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Malcolm 15-05-2003 11:09 AM

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 
Much as CONservation hooligans RSPB, Woodland Trust etc try to hide
it, the usage of tonnes of a highly toxic weedkiller has detrimental
effects on their reserves.

Gardeners think your OK with Roundup, a little here, a little there? I
don't think so.

The fact is there is no substitute for hard work, you keep spraying
this junk and you'll end up killing everything including US!!

You may only use a bottle now and again, times that by the millions of
bottles sold annually, and we have big problems. The farmers use
millions of tonnes per annum to grow their crops, and we end up eating
the crops! go figure.

Think before you fall for the hype.


http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...glyphosate.htm

Glyphosate
Toxicity

Glyphosate can be acutely toxic to non-target plants, including
aquatic plants and algae. The effects of this toxicity on natural
plant succession alters the ecology of treated areas. In most cases,
the plant species diversity will decrease, and along with it, the
numbers of insects, mammals and birds utilizing these areas as
habitat.

Santillo, D.J. et al (1989), "Response of songbirds to
glyphosate-induced habitat changes on clear-cut." Journal of Wildlife
Management, v. 53 no. 1, 64-71.

Connor, J.F. and McMillan, L.M. (1990), "Winter utilization by moose
of glyphosate-treated cutovers." Alces 26:91-103.

Glyphosate is toxic to mammals:

Most toxicity tests cited by industry and the EPA investigate toxicity
through oral exposure routes. The toxicity of glyphosate and the
common surfactant POEA is much greater through inhalation routes of
exposure, which is a likely exposure scenario for humans residing in
areas of Colombia. Experimentally induced inhalation of Roundup by
rats produced 100% mortality in 24 hours. Humans ingesting as little
as 100 ml of Roundup have died ( suicide attempts using Roundup have a
10-20% success rate.)

Martinez, T.T. and Brown, K. (1991) "Oral and pulmonary toxicology of
the surfactant used in Roundup herbicide." Proceedings of the Western
Pharmacology Society, v. 34, 43-46.

Adam, A., et al (1997) "The oral and intratracheal toxicities of
Roundup and its components on rats." Veterinary and Human Toxicology,
Jun 39(3):147-51.

Glyphosate produces toxic effects on mammalian sperm. Glyphosate is a
potential endocrine disruptor.

Youssef, M.I., et al (1995), "Toxic effects of carbofuran and
glyphosate on semen characteristics in rabbits." Journal of
Environmental Science and Health, part B, v. 30, 515-534.

Walsh, LP, et al (2000) "Roundup inhibits steroidogenesis by
disrupting steroidogenic acute regulatory (stAR) protein expression."
Environmental Health Perspectives, AUG v108(N8):769-776.

Toxic to aquatic organisms including fish and invertebrates:

Studies with fish show that glyphosate can be moderately toxic alone,
but when combined with the surfactant normally found in commercial
products, the toxicity is greater. Toxicity increases with higher
temperatures in fish; one study found that the toxicity of glyphosate
doubled in bluegill and in rainbow trout test subjects when the
temperature of the water was increased from 45 to 63 degrees F.

Folmar, L.C. et al (1979) "Toxicity of the herbicide glyphosate and
several of its formulations to fish and aquatic invertebrates."
Archives of Environmental Contamination and Toxicology, v 8, 269-278.

Significant stream drift of midge larva occurred when Roundup was
added to test water at 2 mg/L.

Glyphosate can act as a phosphorous source and could stimulate
undesirable eutrophication of waterways.

Austin, A.P., et al (1991), "Impact of an organophosphate herbicide
(glyphosate) on periphyton communities developed in experimental
streams." Bulletin of Environmental Contamination and Toxicology, v.
47, 29-35.

Toxic to soil microbes including nitrogen-fixing bacteria,
mycorrhizae, actinomycete, and yeast isolates:

One study found that glyphosate inhibited the growth of 59% of
selected naturally occurring soil microbes.

Carlisle, S.M. and Trevors, J.T. (1988), "Glyphosate in the
environment." Water, Air, and Soil Pollution 39:409-420.

Glyphosate, by inhibiting the growth of some microbes allows the
overgrowth of others. This includes microbial plant pathogens.
Fusarium is a naturally occurring soil fungus that is a plant
pathogen. Fusarium invades the roots of plants and either kills the
plant outright or prevents normal growth. Subsistence farmers in
Colombia have noted that fields accidently sprayed with herbicides in
attempts to destroy Coca do not produce at the same level as they did
prior to being sprayed, and in some cases, no crops grow at all.



Levesque, C.A. (1987), "Effects of glyphosate on Fusarium spp.: its
influence on root colonization of weeds, propagule density in the
soil, and crop emergence." Can. J Microbiol. Vol 33, pp354-360.

Sanogo, S., et al,(2000) "Effects of herbicides on Fusarium solani f.
sp glycines and development of sudden death syndrome in
glyphosate-tolerant soybean." Phytopathology, v. 90 (N1): 57-66.

Mycorrhizae are soil fungus that function to increase nutrient uptake
by plants through a symbiotic association with the roots. Mycorrhizae
have been implicated in the improved resistance to stress, and are
necessary for the proper growth and development of most vascular
plants. Studies have shown that glyphosate inhibits the growth of
mycorrhizae. Killing of beneficial mycorrhizae can result in
overgrowth of toxic or pathogenic fungus, such as Fusarium.

Estok, D. et al (1989) , "Effects of the herbicides 2,4-D, glyphosate,
hexazinone, and trichopyr on the growth of three species of
ectomycorrhizal fungi." Bulletin of Environmental Contamination and
Toxicology v 42, pp 835-839.

Levesque, C.A. and Rahe, J.E. (1992), "Herbicidal interactions with
fungal root pathogens, with special reference to glyphosate." Annual
Review of Phytopathology v.30, 572-602.

