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Old 14-06-2003, 05:32 AM
Neil Trotter
 
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Default Burning Issue: Runner Beans & Sense of Direction

Yesterday morning I posted the following query in nz.general. At a
guess, I'd say the newsgroup readership intersection is little more than
a handful. There is no Kiwi gardening newsgroup (that's carried on my
server at any rate).

So far no-one's been able to help me on this, though I have at least
been introduced to a fascinating new word: widdershins, or withershins
(Google it if you don't already know). So I thought I'd consult the
collective wisdom of the urg hivemind.

Also I ask the question here fully confident that, even if no-one is
able to answer it, at least I will have succeeded in causing a whole new
bunch of people to scratch their heads and lie awake at nights just
wondering ...


================================================== ======================
I'm a gardening newby here in the Land of Pom, and have just made a
discovery whilst checking out the veges on early morning patrol, namely
that my runner beans are climbing up the poles anti-clockwise (as viewed
from above), or to put it another way, anti-sunwise.

What I would have expected to see is that they would wind themselves
clockwise, following the sun on its daily journey around the sky, which
here (as in the southern hemisphere) rises in the East and sets in the
West. The difference is that instead of moving West via North (which it
does in the SH), here it is in the South at midday. Make sense?

As for runner beans -- I'm not sure they'll be in season just now, even
in Northland, but maybe someone who knows about such things can tell me
if they wind around poles the *other* way (i.e. clockwise as viewed from
above) in NZ?

I'm guessing that if they do, it's somehow related to the movement of
the sun, and not much at all to do with the coriolis effect :-)
================================================== ======================


Footnote: of course the query is not confined to NZ (I just happen to
have ties to it), but any runner-bean-growing location in the southern
hemisphere.


--Neil.


--
Neil Trotter, Canewdon, UK. (Amend email address to use).

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Old 14-06-2003, 08:20 AM
martin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burning Issue: Runner Beans & Sense of Direction

On Sat, 14 Jun 2003 05:24:31 +0100, Neil Trotter
wrote:

snip

As for runner beans -- I'm not sure they'll be in season just now, even
in Northland, but maybe someone who knows about such things can tell me
if they wind around poles the *other* way (i.e. clockwise as viewed from
above) in NZ?

I'm guessing that if they do, it's somehow related to the movement of
the sun, and not much at all to do with the coriolis effect :-)
================================================= =======================


Footnote: of course the query is not confined to NZ (I just happen to
have ties to it), but any runner-bean-growing location in the southern
hemisphere.


and do they grow straight up on the equator
--
martin
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Old 14-06-2003, 09:56 AM
Malcolm
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burning Issue: Runner Beans & Sense of Direction


In article , martin
writes
On Sat, 14 Jun 2003 05:24:31 +0100, Neil Trotter
wrote:

snip

As for runner beans -- I'm not sure they'll be in season just now, even
in Northland, but maybe someone who knows about such things can tell me
if they wind around poles the *other* way (i.e. clockwise as viewed from
above) in NZ?

I'm guessing that if they do, it's somehow related to the movement of
the sun, and not much at all to do with the coriolis effect :-)
================================================ ========================


Footnote: of course the query is not confined to NZ (I just happen to
have ties to it), but any runner-bean-growing location in the southern
hemisphere.


and do they grow straight up on the equator


Cue Flanders and Swann song called 'Misalliance' on the subject.....

The fragrant Honeysuckle spirals clockwise to the sun
and many other creepers do the same
But some climb anticlockwise,
the Bindweed does for one,
or Convovulus, to give her proper name.
Rooted on either side a door
one of each species grew
and raced up to the window ledge above
Each corkscrewed to the lintel in the only way it knew
where they stopped, touched tendrils, smiled
and fell in love.

Said the right-handed Honeysuckle to the left handed Bindweed
'oh let us get married if our parents don't mind we'd
be loving and inseparable, inextricably entwined we'd
live happily ever after' said the Honeysuckle to the Bindweed.

To the Honeysuckle's parents it came as a shock,
the Bindweeds, they cried, 'are inferior stock,
They're uncultivated, of breeding bereft
We twine to the right and they twine to the left'.

Said the anticlockwise Bindweed to the clockwise Honeysuckle;
'We'd better start saving
Many a mickle mac's a muckle
Then run away on a honeymoon and hope that our luck'll
take a turn for the better', said the Bindweed to the Honeysuckle.

A bee who was passing exclaimed to them then;
'I've said it before and I'll say it again
Consider your offshoots, if offshoots there be,
They'll never receive any blessing from me'.
Poor little sucker, how will it learn
When it is climbing, which way to turn,
Right, Left, what a disgrace
Our it may go straight up and fall flat on its face.

