Composting Tea Bags
 

On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:06:21 +0100, "Brian Watson"
wrote:


"Tim" wrote in message
news:oprrc6gxqhwxhha1@localhost...
Isn't it illegal ( EU directive ) to have a compost heap within 270 feet
(?)
of a domestic dwelling, so if you have one at all you're probably a
criminal, never mind what you put on it.....
It is also illegal ( EU directive ) to burn wood on other than the
ground it was grown on. I expect you'll all be turning yourselves in to
the police bright and early tomorrow - if you come clean they might go
easy on you!!!

I found this on Google, unfortunaltely it's just gossip, as there are no
links or hint at an actual reference.

Try Daily Mail/Telegraphs archives. Both are famous for this sort of "silly
season" EU stuff.

Do they actually believe the rubbish they print?
--
martin

Composting Tea Bags
 

On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:42:34 +0100, "Pickle"
wrote:


"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

Don't forget the Sun. Unfortunately, despite the complete drivel
they publish, they are used by the majority of the UK as the main
source of their political viewpoints. We are not yet as bad as
the USA in this respect, but are getting there.

You mean if I read it in the Sun it might not be true???? (world falls
apart)
That might mean Eastenders isn't real!

Steady on! People have been burnt at the stake for suggesting less.

--
martin

Composting Tea Bags
 

On 26 Jun 2003 07:46:23 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:


In article ,
"andrewpreece" writes:
|
| Isn't it illegal ( EU directive ) to have a compost heap within 270 feet (?)
| of a domestic dwelling, so if you have one at all you're probably a
| criminal, never mind what you put on it.....
| It is also illegal ( EU directive ) to burn wood on other than the
| ground it was grown on. I expect you'll all be turning yourselves in to
| the police bright and early tomorrow - if you come clean they might go
| easy on you!!!

Don't accept the propaganda of the Little England fanatics as
truth - most of it is VERY far from that!

In the UK, 95% of what is blamed on EU rules and bureaucracy is
due to Whitehall, which is damn good at finding excuses to do what
they want to do and passing the blame onto someone else. After
many years of the practice, I am glad that even the Torygraph has
FINALLY realised that the practice of 'gold plating'[*] is the
norm, even though it still publishes mainly anti-EU propaganda.

There is also the fact that these directives and other regulations
usually start off by being proposed and even pushed by countries'
bureaucrats on the EU committees. At least once or twice, and I
believe many more times than that, the UK has demanded some that
were not wanted by almost anyone else, only to then claim in public
that they were all the fault of the EU!

[*] Taking an EU directive, such as a requirement to control an
area to avoid cross-border crime or health problems, and building
it up into a total ban or extreme bureaucratic requirement.

Give credit where credit is due. And do the same for blame.

The much derided EU Recreational Craft Directive was almost entirely
the work of the British Ship Building Federation trying to protect the
British boat building industry.
--
martin

Composting Tea Bags
 

"Tim" wrote in message
news:oprrdo64yqwxhha1@localhost...
On 26 Jun 2003 13:46:11 GMT, Nick Maclaren wrote:


In article oprrdgeij4wxhha1@localhost,
Tim writes:
| | But that was 1999, did they look at the 2001 amendments ? Which to
my | untrained eye looks like the 1999 Order has been changed to only
apply to | catering businesses kitchens and farms etc. What the order
says is that any | waste from COMMERCIAL kitchens can't be composted.
So
unless you run a | business from your ktichen you're ok.

No, that is a tightening of the 1999 order.

I read it as shifting the emphasis.


| But I don't see what the problem is because the 1999 order applies to
| feeding animals waste, not to making compost. I am hard pushed to
find
any | connection - unless you keep animals on your land, or you let
your
compost | be fed to other animals. The amendment has changed this to
make it clearer | that it applies to commercial waste and/or farm
animals. I'm sort of | discussing this with Nick at the moment.

Read it again. Look at sections 3 and 5, for example. Non-Vegan
kitchen waste is probably an animal product under the order.

Sorry, I can't see what you mean. I think it all hinges on the definition
of animal by-products:

From the 1999 order:

'Interpretation and scope

Snip for clarity

At the risk of taking this slightly beyond the realms of gardening. There
are a number of problems with the legality of compost heaps that we are now
encountering.