Glyphosate destroys nitrogen-fixing bacteria. Plants are dependent on
the availability of inorganic nitrogen in the soil. In order to be
utilized by plants, nitrogen must be fixed by the addition of oxygen.
Nitrification, the oxidative conversion of ammonium ions to nitrate,
produces the principle form of nitrogen assimilated by higher plants,
and is under control of relatively few species of bacteria.

Hendricks, C.W. (1992), "Effects of glyphosate and nitapyrin on
selected bacterial populations in continuous-flow culture." Bulletin
of Environmental Contamination and Toxicology v. 49, 417-424.

Glyphosate bound to soil particles may still be toxic and bioavailable
to filter feeders, such as crustaceans and molluscs, and potentially
other organisms that ingest significant quantities of soil during
normal feeding, including bottom-feeding fish, shorebirds, amphibians,
and some mammals.

Welten, R., et al. (2000), "Ecotoxicity of contaminated suspended
solids for filter feeders (Daphnia magna)." Archives of Env. Contam.
And Tox. 39 (3): 315-323.

Glyphosate - Notes on Environmental Fate and Application

Glyphosate’s toxicity is compounded by its persistence in the
environment. Many studies show that glyphosate remains, chemically
unchanged in the environment, for periods of up to a year. Recent
research suggests that even when glyphosate binds to soil particles,
it will cyclically "desorb" or lose its attraction to soil and become
active as an herbicide.

Persistence and degradation

Soil:

"Field half-lives range from 1-174 days, moderately persistent with
estimated average half-life of 47 days"

Wauchope, RD, et al. Pesticide Property Database for Environmental
Decision Making. Rev. Environ. Contam. Toxicology, 1992.

Weed Science Soc. Of America. Herbicide Handbook 7th Edition. 1994. Pp
10-58.

"Persisted in soils in Oregon Coast Range with half-life of 55 days"

Newton, M, et al. 1984 Fate of glyphosate in an Oregon forest
ecosystem. J. Food Agric. Chem. 32:1144-1155.

"Persisted for 360 days in three Canadian boreal forest site"

Roy, DN, et al. 1989. Persistence, movement, and degradation of
glyphosate in selected Canadian boreal forest soils. J. Agric. Food
Chem. 37:437-440.

Water:

"Half-life in pond water is 10-12 weeks"

USDA Pesticide Background Statements. Vol I: Herbicides. Wash DC, 1987
pp 6-10.

US EPA Pesticide Tolerance for glyphosate. Fed. Reg. 57:873940. 1992
pp 10-98.

"Half-life of glyphosate (Accord) in forest pond sediments was 400
days"

World Health Organization, UNEP, 1994. Glyphosate. Environmental
health criterion #159. Geneve, Switzerland.

"The rate of glyphosate degradation in soil correlates with the
respiration rate, an estimate of microbial activity. Glyphosate has
been found to inhibit growth (at 50ppm) of 59% of randomly selected
soil bacteria, fungal, actinomycete, and yeast isolates; of nine
herbicides tested, glyphosate was the second most toxic." This infers
that with extensive glyphosate use, soil microbes are killed which
degrade glyphosate, thus slowing degradation and increasing
persistence. Glyphosate is much more persistent in anaerobic soils
than aerobic.

Carlisle, SM and Trevors, JT. Glyphosate in the environment. 1988.
Water, Air, and Soil Pollution. 39:409-412.

In water, glyphosate seems to bind tightly to soil particles,
supposedly reducing the freely circulating glyphosate in water. One
study shows that the desorption rate of glyphosate, the rate at which
it unbinds from soil particles, can be high. Thus, the persistence of
glyphosate bound to soil in the environment maintains its toxicity, to
some degree. This study found that, "80% of applied glyphosate
desorbed from soil particles in a two-hour period."

Piccolo, A. et al. 1994. Adsorption and desorption of glyphosate in
some European soils. J Environ. Sci. Health B29 (6) : 1105-1115.

Restrictions on aerial application in the U.S.

Label on most glyphosate products read:

"Do not apply to water, to areas where surface water is present or to
intertidal areas below the high water mark. Do not contaminate water
when disposing of equipment washwaters and rinsate."

"Do not aerially apply higher than ten feet above the top of the
highest vegetation treated."


--








So, you dont like reasoned,
well thought out, civil debate?

I understand.

/´¯/)
/¯../
/..../
/´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
/'/.../..../......./¨¯\
('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
\.................'...../
''...\.......... _.·´
\..............(
\.............\..

Malcolm 15-05-2003 05:08 PM

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 
On Thu, 15 May 2003 14:56:43 GMT, "Michelle Fulton"
wrote:


"Malcolm" wrote in message
news:8025373d81fb5abcf06b43737727c8c1@TeraNews. ..

How does drowning in water relate to "Experimentally induced
inhalation of Roundup by rats produced 100% mortality in 24 hours." Or
do you just naturally take a contrary view, regardless how stupid?


Are you talking about inhaling the fumes or mist,


Fumes and mist. Loz was implying you would need to inhale so much you
would drown in it!

Clearly nonsense.

rather than partial
drowning in the liquid itself. It's hard to imagine someone accidentally
inhaling Roundup as a liquid?


Quite.

I've accidentally inhaled the mist, when
spraying weeds in my yard and it doesn't seem to have any effect.


Well if you are prepared to put yourself on the line, because it
"seems" OK, your choice. Let us know how you get on 10 years down the
line, with all these things that "appear" to be OK.

That's the trouble, many people are short sighted, they are unable to
connect what they do now, with what happens in the future to them.
Smoking a typical example.

Unlike
when I spray insecticide, which I do only once a year, or every other year
if the insects aren't too many. I have to shower immediately afterwards and
learned not to walk barefoot in the yard while doing it, as it made me feel
sick just in the time it took to spray my little yard.


And yet you are prepared to spray that on stuff you eat? seems daft to
me. This is what has been happening in farming though, we have been
sprayed from pillar to post with this junk, and everything is
suffering, especially us.