Said the right-hand thread Honeysuckle to the left-hand thread Bindweed
'It seems that against us all fate has combined
Oh my darling, oh my darling
Oh my darling Columbine
thou art lost and gone forever
We shall never intertwine'.

Together they found them, the very next day
They had pulled up their roots and just shrivelled away
Deprived of that freedom for which we must fight
To veer to the left or to veer to the right.


--
Malcolm
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Old 14-06-2003, 09:56 AM
martin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burning Issue: Runner Beans & Sense of Direction

On Sat, 14 Jun 2003 09:37:25 +0100, Malcolm
wrote:


In article , martin
writes
On Sat, 14 Jun 2003 05:24:31 +0100, Neil Trotter
wrote:

snip

As for runner beans -- I'm not sure they'll be in season just now, even
in Northland, but maybe someone who knows about such things can tell me
if they wind around poles the *other* way (i.e. clockwise as viewed from
above) in NZ?

I'm guessing that if they do, it's somehow related to the movement of
the sun, and not much at all to do with the coriolis effect :-)
=============================================== =========================


Footnote: of course the query is not confined to NZ (I just happen to
have ties to it), but any runner-bean-growing location in the southern
hemisphere.


and do they grow straight up on the equator


Cue Flanders and Swann song called 'Misalliance' on the subject.....

The fragrant Honeysuckle spirals clockwise to the sun
and many other creepers do the same
But some climb anticlockwise,
the Bindweed does for one,
or Convovulus, to give her proper name.
Rooted on either side a door
one of each species grew
and raced up to the window ledge above
Each corkscrewed to the lintel in the only way it knew
where they stopped, touched tendrils, smiled
and fell in love.


snip a load of old Flanders


I thought somebody might post that :-)
--
martin
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Old 14-06-2003, 08:44 PM
JennyC
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burning Issue: Runner Beans & Sense of Direction


"Neil Trotter" wrote
Also I ask the question here fully confident that, even if no-one is
able to answer it, at least I will have succeeded in causing a whole

new
bunch of people to scratch their heads and lie awake at nights just
wondering ...


Yep :~))


================================================== ====================
==
I'm a gardening newby here in the Land of Pom, and have just made a
discovery whilst checking out the veges on early morning patrol,

namely
that my runner beans are climbing up the poles anti-clockwise (as

viewed
from above), or to put it another way, anti-sunwise.

What I would have expected to see is that they would wind themselves
clockwise, following the sun on its daily journey around the sky,

which
here (as in the southern hemisphere) rises in the East and sets in

the
West. The difference is that instead of moving West via North

(which it
does in the SH), here it is in the South at midday. Make sense?

As for runner beans -- I'm not sure they'll be in season just now,

even
in Northland, but maybe someone who knows about such things can tell

me
if they wind around poles the *other* way (i.e. clockwise as viewed

from
above) in NZ?

I'm guessing that if they do, it's somehow related to the movement

of
the sun, and not much at all to do with the coriolis effect :-)

================================================== ====================
==

Interesting subject...............

http://www.smgrowers.com/info/vine.asp has :
The Twiners
This group of graspers has tips on the new growth that twist around
objects. These twiners often grow out in circular manner
(circunutation) but contrary to popular belief, there is no
relationship between right vs. left directional twisting as a function
of being in the northern or southern hemisphere. It has been found
that 95% of direction of growth is constant to species and the others
move in the direction that opportunity offers. Pole beans, Ipomoea,
Wisteria, Mandevilla, Stephanotis, Lonicera, Jasminum, Solanum and
Aristolochia are all examples of these simple twiners. Some in this
category have touch sensitive tissues such as those of Clematis whose
leaf tissue reacts to friction, causing petioles to curl around the
cause of the friction. Maurandia and Rhodochiton react in similar
manner


More theory:
http://www.ots.duke.edu/tropibiojnl/...ICA/TWINER.HTM

HTH Jenny






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Old 14-06-2003, 09:08 PM
Mary Fisher
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burning Issue: Runner Beans & Sense of Direction




"Malcolm" wrote in message
...

In article , martin
writes
On Sat, 14 Jun 2003 05:24:31 +0100, Neil Trotter
wrote:

snip

As for runner beans -- I'm not sure they'll be in season just now, even
in Northland, but maybe someone who knows about such things can tell me
if they wind around poles the *other* way (i.e. clockwise as viewed from
above) in NZ?

I'm guessing that if they do, it's somehow related to the movement of
the sun, and not much at all to do with the coriolis effect :-)
================================================ ========================


Footnote: of course the query is not confined to NZ (I just happen to
have ties to it), but any runner-bean-growing location in the southern
hemisphere.


and do they grow straight up on the equator


Cue Flanders and Swann song called 'Misalliance' on the subject.....