We grow pretty well everything edible and raise pigs, poultry, sheep and
cattle - all on a very small scale.

The reasonable desire to keep animal scraps away from animals, leads into
some very strange country.

We now have problems keeping a pig and a compost heap. The theory being that
we might put kitchen waste which might contain scraps which might get to the
pig. So basically the combination is banned. Pigs or compost heaps, not both
UNLESS and we are lucky, you have a separate sink away from the kitchen in
which vegetables are prepared. We are lucky, we do.

I say "pigs" because we are no longer allowed to keep a single sow (animal
welfare). So that is the end of the cottager's pig. In reality that means a
minimum of two sows plus one (spare) and the prospect of up to thirty plus
piglets per year. We are not commercial, we sell nothing, so this new
legislation is causing very real problems. The combinations of restrictions
are starting to make our lifestyle impossible.

There is no doubt that quite aside from the silly scare stories in the
newspapers, new rules are now invading territory that was once the protected
preserve of the amateur.


--
Pat Gardiner
www.go-self-sufficient.com



Tim.

Composting Tea Bags
 

Nick Maclaren wrote:

In article ,
Ophelia wrote:
As do I

I always feel slightly guilty though because I have an odd memory that some
law came into being which would affect our rights to put tea bags into the
compost bin.

Does anyone else remember that or am I totally mad:))

Not TOTALLY. It is illegal (yes, a crime) to put disposable nappies
into the dustbin, and there was a proposal to make it illegal to
put meat scraps into the compost bin, but I don't remember anything
explicitly about tea bags.

um. The proposal (the Animal By-Products Amendment Order 2001) would
have made it illegal to put teabags or any other domestic kitchen waste
(including vegetable matter) in the compost bin, but it was decided that
home composting should have a derogation. Probably because TPTB couldn't
work out how to police it...

regards
sarah


--
Waist deep, neck deep
We'll be drowning before too long
We're neck deep in the Big Muddy
And the damned fools keep yelling to push on

Composting Tea Bags
 

"sw" wrote in message
...
Nick Maclaren wrote:

In article ,
Ophelia wrote:
As do I

I always feel slightly guilty though because I have an odd memory that
some
law came into being which would affect our rights to put tea bags into
the
compost bin.

Does anyone else remember that or am I totally mad:))

Not TOTALLY. It is illegal (yes, a crime) to put disposable nappies
into the dustbin, and there was a proposal to make it illegal to
put meat scraps into the compost bin, but I don't remember anything
explicitly about tea bags.

um. The proposal (the Animal By-Products Amendment Order 2001) would
have made it illegal to put teabags or any other domestic kitchen waste
(including vegetable matter) in the compost bin, but it was decided that
home composting should have a derogation. Probably because TPTB couldn't
work out how to police it...

Thank you Sarah... you have saved my sanity or what is left of it:)

O

Composting Tea Bags
 

The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:

In article ,
Ophelia wrote:

I always feel slightly guilty though because I have an odd memory that some
law came into being which would affect our rights to put tea bags into the
compost bin.

Does anyone else remember that or am I totally mad:))

Not TOTALLY. It is illegal (yes, a crime) to put disposable nappies
into the dustbin,(snip)

Even totally mad people can distinguish teabags from disposable nappies.

(Waits to be told that in Cambridge/Africa all the tea tastes like pee
and all the babies have boiled bottoms.)

Janet.

Composting Tea Bags
 

Ophelia wrote:

"sw" wrote in message
...
Nick Maclaren wrote:

In article ,
Ophelia wrote:
As do I

I always feel slightly guilty though because I have an odd memory that
some
law came into being which would affect our rights to put tea bags into
the
compost bin.

Does anyone else remember that or am I totally mad:))

Not TOTALLY. It is illegal (yes, a crime) to put disposable nappies
into the dustbin, and there was a proposal to make it illegal to
put meat scraps into the compost bin, but I don't remember anything
explicitly about tea bags.

um. The proposal (the Animal By-Products Amendment Order 2001) would
have made it illegal to put teabags or any other domestic kitchen waste
(including vegetable matter) in the compost bin, but it was decided that
home composting should have a derogation. Probably because TPTB couldn't
work out how to police it...