--








So, you dont like reasoned,
well thought out, civil debate?

I understand.

/´¯/)
/¯../
/..../
/´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
/'/.../..../......./¨¯\
('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
\.................'...../
''...\.......... _.·´
\..............(
\.............\..

Michelle Fulton 15-05-2003 05:32 PM

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

"Malcolm" wrote in message
news:bb8e9e644fe3d7daef876aa750530b09@TeraNews...

And yet you are prepared to spray that on stuff you eat? seems daft to
me. This is what has been happening in farming though, we have been
sprayed from pillar to post with this junk, and everything is
suffering, especially us.


I'm sure there are some effects, but mostly on the people who spray the
stuff. I don't grow food. Well, I just planted an herb garden, but will
make sure it isn't sprayed, while I still will spray the yard. A farmer
doesn't have the same option, though. They can't just spray around the
plants and losses due to insects could be devastating to a farm, but I won't
lose my income if bugs eat my basil...

I also wash all of my produce before consumption. I wonder......
Does anyone know of tests that have been done on the amounts of systemic
absorption of insecticides by food plants. In other words, what does the
plant absorb that can't be washed away?

M



Malcolm 15-05-2003 05:44 PM

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 
On Thu, 15 May 2003 15:26:57 GMT, "Michelle Fulton"
wrote:


"Malcolm" wrote in message
news:bb8e9e644fe3d7daef876aa750530b09@TeraNews. ..

And yet you are prepared to spray that on stuff you eat? seems daft to
me. This is what has been happening in farming though, we have been
sprayed from pillar to post with this junk, and everything is
suffering, especially us.


I'm sure there are some effects,


It's a fact, there are many known and unknown effects.

but mostly on the people who spray the
stuff.


That's naive in the least. So you think the sprayer should be masked
and protected up to the hilt when spraying it, yet cannot see the
effect of those toxins once it has been sprayed, some of which stay
around for a year or more?

I don't grow food.


But the fact is people do, and this crap is used on it.

Well, I just planted an herb garden, but will
make sure it isn't sprayed, while I still will spray the yard. A farmer
doesn't have the same option, though. They can't just spray around the
plants and losses due to insects could be devastating to a farm, but I won't
lose my income if bugs eat my basil...


Principal is the same. If an organic farm can get away without
glyphosate, why cant everyone else? I find it amazing you know full
well the consequence of spraying your food, and don't, yet you think
it's OK for old farmer giles to spray it on the nations food?

I also wash all of my produce before consumption.


So you should, I would recommend a good soaking prior to washing.
Washing is not just run it under the tap for a few seconds.

I wonder......
Does anyone know of tests that have been done on the amounts of systemic
absorption of insecticides by food plants. In other words, what does the
plant absorb that can't be washed away?


There have been many studies, hence we have the current scares over
carrots, lettuce toxicity etc.

The rise in allergies etc is more than likely a direct result of all
the crap we are eating. Who, 50 years ago heard of nut allergies?


--








So, you dont like reasoned,
well thought out, civil debate?

I understand.

/´¯/)
/¯../
/..../
/´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
/'/.../..../......./¨¯\
('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
\.................'...../
''...\.......... _.·´
\..............(
\.............\..

Michelle Fulton 15-05-2003 06:20 PM

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

"Malcolm" wrote in message
news:f3cdf9dde3cec80908c88c978bc18fd8@TeraNews...

That's naive in the least. So you think the sprayer should be masked
and protected up to the hilt when spraying it, yet cannot see the
effect of those toxins once it has been sprayed, some of which stay
around for a year or more?


Probably a bit of naivety involved, but I think there is more danger
inhaling the stuff, and I'm not really sure how much of it ends up on my
dinner plate, what with rain, factory washing, me washing and the plant
enzymes destroying it.....

Principal is the same. If an organic farm can get away without
glyphosate, why cant everyone else? I find it amazing you know full
well the consequence of spraying your food, and don't, yet you think
it's OK for old farmer giles to spray it on the nations food?


But the organic farmers *have* to charge more for their produce because it
costs them more to generate it and they suffer more loss due to insects and
such. If the majority of the public were ready to pay more for their food,
the supermarkets would stock a majority of organics. The ratios are
probably a bit different in the UK, because the public seems to be more
environmentally conscious than in the US, but our supermarkets set aside
maybe 2 percent of their space for organics, if they have any at all. Lots
of stores don't even carry organics because, when the public sees
conventional potatoes at 0.49 per pound, right next to organic 1.49 per
pound, they are most often going to pick the conventional because of the
price.


So you should, I would recommend a good soaking prior to washing.
Washing is not just run it under the tap for a few seconds.


Hmmm, I didn't think of that. Do bad things leach out in a cold water soak?

There have been many studies, hence we have the current scares over
carrots, lettuce toxicity etc.


Hadn't heard about it. Do you, by chance, know where I can find objective
info on the subject?

The rise in allergies etc is more than likely a direct result of all
the crap we are eating. Who, 50 years ago heard of nut allergies?


I assume they just didn't know what was killing the people... Do they use a
different chemicals on peanuts than on every other plant? Why would people
become allergic to peanuts and not other plants? I agree that pollution, in
general, may aggravate allergies, but I believe the increase in allergies
has more to do with the sterilization of our life styles and the over use of
anti-biotics. Our immune systems just don't have the opportunities to
develop the way they used to, ergo people get sick from things they didn't
used to....

M



Malcolm 15-05-2003 06:44 PM

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 
On Thu, 15 May 2003 16:24:05 GMT, "Michelle Fulton"
wrote:


"Malcolm" wrote in message
news:f3cdf9dde3cec80908c88c978bc18fd8@TeraNews. ..

That's naive in the least. So you think the sprayer should be masked
and protected up to the hilt when spraying it, yet cannot see the
effect of those toxins once it has been sprayed, some of which stay
around for a year or more?


