food.
Tofu, bean curd and tempeh have disagreeable texture and are too bland
for the Western palate; pungent and tasty miso and natto lose out in
taste; only soy sauce enjoys widespread popularity as a condiment. The
soy industry has therefore looked for other ways to market the
superabundance of soybeans now grown in the United States.

Large scale cultivation of the soybean in the United States began only
after the Second World War, and quickly rose to 140 billion pounds per
year. Most of the crop is made into animal feed, soy oil for
hydrogenated fats margarine and shortening. During the past 20 years,
the industry has concentrated on finding markets for the byproducts of
soy oil manufacture, including soy "lecithin", made from the oil
sludge, and soy protein products, made from defatted soy flakes, a
challenge that has involved overcoming consumer resistance to soy
products, generally considered tasteless "poverty foods.

The quickest way to gain product acceptability in the less affluent
society," said a soy industry spokesman, " ... is to have the product
consumed on its own merit in a more affluent society."" Hence the
proliferation of soy products resembling traditional American
foods-soy milk for cows milk, soy baby formula, soy yogurt, soy ice
cream, soy cheese, soy flour for baking and textured soy protein as
meat substitutes, usually promoted as high protein, low-fat, no
cholesterol "health foods" to the upscale consumer increasingly
concerned about his health. The growth of vegetarianism among the more
affluent classes has greatly accelerated the acceptability and use of
these artificial products. Unfortunately they pose numerous dangers.

Processing Denatures and Dangers Remain The production of soy milk is
relatively simple. In order to remove as much of the trypsin inhibitor
content as possible, the beans are first soaked in an alkaline
solution. The pureed solution is then heated to about 115 degrees
Centigrade in a pressure cooker. This method destroys most (but not
all) of the anti-nutrients but has the unhappy side effect of so
denaturing the proteins that they become very difficult to digest and
much reduced in effectiveness. The phytate content remains in soy milk
to block the uptake of essential minerals. In addition, the alkaline
soaking solution produces a carcinogen, lysinealine, and reduces the
cystine content, which is already low in the soybean. Lacking cystine,
the entire protein complex of the soybean becomes useless unless the
diet is fortified with cystine-rich meat, eggs, or dairy products.

Most soy products that imitate traditional American food items,
including baby formulas and some brands of soy milk, are made with soy
protein isolate, that is the soy protein isolated from the
carbohydrate and fatty acid components that naturally occur in the
bean. Soy beans are first ground and subjected to high-temperature and
solvent extraction processes to remove the oils. The resultant
defatted meal is then mixed with an alkaline solution and sugars in a
separation process to remove fiber. Then it is precipitated and
separated using an acid wash. Finally the resultant curds are
neutralized in an alkaline solution and spray dried at high
temperatures to produce high protein powder.

This is a highly refined product in which both vitamin and protein
quality are compromised-but some trypsin inhibitors remain, even after
such extreme refining. Trypsin inhibitor content of soy protein
isolate can vary as much as 5-fold. In rats, even low level trypsin
inhibitor soy protein isolate feeding results in reduced weight gain
compared to controls. Soy product producers are not required to state
trypsin inhibitor content on labels, nor even to meet minimum
standards, and the public, trained to avoid dietary cholesterol, a
substance vital for normal growth and metabolism, has never heard of
the potent anti-nutrients found in cholesterol-free soy products.

Soy Formula Is Not the Answer Soy protein isolate is the main
ingredient of soy-based infant formulas. Along with trypsin
inhibitors, these formulas have a high phytate content. Use of soy
formula has caused zinc deficiency in infants. Aluminum content of soy
formula is 10 times greater than milk based formula, and 100 times
greater than unprocessed milk. Aluminum has a toxic effect on the
kidneys of infants, and has been implicated as cause in Alzheimer's in
adults.

Soy milk formulas are often given to babies with milk allergy; but
allergies to soy are almost as common as those to milk. Soy formulas
lack cholesterol which is absolutely essential for the development of
the brain and nervous system; they also lack lactose and galactose,
which play an equally important role in the development of the nervous
system. I would strongly discourage the use of soy formulas.

Nitrosamines, which are potent carcinogens, are often found in soy
protein foods, and are greatly increased during the high temperature
drying process. Not surprisingly, animal feeding studies show a lower
weight gain for rats on soy formula than those on whole milk,
high-lactose formula; similar results have been observed in children
on macrobiotic diets which include the use of soy milk and large
amounts of whole grains. Children brought up on high-phytate diets
tend to be thin and scrawny.