Thank you Sarah... you have saved my sanity or what is left of it:)

Essjay posted something about the original order; as I understand it,
the Amendment allows farmers to put composted waste on fields (the
original order prevented this). In September our District Council is to
introduce a green bin scheme collecting household compostable waste;
they've deliberately avoided the issue by dealing with a firm who have
contracted to supply anaerobic digestion facilities. I want a tour of
the site when it's up and running!

regards
sarah


--
Waist deep, neck deep
We'll be drowning before too long
We're neck deep in the Big Muddy
And the damned fools keep yelling to push on

Composting Tea Bags
 

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:

In article ,
Ophelia wrote:

I always feel slightly guilty though because I have an odd memory that
some
law came into being which would affect our rights to put tea bags into
the
compost bin.

Does anyone else remember that or am I totally mad:))

Not TOTALLY. It is illegal (yes, a crime) to put disposable nappies
into the dustbin,(snip)

Even totally mad people can distinguish teabags from disposable nappies.

(Waits to be told that in Cambridge/Africa all the tea tastes like pee
and all the babies have boiled bottoms.)

LOLOL

Composting Tea Bags
 

"sw" wrote in message
...
Ophelia wrote:

"sw" wrote in message
...
Nick Maclaren wrote:

In article ,
Ophelia wrote:
As do I

I always feel slightly guilty though because I have an odd memory
that
some
law came into being which would affect our rights to put tea bags
into
the
compost bin.

Does anyone else remember that or am I totally mad:))

Not TOTALLY. It is illegal (yes, a crime) to put disposable nappies
into the dustbin, and there was a proposal to make it illegal to
put meat scraps into the compost bin, but I don't remember anything
explicitly about tea bags.

um. The proposal (the Animal By-Products Amendment Order 2001) would
have made it illegal to put teabags or any other domestic kitchen
waste
(including vegetable matter) in the compost bin, but it was decided
that
home composting should have a derogation. Probably because TPTB
couldn't
work out how to police it...

Thank you Sarah... you have saved my sanity or what is left of it:)

Essjay posted something about the original order; as I understand it,
the Amendment allows farmers to put composted waste on fields (the
original order prevented this). In September our District Council is to
introduce a green bin scheme collecting household compostable waste;
they've deliberately avoided the issue by dealing with a firm who have
contracted to supply anaerobic digestion facilities. I want a tour of
the site when it's up and running!

Be interested to hear about it

Composting Tea Bags
 

"Tim" wrote in message
news:oprrc6gxqhwxhha1@localhost...
Isn't it illegal ( EU directive ) to have a compost heap within 270 feet
(?)
of a domestic dwelling, so if you have one at all you're probably a
criminal, never mind what you put on it.....
It is also illegal ( EU directive ) to burn wood on other than the
ground it was grown on. I expect you'll all be turning yourselves in to
the police bright and early tomorrow - if you come clean they might go
easy on you!!!

I found this on Google, unfortunaltely it's just gossip, as there are no
links or hint at an actual reference.
Tim.

That's a bit thick, isn't it? Are you saying that unless I provide cast iron
documentary evidence with every comment I make it is automatically
invalid?
I confess my comments were not the result of personally digging
through the Big Book of Stupid EU Directives ( inc. the ones on bent
cucumbers and bananas ), but they were based on articles in a respected*
newspaper and I reckon that's good enough for a light-hearted comment
in uk.rec.gardening.
I now await the EU Directive banning people on usenet from making
comments without providing extensive supporting evidence.

* Though I'm guessing it's not the one you take!

Andy ;-)

Composting Tea Bags
 

On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:31:28 +0100, "andrewpreece"
wrote:


"Tim" wrote in message
news:oprrc6gxqhwxhha1@localhost...
Isn't it illegal ( EU directive ) to have a compost heap within 270 feet
(?)
of a domestic dwelling, so if you have one at all you're probably a
criminal, never mind what you put on it.....
It is also illegal ( EU directive ) to burn wood on other than the
ground it was grown on. I expect you'll all be turning yourselves in to
the police bright and early tomorrow - if you come clean they might go
easy on you!!!