Probably a bit of naivety involved, but I think there is more danger
inhaling the stuff, and I'm not really sure how much of it ends up on my
dinner plate, what with rain, factory washing, me washing and the plant
enzymes destroying it.....


That's great, you know the facts, and you base your decision on that.

This is all we ask, the chance for us all to do the same. We are being
pumped full of this junk, which big business claims is safe, don't
worry, yet many of us do have genuine concerns.

Principal is the same. If an organic farm can get away without
glyphosate, why cant everyone else? I find it amazing you know full
well the consequence of spraying your food, and don't, yet you think
it's OK for old farmer giles to spray it on the nations food?


But the organic farmers *have* to charge more for their produce because it
costs them more to generate it and they suffer more loss due to insects and
such. If the majority of the public were ready to pay more for their food,
the supermarkets would stock a majority of organics. The ratios are
probably a bit different in the UK, because the public seems to be more
environmentally conscious than in the US, but our supermarkets set aside
maybe 2 percent of their space for organics, if they have any at all. Lots
of stores don't even carry organics because, when the public sees
conventional potatoes at 0.49 per pound, right next to organic 1.49 per
pound, they are most often going to pick the conventional because of the
price.


No doubt about it. Rome wasn't built in a day, this is why we need
education about what we buy. The price difference is nowhere near that
great in my local Sainsbury, 2.5kg Maris Piper (cheapis) £1.22
organic £1.39! this is what I am saying, for me, organics really is
hardly much different from usual. OK so if you always buy the cheapest
of the cheap and really don't care about where or how it arrived, you
cannot compete, but if you were a bit more discerning about what you
buy, the difference in price is not actually that great.

So you should, I would recommend a good soaking prior to washing.
Washing is not just run it under the tap for a few seconds.


Hmmm, I didn't think of that. Do bad things leach out in a cold water soak?


I doubt it, but the crap that is on the skin will have more of a
chance to be got rid of.

There have been many studies, hence we have the current scares over
carrots, lettuce toxicity etc.


Hadn't heard about it. Do you, by chance, know where I can find objective
info on the subject?


www.google.com is brilliant for anything and everything you care to
research. I think it was the FSA who recently announced concerns about
lettuce and carrots again in the UK..

The rise in allergies etc is more than likely a direct result of all
the crap we are eating. Who, 50 years ago heard of nut allergies?


I assume they just didn't know what was killing the people... Do they use a
different chemicals on peanuts than on every other plant? Why would people
become allergic to peanuts and not other plants? I agree that pollution, in
general, may aggravate allergies, but I believe the increase in allergies
has more to do with the sterilization of our life styles and the over use of
anti-biotics.


But many of us go through life without touching anti biotic, we all
eat sprayed crops!

Our immune systems just don't have the opportunities to
develop the way they used to, ergo people get sick from things they didn't
used to....


That's OK assuming you have been through the run of anti biotic etc,
many of us haven't and still get ill, the commonest factor is
pesticides and herbicides, we cannot get away from them.


--








So, you dont like reasoned,
well thought out, civil debate?

I understand.

/´¯/)
/¯../
/..../
/´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
/'/.../..../......./¨¯\
('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
\.................'...../
''...\.......... _.·´
\..............(
\.............\..

Michelle Fulton 15-05-2003 07:08 PM

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

"Malcolm" wrote in message
news:0162a5b6292500f2d55de2ca59c76e44@TeraNews...

OK so if you always buy the cheapest
of the cheap and really don't care about where or how it arrived, you
cannot compete, but if you were a bit more discerning about what you
buy, the difference in price is not actually that great.


To the family with five kids, one unemployed parent and the other making
minimum wage, there isn't a choice. Not everyone *can* afford the
difference, no matter how much they want it.

I doubt it, but the crap that is on the skin will have more of a
chance to be got rid of.


Makes sense.

www.google.com is brilliant for anything and everything you care to
research.


Not if you don't have hours to spend sifting through the stuff to find
objective information.

I think it was the FSA who recently announced concerns about
lettuce and carrots again in the UK..


What is the FSA?

But many of us go through life without touching anti biotic, we all
eat sprayed crops!


Have you really never taken an anti-biotic? Perhaps it is different in the
UK, but US kids are raised on anti-biotics. I suspect in the societies
where anti-biotics really aren't used, they don't have the same kinds of
allergies as western societies do.

That's OK assuming you have been through the run of anti biotic etc,
many of us haven't and still get ill, the commonest factor is
pesticides and herbicides, we cannot get away from them.


Well, of course, you get ill, but do you (if you are talking about yourself)
suffer from new types of allergies that nobody in your family history ever
suffered from? How clean did your mother keep your house when you were
growing up? Did she use bleach and ammonia to clean the place, thereby
killing all those little germs your body would be developing a defense
against? I bet she even sterilized your bottles before feeding you. Did
she teach you to wash your hands before eating, killing more little bugs?
Did you bath almost daily? I don't know how old you are, but after a couple
of generations of a more sterile environment, I'm sure some lack of
resistance is then passes on in genes.

The purpose for all of this cleansing of our environment is supposed to help
prevent the spread of disease, and it does do that, in some cases, but it
also hinders the development of our immune systems.

M



Malcolm 15-05-2003 07:32 PM

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 
On Thu, 15 May 2003 17:08:49 GMT, "Michelle Fulton"
wrote:


"Malcolm" wrote in message
news:0162a5b6292500f2d55de2ca59c76e44@TeraNews. ..

OK so if you always buy the cheapest
of the cheap and really don't care about where or how it arrived, you
cannot compete, but if you were a bit more discerning about what you
buy, the difference in price is not actually that great.


To the family with five kids, one unemployed parent and the other making
minimum wage, there isn't a choice. Not everyone *can* afford the
difference, no matter how much they want it.


You cannot "afford" to not eat properly.

I doubt it, but the crap that is on the skin will have more of a
chance to be got rid of.


Makes sense.

www.google.com is brilliant for anything and everything you care to
research.


Not if you don't have hours to spend sifting through the stuff to find
objective information.