Fabricated Soy Foods A final indignity to the original soy bean is
high-temperature, high-pressure extrusion processing of soy protein
isolate to product textured vegetable protein (TVP). Numerous
artificial flavorings, particularly MSG, are added to TVP products to
mask their strong "beany" taste, and impart the flavor of meat. Soy
protein isolate and textured vegetable protein are used extensively in
school lunch programs, commercial baked goods, diet beverages and fast
food products. They are heavily promoted in third world countries and
form the basis of many food give-away programs. These soy products
greatly inhibit zinc and iron absorption; in test animals they cause
enlarged organs, particularly the pancreas and thyroid gland, and
increased deposition of fatty acids in the liver.

Human feeding tests to determine the cholesterol lowering properties
of soy protein isolate have not shown them to be effective.
Nevertheless, they are often promoted as having beneficial effects on
cholesterol levels.

Cancer Preventing or Cancer Causing? The food industry also touts soy
products for their cancer preventing properties. Isoflavone aglycones
are anticarcinogenic substances found in traditionally fermented
soybean products. However, in non-fermented soy products such as tofu
and soy milk, these isoflavones are present in an altered form as
beta-glycoside conjugates, which have no anti-carcinogenic effect.
Some researchers believe the rapid increase in liver and pancreatic
cancer in Africa is due to the introduction of soy products there.

The fatty acid profile of the soybean includes large amounts of
beneficial omega-3 fatty acids compared to other pulses legumes); but
these omega-3 fatty acids are particularly susceptible to rancidity
when subjected to high pressures and temperatures. This is exactly
what is required to remove oil from the bean, as soybean oil is
particularly difficult to extract. hexane or other solvents are always
used to extract oil from soybeans, and traces remain in the commercial
product.

While fermented soy products contain protein, vitamins,
anti-carcinogenic substances and important fatty acids, they can under
no circumstances be called nutritionally complete. Like all pulses,
the soybean lacks vital sulfur-containing amino acids cystine and
methionine. These are usually supplied by rice and other grains in
areas where the soybean is traditionally consumed. Soy should never be
considered as a substitute for animal products like meat or milk.
Claims that fermented soy products like tempeh can be relied on as a
source of vitamin B12, necessary for healthy blood and nervous system,
have not been supported by scientific research.,' Finally, soybeans do
not supply all-important fat soluble vitamins D and preformed A
(retinol) which act as catalysts for the proper absorption and
utilization of all minerals and water soluble vitamins in the diet.

These "fat soluble activators" are found only in certain animal foods
such as organ meats, butter, eggs, fish and shellfish. Carotenes from
plant foods and exposure to sunlight are not sufficient to supply the
body's requirements for vitamins A and D. Soy products often replace
animal products in third world countries where intake of B12 and fat
soluble A and D are already low. Soy products actually increase
requirements for vitamins B12 and D.

Are soy products easy to digest, as claimed? Fermented soy products
probably are; but unfermented products with their cargo of phytates,
enzyme inhibitors, rancid fatty acids and altered proteins most
certainly are not. Pet food manufacturers promote soy free dog and cat
food as "highly digestible"

Only Fermented Soy Products Are Safe To summarize, traditional
fermented soy products such as miso, natto and tempeh, which are
usually made with organically grown soybeans, have a long history of
use that is generally beneficial when combined with other elements of
the Oriental diet including rice, sea foods, fish broth, organ meats
and fermented vegetables. The value of precipitated soybean products
is problematical, especially when they form the major source of
protein in the diet. Modern soy products including soy milks and
artificial meat and dairy products made from soy protein isolate and
textured vegetable protein are new to the diet and pose a number of
serious problems.

The above information was abstracted from an article written by Sally
Fallon and Mary Enig, Ph.D. (an international expert renown in the
field of lipid chemistry) for Health Freedom News in September of
1995.

==============================================


--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

"Oz" wrote in message
...
Victor Meldrew writes

What news on soya milk would that be?