I found this on Google, unfortunaltely it's just gossip, as there are no
links or hint at an actual reference.
Tim.

That's a bit thick, isn't it? Are you saying that unless I provide cast iron
documentary evidence with every comment I make it is automatically
invalid?
I confess my comments were not the result of personally digging
through the Big Book of Stupid EU Directives

AKA Daily Mail?

( inc. the ones on bent
cucumbers and bananas ), but they were based on articles in a respected*
newspaper

don't believe everything you read, especially in right wing respected
newspapers. with a political axe to grind.

and I reckon that's good enough for a light-hearted comment
in uk.rec.gardening.
I now await the EU Directive banning people on usenet from making
comments without providing extensive supporting evidence.

* Though I'm guessing it's not the one you take!

Andy ;-)


--
martin

Composting Tea Bags
 

On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:25:30 +0200, martin wrote:

On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 23:03:31 +0100, Kay Easton
wrote:

In article , Nick Maclaren
writes
In article ,
Ophelia wrote:
As do I

I always feel slightly guilty though because I have an odd memory that
some
law came into being which would affect our rights to put tea bags into
the
compost bin.

Does anyone else remember that or am I totally mad:))

Not TOTALLY. It is illegal (yes, a crime) to put disposable nappies

So how is one meant to dispose of them?

Sun bake them dry and smoke. Serve with horse radish sauce.

I feel sick! Tim.

Composting Tea Bags
 

On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:58:49 +0000 (UTC), Pat Gardiner
wrote:


"Tim" wrote in message
news:oprrdo64yqwxhha1@localhost...
On 26 Jun 2003 13:46:11 GMT, Nick Maclaren wrote:


In article oprrdgeij4wxhha1@localhost,
Tim writes:
| | But that was 1999, did they look at the 2001 amendments ? Which
to
my | untrained eye looks like the 1999 Order has been changed to only
apply to | catering businesses kitchens and farms etc. What the order
says is that any | waste from COMMERCIAL kitchens can't be composted.
So
unless you run a | business from your ktichen you're ok.

No, that is a tightening of the 1999 order.

I read it as shifting the emphasis.


| But I don't see what the problem is because the 1999 order applies
to
| feeding animals waste, not to making compost. I am hard pushed to
find
any | connection - unless you keep animals on your land, or you let
your
compost | be fed to other animals. The amendment has changed this to
make it clearer | that it applies to commercial waste and/or farm
animals. I'm sort of | discussing this with Nick at the moment.

Read it again. Look at sections 3 and 5, for example. Non-Vegan
kitchen waste is probably an animal product under the order.

Sorry, I can't see what you mean. I think it all hinges on the
definition
of animal by-products:

From the 1999 order:

'Interpretation and scope

Snip for clarity

At the risk of taking this slightly beyond the realms of gardening. There
are a number of problems with the legality of compost heaps that we are
now
encountering.

We grow pretty well everything edible and raise pigs, poultry, sheep and
cattle - all on a very small scale.

The reasonable desire to keep animal scraps away from animals, leads into
some very strange country.

We now have problems keeping a pig and a compost heap. The theory being
that
we might put kitchen waste which might contain scraps which might get to
the
pig. So basically the combination is banned. Pigs or compost heaps, not
both
UNLESS and we are lucky, you have a separate sink away from the kitchen
in
which vegetables are prepared. We are lucky, we do.

I say "pigs" because we are no longer allowed to keep a single sow
(animal
welfare). So that is the end of the cottager's pig. In reality that means
a
minimum of two sows plus one (spare) and the prospect of up to thirty
plus
piglets per year. We are not commercial, we sell nothing, so this new
legislation is causing very real problems. The combinations of
restrictions
are starting to make our lifestyle impossible.

There is no doubt that quite aside from the silly scare stories in the
newspapers, new rules are now invading territory that was once the
protected
preserve of the amateur.

I can see that being a big problem. Especially as the concepts of keeping a
few animals for yourself and composting are not from a totally different
planet. Maybe the bit in the amanement applies -where they use the
definiteion of livestock, instead of animal. Livestock being any animals
used for farming. Would your situation be regarded as farming or not? I
expect it would, as I expect Sod's Law to apply wherever possible.