How much is your health worth, more importantly your children?

I think it was the FSA who recently announced concerns about
lettuce and carrots again in the UK..


What is the FSA?


Food Standards Agency or something.

But many of us go through life without touching anti biotic, we all
eat sprayed crops!


Have you really never taken an anti-biotic?


Never.

You should make sure doctors never prescribe them either, just to shut
you up, as many do.

"I don't know what it is, so have an antibiotic just in case"

Perhaps it is different in the
UK, but US kids are raised on anti-biotics. I suspect in the societies
where anti-biotics really aren't used, they don't have the same kinds of
allergies as western societies do.


May well have a point.

That's OK assuming you have been through the run of anti biotic etc,
many of us haven't and still get ill, the commonest factor is
pesticides and herbicides, we cannot get away from them.


Well, of course, you get ill, but do you (if you are talking about yourself)
suffer from new types of allergies that nobody in your family history ever
suffered from?


No, thankfully.

How clean did your mother keep your house when you were
growing up?


About as clean as my family do now, not obsessively by any stretch of
the imagination.

Did she use bleach and ammonia to clean the place, thereby
killing all those little germs your body would be developing a defense
against?


Ha, couldn't afford it.

I bet she even sterilized your bottles before feeding you.


Is that not common sense?

Did
she teach you to wash your hands before eating,


It's a priority today.

killing more little bugs?
Did you bath almost daily?


Nope.

I don't know how old you are, but after a couple
of generations of a more sterile environment, I'm sure some lack of
resistance is then passes on in genes.


Good point, but in reality I doubt there are many obsessively house
proud people about.

The purpose for all of this cleansing of our environment is supposed to help
prevent the spread of disease, and it does do that, in some cases, but it
also hinders the development of our immune systems.


To a certain extent that would be true, no doubt about it. With regard
to the use of highly toxic chemicals there is no doubt we should
beware. I think the vast majority of us still adopt a basic hygiene
standard, many do not.
--








So, you dont like reasoned,
well thought out, civil debate?

I understand.

/´¯/)
/¯../
/..../
/´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
/'/.../..../......./¨¯\
('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
\.................'...../
''...\.......... _.·´
\..............(
\.............\..

anton 15-05-2003 07:44 PM

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

Malcolm wrote in message 4a74b2e931751f1b12b9499abcefa76c@TeraNews...
Much as CONservation hooligans RSPB, Woodland Trust etc try to hide
it, the usage of tonnes of a highly toxic weedkiller has detrimental
effects on their reserves.

Gardeners think your OK with Roundup, a little here, a little there? I
don't think so.

The fact is there is no substitute for hard work,


Really? Why are you using a technology that involves
hundreds or thousands of chemicals thne instead of a quill
pen, hypocrite?

you keep spraying
this junk and you'll end up killing everything including US!!



Have you ever used a car or a plane? Do you ever buy
anything that comes by a powered vehicle? But there's no
substitute for hard work, is there? - so walk.

You may only use a bottle now and again, times that by the millions of
bottles sold annually, and we have big problems.


Do you use toothpaste? soap? non-homemade shoes?
There's no substitute for hard work- grow you own shoes.

The farmers use
millions of tonnes per annum to grow their crops, and we end up eating
the crops! go figure.



And the people use millions of tons of paint, instead of lime-wash. We live
in rooms that are painted! Go figure.

Think before you fall for the hype.


http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...glyphosate.htm

Glyphosate
Toxicity

Glyphosate can be acutely toxic to non-target plants, including
aquatic plants and algae.


Well, go to the foot of our stairs. You get a lot of aquatic plants
on my drive.

The effects of this toxicity on natural
plant succession alters the ecology of treated areas.


Yeah. So do the scores of trees I've planted 'alter the ecology
of [planted] areas'.

In most cases,
the plant species diversity will decrease, and along with it, the
numbers of insects, mammals and birds utilizing these areas as
habitat.


Nope.


Santillo, D.J. et al (1989), "Response of songbirds to
glyphosate-induced habitat changes on clear-cut." Journal of Wildlife
Management, v. 53 no. 1, 64-71.



Have you read anything entitled "response of people to
not living nasty brutish short disease-ridden povetry-struck
lives without chemicals" ? I thought not.

Connor, J.F. and McMillan, L.M. (1990), "Winter utilization by moose
of glyphosate-treated cutovers." Alces 26:91-103.



Well, I haven't noticed any difference to the moose round here
since I started using Roundup. I haven't noticed any moose
round here at all, ot be honest.

Glyphosate is toxic to mammals:



With an LD50 of 4000mg/kg? Don't make me laugh. What's
the LD50 of table salt, by the way?


Most toxicity tests cited by industry and the EPA investigate toxicity
through oral exposure routes. The toxicity of glyphosate and the
common surfactant POEA is much greater through inhalation routes of
exposure, which is a likely exposure scenario for humans residing in
areas of Colombia.


OK- I'll stay clear of Columbia.

Experimentally induced inhalation of Roundup by
rats produced 100% mortality in 24 hours.


How kind. Normal testing only kills 50%.

Humans ingesting as little
as 100 ml of Roundup have died ( suicide attempts using Roundup have a
10-20% success rate.)



Tried drinking 100ml of bleach? 100 tablets of paracetamol?
It's a nasty rough world out there.

Martinez, T.T. and Brown, K. (1991) "Oral and pulmonary toxicology of
the surfactant used in Roundup herbicide." Proceedings of the Western
Pharmacology Society, v. 34, 43-46.

Adam, A., et al (1997) "The oral and intratracheal toxicities of
Roundup and its components on rats." Veterinary and Human Toxicology,
Jun 39(3):147-51.

Glyphosate produces toxic effects on mammalian sperm.


but you don't mention any quantities.

Glyphosate is a
potential endocrine disruptor.



potential? Care to make a list of common chemicals that
appear in households that are potential endocrine disruptors?
have you got a clear view on whetehr your rubber duck is or isn't?