Warnings from the UK Food Agency.

also on Radio four on Saturday morning they had the farming programme
looking at gm soya in Argentina.
The Argentinians give free soya to the poor and the BBC produced this long
list of dangers from eating soya, especially for the young, the male,
females of breeding age and damned near everyone else as well.
I am afraid it amused me no end, I await the repost of the vegetarian
pro-soya tendancy

Jim Webster

In uk.rec.gardening Oz wrote:

: Fortunately:

: 1) It reduces by biological action quite quickly over time.
: 2) Few will move to new growth (ie, stays on the leaf it fell on) and so
: goes when the leaf senesces.
: 3) There are strict timings for spray to harvest intervals.
: 4) Pesticides these days are stunningly non-toxic to humans. This is
: very good for those who apply them.

``Study says pesticides may be linked to cancer

A federal study says North Carolina farmers and their wives are more
likely to get prostate cancer than nonfarming couples.''

- http://www.wect.com/Global/story.asp...5&nav=2gQcFfJ3

http://www.ewg.org/pub/home/Reports/.../shoppers.html
....gives some details relating to the risks - ranking produce
according to their freedom from known human carcinogens,
nervous system poisons, and endocrine system disrupters.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/

In uk.rec.gardening Oz wrote:

: There have been many studies to show that when plants are attacked by
: pests, levels of toxins rise significantly.

: Even better if one is attacked, it notifies others by emitting
: signalling vapours resulting in unattacked plants jacking their toxin
: level up even though they are not being attacked (yet).

: The diversion of energy into toxins slows plant growth and it is
: believed (like strongly) that this is one reason why fungicide treated
: plants yield more than untreated even in the absence of disease.

: Given that many toxins taste bad (bitter and so on) this may be one
: reason why 'typical' organic veg are reputed taste stronger than non-
: organic. For example mustard oil (a horribly carcinogenic and toxic
: brassica toxin) does taste like very strong mustard.

The brassica toxins normally protect against cancer. They are the reason
broccoli and watercress protect against cancer.

Mustard oil - and especially heated mustard oil - in excess can cause
cancer - e.g.:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

....but smaller doses are protective - e.g.:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

....and the overall effect of brassica toxins on cancer is overwhelmingly
negative.

The problem with the toxins in mustard and its relatives are usually
gastro-intestinal irritation, thyroid problems and possibly anaemia -
rather than cancer.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/

Tim Tyler writes

``Study says pesticides may be linked to cancer

A federal study says North Carolina farmers and their wives are more
likely to get prostate cancer than nonfarming couples.''

Wives with prostate cancer, eh?

Like, really believable.

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

Tim Tyler writes

The brassica toxins normally protect against cancer. They are the reason
broccoli and watercress protect against cancer.

Mustard oil - and especially heated mustard oil - in excess can cause
cancer - e.g.:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...ed&list_uids=1
2693827&dopt=Abstract

...but smaller doses are protective - e.g.:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...ed&list_uids=1
0025884&dopt=Abstract

...and the overall effect of brassica toxins on cancer is overwhelmingly
negative.

The problem with the toxins in mustard and its relatives are usually
gastro-intestinal irritation, thyroid problems and possibly anaemia -
rather than cancer.

Exactly, nasty compounds.

They would be discarded at first screening as pesticides.
Carcinogenic.
Far too toxic.

Although at the correct rate undoubtedly an active insecticide (and
probably mammalicide, too).

--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
Note: soon (maybe already) only posts via despammed.com will be accepted.

"Tim Tyler" wrote in message
...
In uk.rec.gardening Oz wrote:

: Fortunately:

: 1) It reduces by biological action quite quickly over
time.
: 2) Few will move to new growth (ie, stays on the leaf it
fell on) and so
: goes when the leaf senesces.
: 3) There are strict timings for spray to harvest
intervals.
: 4) Pesticides these days are stunningly non-toxic to
humans. This is
: very good for those who apply them.

``Study says pesticides may be linked to cancer

A federal study says North Carolina farmers and their
wives are more
likely to get prostate cancer than nonfarming couples.''

-
http://www.wect.com/Global/story.asp...5&nav=2gQcFfJ3

That page specifically references methyl bromide. This
thread is about glyphosate.

--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

Xref: kermit uk.rec.gardening:143868

The message
from Tim Tyler contains these words:

A federal study says North Carolina farmers and their wives are more
likely to get prostate cancer than nonfarming couples.''

Women in USA get prostate cancer? I blame GM foods.

Janet