Tim.

Tim.

Composting Tea Bags
 

On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:07:51 +0200, Tim
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:25:30 +0200, martin wrote:

On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 23:03:31 +0100, Kay Easton
wrote:

In article , Nick Maclaren
writes
In article ,
Ophelia wrote:
As do I

I always feel slightly guilty though because I have an odd memory that
some
law came into being which would affect our rights to put tea bags into
the
compost bin.

Does anyone else remember that or am I totally mad:))

Not TOTALLY. It is illegal (yes, a crime) to put disposable nappies

So how is one meant to dispose of them?

Sun bake them dry and smoke. Serve with horse radish sauce.

I feel sick! Tim.

It;s an acquired taste.
It's soon to be banned by Brussels :-)
--
martin

Composting Tea Bags
 

On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 12:31:28 +0100, andrewpreece
wrote:


"Tim" wrote in message
news:oprrc6gxqhwxhha1@localhost...
Isn't it illegal ( EU directive ) to have a compost heap within 270
feet
(?)
of a domestic dwelling, so if you have one at all you're probably a
criminal, never mind what you put on it.....
It is also illegal ( EU directive ) to burn wood on other than the
ground it was grown on. I expect you'll all be turning yourselves in
to
the police bright and early tomorrow - if you come clean they might go
easy on you!!!

I found this on Google, unfortunaltely it's just gossip, as there are no
links or hint at an actual reference.
Tim.

That's a bit thick, isn't it? Are you saying that unless I provide cast
iron
documentary evidence with every comment I make it is automatically
invalid?

No, my apologies. See below.

I confess my comments were not the result of personally digging
through the Big Book of Stupid EU Directives ( inc. the ones on bent
cucumbers and bananas ),
That'd be a full-time job. It must be a pretty big book by now.

but they were based on articles in a respected*
newspaper and I reckon that's good enough for a light-hearted comment
in uk.rec.gardening.
Absolutely.


I now await the EU Directive banning people on usenet from making
comments without providing extensive supporting evidence.

* Though I'm guessing it's not the one you take!
What are you trying to say here ? Come on, out with it. :-)

Andy ;-)

Andy, I should have posted as link to another article, and it was that to
which I was refering, but somehow I forgot to include the link. My mistake.
I wasn't actually commenting on your post.
No, I don't expect cast-iron documentary evidence at all in a discussion,
btw. But I would expect some sort of reference from a halfway decent site
that writes articles like that. Hence my comment on it being non-
followupable. Tim.

Composting Tea Bags
 

On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:20:06 +0200, martin wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:07:51 +0200, Tim
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:25:30 +0200, martin wrote:

On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 23:03:31 +0100, Kay Easton
wrote:

In article , Nick Maclaren
writes
In article ,
Ophelia wrote:
As do I

I always feel slightly guilty though because I have an odd memory
that some
law came into being which would affect our rights to put tea bags
into the
compost bin.

Does anyone else remember that or am I totally mad:))

Not TOTALLY. It is illegal (yes, a crime) to put disposable nappies

So how is one meant to dispose of them?

Sun bake them dry and smoke. Serve with horse radish sauce.

I feel sick! Tim.

It;s an acquired taste. It's soon to be banned by Brussels :-)

I hope so ! The one thing they've ever done that's worth while. :-)
Tim.

Composting Tea Bags
 

On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 10:02:46 +0200, Tim
wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:20:06 +0200, martin wrote:

On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 09:07:51 +0200, Tim
wrote:

On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 18:25:30 +0200, martin wrote:

On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 23:03:31 +0100, Kay Easton
wrote:

In article , Nick Maclaren
writes
In article ,
Ophelia wrote:
As do I

I always feel slightly guilty though because I have an odd memory
that some
law came into being which would affect our rights to put tea bags
into the
compost bin.

Does anyone else remember that or am I totally mad:))

Not TOTALLY. It is illegal (yes, a crime) to put disposable nappies

So how is one meant to dispose of them?

Sun bake them dry and smoke. Serve with horse radish sauce.

I feel sick! Tim.