Youssef, M.I., et al (1995), "Toxic effects of carbofuran and
glyphosate on semen characteristics in rabbits." Journal of
Environmental Science and Health, part B, v. 30, 515-534.

Walsh, LP, et al (2000) "Roundup inhibits steroidogenesis by
disrupting steroidogenic acute regulatory (stAR) protein expression."
Environmental Health Perspectives, AUG v108(N8):769-776.

Toxic to aquatic organisms including fish and invertebrates:

Studies with fish show that glyphosate can be moderately toxic alone,
but when combined with the surfactant normally found in commercial
products, the toxicity is greater.


...but still incredibly low comapred with may other substances.

Toxicity increases with higher
temperatures in fish; one study found that the toxicity of glyphosate
doubled in bluegill and in rainbow trout test subjects when the
temperature of the water was increased from 45 to 63 degrees F.


I'll keep it away from my steamed salmon then.


Folmar, L.C. et al (1979) "Toxicity of the herbicide glyphosate and
several of its formulations to fish and aquatic invertebrates."
Archives of Environmental Contamination and Toxicology, v 8, 269-278.

Significant stream drift of midge larva occurred when Roundup was
added to test water at 2 mg/L.


That's quite a dose in anything larger than a barrel. Doe sit
happen?

Glyphosate can act as a phosphorous source and could stimulate
undesirable eutrophication of waterways.



How much would you need?

Austin, A.P., et al (1991), "Impact of an organophosphate herbicide
(glyphosate) on periphyton communities developed in experimental
streams." Bulletin of Environmental Contamination and Toxicology, v.
47, 29-35.

Toxic to soil microbes including nitrogen-fixing bacteria,
mycorrhizae, actinomycete, and yeast isolates:



Those poor old soil microbes. In what doses, for how long?

One study found that glyphosate inhibited the growth of 59% of
selected naturally occurring soil microbes.



In what doses?

Carlisle, S.M. and Trevors, J.T. (1988), "Glyphosate in the
environment." Water, Air, and Soil Pollution 39:409-420.

Glyphosate, by inhibiting the growth of some microbes allows the
overgrowth of others. This includes microbial plant pathogens.


In what doses?

Fusarium is a naturally occurring soil fungus that is a plant
pathogen. Fusarium invades the roots of plants and either kills the
plant outright or prevents normal growth. Subsistence farmers in
Colombia have noted that fields accidently sprayed with herbicides in
attempts to destroy Coca do not produce at the same level as they did
prior to being sprayed, and in some cases, no crops grow at all.



herbicides? Any particular herbicide?

That's enough vague nonsense.

--
Anton



Michelle Fulton 15-05-2003 07:56 PM

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

"Malcolm" wrote in message
news:577b71b978279dbf99536976d6026765@TeraNews...

You cannot "afford" to not eat properly.


Being able to feed your children *now* takes priority over the future, when
the money is not available to buy organic.

How much is your health worth, more importantly your children?


I'm trying, I'm trying..... There is just too much to know and not nearly
enough time to lift for real info. That's why I asked if you just happen to
already know of a site I could get objective information from. I want to
know everthing, but I've come to the conclusion that I will die trying ;-)

Have you really never taken an anti-biotic?


Never.


Wow! Why? It's so odd these days to not have *ever* taken anti-biotics.

You should make sure doctors never prescribe them either, just to shut
you up, as many do.

"I don't know what it is, so have an antibiotic just in case"


Agreed, but scared mothers, with sick children, tend to listen to someone
who knows more about it than they do. That would be the "caring family
physician".

Well, of course, you get ill, but do you (if you are talking about

yourself)
suffer from new types of allergies that nobody in your family history

ever
suffered from?


No, thankfully.


Very good.

Is that not common sense?


Not every society sterilizes everything their babies touch and eat. They
build stronger immune systems because of it. I will admit, they also lose
more babies to disease, however, there species becomes stronger (survival of
the fitest and all) while we westerners are becoming weaker.

It's a priority today.


Why is washing hands before eating a priority today? We don't have more
germs, just less resistance to them. Most people today, in western
society, just consider it gross not to wash your hands insesently, not
thinking about the actual purpose. It has just become a societal standard.
I don't subscribe and I *almost* never get sick. It is a rare occasion
indeed, for me to be ill.

Did you bath almost daily?


Nope.


LOL :-)

Good point, but in reality I doubt there are many obsessively house
proud people about.


Not anymore, because the mother is out working nowadays. She used to have
more time to clean, and did.

With regard
to the use of highly toxic chemicals there is no doubt we should
beware.


Agreed. I believe there have been some chemicals banned because of their
toxicity. I'm not sure we can do without chemicals completely, though. I'm
not sure we could go back to farming the way we did 100 years ago and feed
the populations we have today. The use of those chemicals is what has made
agriculture able to keep up with the growing population, I believe.

I think the vast majority of us still adopt a basic hygiene
standard, many do not.


Absolutely, and our immune systems and future generations will suffer for
it.

M




Michelle Fulton 15-05-2003 07:56 PM

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 

"anton" wrote in message
...


Do you use toothpaste? soap? non-homemade shoes?
There's no substitute for hard work- grow you own shoes.


LOL :-)) Where do I get Nike seeds?

OK- I'll stay clear of Columbia.


So will everyone else that wants to live long, but that has nothing to do
with herbicides ;-)

M



Malcolm 15-05-2003 08:08 PM

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 
On Thu, 15 May 2003 17:49:55 +0000 (UTC), "anton"
wrote:


Malcolm wrote in message 4a74b2e931751f1b12b9499abcefa76c@TeraNews...
Much as CONservation hooligans RSPB, Woodland Trust etc try to hide
it, the usage of tonnes of a highly toxic weedkiller has detrimental
effects on their reserves.

Gardeners think your OK with Roundup, a little here, a little there? I
don't think so.