The fragrant Honeysuckle spirals clockwise to the sun
and many other creepers do the same
But some climb anticlockwise,
the Bindweed does for one,
or Convovulus, to give her proper name.
Rooted on either side a door
one of each species grew
and raced up to the window ledge above
Each corkscrewed to the lintel in the only way it knew
where they stopped, touched tendrils, smiled
and fell in love.

Said the right-handed Honeysuckle to the left handed Bindweed
'oh let us get married if our parents don't mind we'd
be loving and inseparable, inextricably entwined we'd
live happily ever after' said the Honeysuckle to the Bindweed.

To the Honeysuckle's parents it came as a shock,
the Bindweeds, they cried, 'are inferior stock,
They're uncultivated, of breeding bereft
We twine to the right and they twine to the left'.

Said the anticlockwise Bindweed to the clockwise Honeysuckle;
'We'd better start saving
Many a mickle mac's a muckle
Then run away on a honeymoon and hope that our luck'll
take a turn for the better', said the Bindweed to the Honeysuckle.

A bee who was passing exclaimed to them then;
'I've said it before and I'll say it again
Consider your offshoots, if offshoots there be,
They'll never receive any blessing from me'.
Poor little sucker, how will it learn
When it is climbing, which way to turn,
Right, Left, what a disgrace
Our it may go straight up and fall flat on its face.

Said the right-hand thread Honeysuckle to the left-hand thread Bindweed
'It seems that against us all fate has combined
Oh my darling, oh my darling
Oh my darling Columbine
thou art lost and gone forever
We shall never intertwine'.

Together they found them, the very next day
They had pulled up their roots and just shrivelled away
Deprived of that freedom for which we must fight
To veer to the left or to veer to the right.


That's the one. And very topical.

But it doesn't mention widdershins ...

Mary


--
Malcolm



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Old 15-06-2003, 07:32 AM
Neil Trotter
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burning Issue: Runner Beans & Sense of Direction

On Sat, 14 Jun 2003 21:21:26 +0200, in uk.rec.gardening, you wrote:

Interesting subject...............

http://www.smgrowers.com/info/vine.asp has :
The Twiners

[ ... snip ... ]

More theory:
http://www.ots.duke.edu/tropibiojnl/...ICA/TWINER.HTM

HTH Jenny


Science!

Particularly interesting to read the final point (E. H. Rapoport 1992
personal comment) in the second of the above references:

"Historical factors, such as the possible genetic fixation of growth
direction when some twining plants originated in a different hemisphere
than the one in which they grow today should also be considered".

Thank you, Jenny.


Jenny
Malcolm
On Sat, 14 Jun 2003 21:21:26 +0200, in uk.rec.gardening, you wrote:

Interesting subject...............

http://www.smgrowers.com/info/vine.asp has :
The Twiners

[ ... snip ... ]

More theory:
http://www.ots.duke.edu/tropibiojnl/...ICA/TWINER.HTM

HTH Jenny


Science!

Particularly interesting to read the final point (E. H. Rapoport 1992
personal comment) in the second of the above references:

"Historical factors, such as the possible genetic fixation of growth
direction when some twining plants originated in a different hemisphere
than the one in which they grow today should also be considered".

Thank you, Jenny :-)

Thanks also to Malcolm for the Flanders & Swann. I wasn't aware of this
song, despite knowing much of their repertoire. Someone also posted
this in the Kiwi group, which was a surprise.


--Neil.



--
Neil Trotter, Canewdon, UK. (Amend email address to use).
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Old 15-06-2003, 07:56 AM
Malcolm
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burning Issue: Runner Beans & Sense of Direction


In article , Neil Trotter
writes

Thanks also to Malcolm for the Flanders & Swann. I wasn't aware of this
song, despite knowing much of their repertoire. Someone also posted
this in the Kiwi group, which was a surprise.

Getting a bit off-topic, but in case you are missing any more of their
gems:

http://timothyplatypus.tripod.com/FaS/

--
Malcolm
  #9   Report Post  
Old 15-06-2003, 12:32 PM
Neil Trotter
 
Posts: n/a
Default Burning Issue: Runner Beans & Sense of Direction

In article , Malcolm said:

Getting a bit off-topic, but in case you are missing any more of their
gems:

http://timothyplatypus.tripod.com/FaS/


Bookmarked :-)

And I say OT is OK when it's interesting (which this is), and
particularly when it's arrived at by way of something which is On Topic.

One of the reasons this newsgroup is such fun to read is that no-one
seems to get too serious about such issues. Maybe all the time spent in
the garden really is therapeutic, and the folks here just a little bit
more laid back.

I was tempted to start a new thread, but I've been in the garden this
morning and I feel just waaaaay too relaxed ...


--Neil.


--
Neil Trotter, Canewdon, UK. (Amend email address to use).


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