The fact is there is no substitute for hard work,


Really? Why are you using a technology that involves
hundreds or thousands of chemicals thne instead of a quill
pen, hypocrite?

you keep spraying
this junk and you'll end up killing everything including US!!



Have you ever used a car or a plane? Do you ever buy
anything that comes by a powered vehicle? But there's no
substitute for hard work, is there? - so walk.

You may only use a bottle now and again, times that by the millions of
bottles sold annually, and we have big problems.


Do you use toothpaste? soap? non-homemade shoes?
There's no substitute for hard work- grow you own shoes.

The farmers use
millions of tonnes per annum to grow their crops, and we end up eating
the crops! go figure.



And the people use millions of tons of paint, instead of lime-wash. We live
in rooms that are painted! Go figure.

Think before you fall for the hype.


http://www.abcbirds.org/pesticides/P...glyphosate.htm

Glyphosate
Toxicity

Glyphosate can be acutely toxic to non-target plants, including
aquatic plants and algae.


Well, go to the foot of our stairs. You get a lot of aquatic plants
on my drive.

The effects of this toxicity on natural
plant succession alters the ecology of treated areas.


Yeah. So do the scores of trees I've planted 'alter the ecology
of [planted] areas'.

In most cases,
the plant species diversity will decrease, and along with it, the
numbers of insects, mammals and birds utilizing these areas as
habitat.


Nope.


Santillo, D.J. et al (1989), "Response of songbirds to
glyphosate-induced habitat changes on clear-cut." Journal of Wildlife
Management, v. 53 no. 1, 64-71.



Have you read anything entitled "response of people to
not living nasty brutish short disease-ridden povetry-struck
lives without chemicals" ? I thought not.

Connor, J.F. and McMillan, L.M. (1990), "Winter utilization by moose
of glyphosate-treated cutovers." Alces 26:91-103.



Well, I haven't noticed any difference to the moose round here
since I started using Roundup. I haven't noticed any moose
round here at all, ot be honest.

Glyphosate is toxic to mammals:



With an LD50 of 4000mg/kg? Don't make me laugh. What's
the LD50 of table salt, by the way?


Most toxicity tests cited by industry and the EPA investigate toxicity
through oral exposure routes. The toxicity of glyphosate and the
common surfactant POEA is much greater through inhalation routes of
exposure, which is a likely exposure scenario for humans residing in
areas of Colombia.


OK- I'll stay clear of Columbia.

Experimentally induced inhalation of Roundup by
rats produced 100% mortality in 24 hours.


How kind. Normal testing only kills 50%.

Humans ingesting as little
as 100 ml of Roundup have died ( suicide attempts using Roundup have a
10-20% success rate.)



Tried drinking 100ml of bleach? 100 tablets of paracetamol?
It's a nasty rough world out there.

Martinez, T.T. and Brown, K. (1991) "Oral and pulmonary toxicology of
the surfactant used in Roundup herbicide." Proceedings of the Western
Pharmacology Society, v. 34, 43-46.

Adam, A., et al (1997) "The oral and intratracheal toxicities of
Roundup and its components on rats." Veterinary and Human Toxicology,
Jun 39(3):147-51.

Glyphosate produces toxic effects on mammalian sperm.


but you don't mention any quantities.

Glyphosate is a
potential endocrine disruptor.



potential? Care to make a list of common chemicals that
appear in households that are potential endocrine disruptors?
have you got a clear view on whetehr your rubber duck is or isn't?

Youssef, M.I., et al (1995), "Toxic effects of carbofuran and
glyphosate on semen characteristics in rabbits." Journal of
Environmental Science and Health, part B, v. 30, 515-534.

Walsh, LP, et al (2000) "Roundup inhibits steroidogenesis by
disrupting steroidogenic acute regulatory (stAR) protein expression."
Environmental Health Perspectives, AUG v108(N8):769-776.

Toxic to aquatic organisms including fish and invertebrates:

Studies with fish show that glyphosate can be moderately toxic alone,
but when combined with the surfactant normally found in commercial
products, the toxicity is greater.


..but still incredibly low comapred with may other substances.

Toxicity increases with higher
temperatures in fish; one study found that the toxicity of glyphosate
doubled in bluegill and in rainbow trout test subjects when the
temperature of the water was increased from 45 to 63 degrees F.


I'll keep it away from my steamed salmon then.


Folmar, L.C. et al (1979) "Toxicity of the herbicide glyphosate and
several of its formulations to fish and aquatic invertebrates."
Archives of Environmental Contamination and Toxicology, v 8, 269-278.

Significant stream drift of midge larva occurred when Roundup was
added to test water at 2 mg/L.


That's quite a dose in anything larger than a barrel. Doe sit
happen?

Glyphosate can act as a phosphorous source and could stimulate
undesirable eutrophication of waterways.



How much would you need?

Austin, A.P., et al (1991), "Impact of an organophosphate herbicide
(glyphosate) on periphyton communities developed in experimental
streams." Bulletin of Environmental Contamination and Toxicology, v.
47, 29-35.

Toxic to soil microbes including nitrogen-fixing bacteria,
mycorrhizae, actinomycete, and yeast isolates:



Those poor old soil microbes. In what doses, for how long?

One study found that glyphosate inhibited the growth of 59% of
selected naturally occurring soil microbes.



In what doses?

Carlisle, S.M. and Trevors, J.T. (1988), "Glyphosate in the
environment." Water, Air, and Soil Pollution 39:409-420.

Glyphosate, by inhibiting the growth of some microbes allows the
overgrowth of others. This includes microbial plant pathogens.


In what doses?

Fusarium is a naturally occurring soil fungus that is a plant
pathogen. Fusarium invades the roots of plants and either kills the
plant outright or prevents normal growth. Subsistence farmers in
Colombia have noted that fields accidently sprayed with herbicides in
attempts to destroy Coca do not produce at the same level as they did
prior to being sprayed, and in some cases, no crops grow at all.



herbicides? Any particular herbicide?

That's enough vague nonsense.


Easy to see how Monsanto make so much money, with gullible people like
you around, to buy highly toxic substances you don't even need anyway!

I bet you have a star named after you, and even an acre of the moon?

Must have seen you coming miles off.


--








So, you dont like reasoned,
well thought out, civil debate?

I understand.

/´¯/)
/¯../
/..../
/´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
/'/.../..../......./¨¯\
('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
\.................'...../
''...\.......... _.·´
\..............(
\.............\..

Malcolm 15-05-2003 08:32 PM

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 
On Thu, 15 May 2003 17:53:18 GMT, "Michelle Fulton"
wrote:


"Malcolm" wrote in message
news:577b71b978279dbf99536976d6026765@TeraNews. ..

You cannot "afford" to not eat properly.


Being able to feed your children *now* takes priority over the future, when
the money is not available to buy organic.


Your choice, it really is.

Have you tried grow your own?

How much is your health worth, more importantly your children?


I'm trying, I'm trying.....


That's all one can ask of oneself, to try and improve things. Well
done, many people just cannot be bothered.

There is just too much to know and not nearly
enough time to lift for real info. That's why I asked if you just happen to
already know of a site I could get objective information from. I want to
know everthing, but I've come to the conclusion that I will die trying ;-)


Haha.. Well just keep looking out for the bulletins on newsgroups.

You could also have a look at

http://www.safetyalerts.com/


http://www.foodsafety.gov/

For an insight into food safety throughout the world.

OR just go to any search engine and type food safety warnings, if you
get the chance.

Have you really never taken an anti-biotic?


Never.


Wow! Why? It's so odd these days to not have *ever* taken anti-biotics.


Maybe it's the "healthy diet" ;-)

You should make sure doctors never prescribe them either, just to shut
you up, as many do.

"I don't know what it is, so have an antibiotic just in case"


Agreed, but scared mothers, with sick children, tend to listen to someone
who knows more about it than they do. That would be the "caring family
physician".


Yeah I know, what I am getting at is the need to ask questions, find
out what's going on, why we do this and that. Be aware!

Well, of course, you get ill, but do you (if you are talking about

yourself)
suffer from new types of allergies that nobody in your family history

ever
suffered from?


No, thankfully.


Very good.

Is that not common sense?


Not every society sterilizes everything their babies touch and eat. They
build stronger immune systems because of it. I will admit, they also lose
more babies to disease, however, there species becomes stronger (survival of
the fitest and all) while we westerners are becoming weaker.

It's a priority today.


Why is washing hands before eating a priority today? We don't have more
germs, just less resistance to them. Most people today, in western
society, just consider it gross not to wash your hands insesently, not
thinking about the actual purpose. It has just become a societal standard.
I don't subscribe and I *almost* never get sick. It is a rare occasion
indeed, for me to be ill.


But "you" are not the problem, it's all the other dirty buggers one
comes into contact with, what have they been up to? There was a survey
done a while back on little snacks left out on the bar of the local
pub, you know nuts, crisps etc for a nibble, these were tested and all
sorts of filth was found on it, including faeces!!

Needless to say I never touch bar snacks any more.

It's also a fact many people do not wash their hands after going to
the loo, fine for them, what about us when we shake their hands.. yuk.

Did you bath almost daily?


Nope.


LOL :-)


Good point, but in reality I doubt there are many obsessively house
proud people about.


Not anymore, because the mother is out working nowadays. She used to have
more time to clean, and did.

With regard
to the use of highly toxic chemicals there is no doubt we should
beware.


Agreed. I believe there have been some chemicals banned because of their
toxicity. I'm not sure we can do without chemicals completely, though. I'm
not sure we could go back to farming the way we did 100 years ago and feed
the populations we have today. The use of those chemicals is what has made
agriculture able to keep up with the growing population, I believe.


I don't know. Have you taken a look at the gross portions served up in
the USA, how big the world is getting? Are we eating more, or are we
being force fed?

I think the vast majority of us still adopt a basic hygiene
standard, many do not.


Absolutely, and our immune systems and future generations will suffer for
it.


No doubt about it.

It all comes down to the fact, if we can make a change for the better,
at little real cost to ourselves, why not the hell go for it?



--








So, you dont like reasoned,
well thought out, civil debate?

I understand.

/´¯/)
/¯../
/..../
/´¯/'...'/´¯¯`·¸
/'/.../..../......./¨¯\
('(...´...´.... ¯~/'...')
\.................'...../
''...\.......... _.·´
\..............(
\.............\..

Suzy Orr 15-05-2003 08:44 PM

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 
Oh, how this posting...and some of your responses have made me laugh.
Interesting how fools can find "experts" to support them, no matter what the
topic. I look at our 1000+ acres of corn and think that with just a little
"hard work" we wouldn't have to use those "deadly" chemicals.
Interesting...those who talk about "hard work" have probably never gotten
out and really worked a day of their lives.

Many years ago, when Roundup was still new, we attended a workshop on how to
use it for planting no-till. The gentleman who conducted the program, to
show us how safe it is, drank a glass of it. Within the last month, I saw
that man...and he is still very healthy and vigorous. He was one of no-till
plantings most active proponents, and my kids have always called him "No
Till Bill". The next time I see him, I will tell him that the "experts"
say he is really dead.

While I do not advocate drinking it....I do believe that it is not a threat
to the environment or "US".

suzy orr







Kay Easton 15-05-2003 08:56 PM

The dangers of weed killers - Glyphostae aka Roundup, the hidden killer.
 
In article om,
Michelle Fulton writes

"Malcolm" wrote in message
news:577b71b978279dbf99536976d6026765@TeraNews. ..

Good point, but in reality I doubt there are many obsessively house
proud people about.


Not anymore, because the mother is out working nowadays. She used to have
more time to clean, and did.


That is not self evident. Research in the UK has shown that women
nowadays spend very little less time cleaning than they used to, despite
so many more of them in paid work.
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm


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