It;s an acquired taste. It's soon to be banned by Brussels :-)

I hope so ! The one thing they've ever done that's worth while. :-)

I would have thought the current consumer laws in UK that are the
direct result of an EU directive would be considered as worthwhile by
everybody except Dixons.

--
martin

Composting Tea Bags
 

I would have thought the current consumer laws in UK that are the
direct result of an EU directive would be considered as worthwhile by
everybody except Dixons.

Yeah ! Tim.

Composting Tea Bags
 

On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 10:25:34 +0200, Tim
wrote:

I would have thought the current consumer laws in UK that are the
direct result of an EU directive would be considered as worthwhile by
everybody except Dixons.

Yeah ! Tim.

as an aside, I once had a very good freind who worked as a salesman for
Dixons. he was a nice bloke, and because he couldn't stand to listen to all
the slimy, lying sales-pitches he eventually left to save his concience. He
became an estate agent. Tim.

Composting Tea Bags
 

"Tim" wrote in message
news:oprrezn51vwxhha1@localhost...
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:58:49 +0000 (UTC), Pat Gardiner
wrote:


"Tim" wrote in message
news:oprrdo64yqwxhha1@localhost...
On 26 Jun 2003 13:46:11 GMT, Nick Maclaren wrote:


In article oprrdgeij4wxhha1@localhost,
Tim writes:
| | But that was 1999, did they look at the 2001 amendments ? Which
to
my | untrained eye looks like the 1999 Order has been changed to
only
apply to | catering businesses kitchens and farms etc. What the
order
says is that any | waste from COMMERCIAL kitchens can't be
composted.
So
unless you run a | business from your ktichen you're ok.

No, that is a tightening of the 1999 order.

I read it as shifting the emphasis.


| But I don't see what the problem is because the 1999 order applies
to
| feeding animals waste, not to making compost. I am hard pushed to
find
any | connection - unless you keep animals on your land, or you let
your
compost | be fed to other animals. The amendment has changed this to
make it clearer | that it applies to commercial waste and/or farm
animals. I'm sort of | discussing this with Nick at the moment.

Read it again. Look at sections 3 and 5, for example. Non-Vegan
kitchen waste is probably an animal product under the order.

Sorry, I can't see what you mean. I think it all hinges on the
definition
of animal by-products:

From the 1999 order:

'Interpretation and scope

Snip for clarity

At the risk of taking this slightly beyond the realms of gardening.
There
are a number of problems with the legality of compost heaps that we are
now
encountering.

We grow pretty well everything edible and raise pigs, poultry, sheep and
cattle - all on a very small scale.

The reasonable desire to keep animal scraps away from animals, leads
into
some very strange country.

We now have problems keeping a pig and a compost heap. The theory being
that
we might put kitchen waste which might contain scraps which might get to
the
pig. So basically the combination is banned. Pigs or compost heaps, not
both
UNLESS and we are lucky, you have a separate sink away from the kitchen
in
which vegetables are prepared. We are lucky, we do.

I say "pigs" because we are no longer allowed to keep a single sow
(animal
welfare). So that is the end of the cottager's pig. In reality that
means
a
minimum of two sows plus one (spare) and the prospect of up to thirty
plus
piglets per year. We are not commercial, we sell nothing, so this new
legislation is causing very real problems. The combinations of
restrictions
are starting to make our lifestyle impossible.

There is no doubt that quite aside from the silly scare stories in the
newspapers, new rules are now invading territory that was once the
protected
preserve of the amateur.

I can see that being a big problem. Especially as the concepts of keeping
a
few animals for yourself and composting are not from a totally different
planet. Maybe the bit in the amanement applies -where they use the
definiteion of livestock, instead of animal. Livestock being any animals
used for farming. Would your situation be regarded as farming or not? I
expect it would, as I expect Sod's Law to apply wherever possible.

Well, the drafting of all the regulations is pretty anti-amateur. Most
offences are also "criminal." Much is left to the discretion of officials,
many of whom can be pretty unsympathetic on occasions.

Most of the regulations have been though a consultation stage with
"stakeholders" playing a prominent part. Most of these stakeholders are
large commercial organisations. They either forget the small non-businesses
independent man or woman or are pretty openly contemptuous and hostile.

A case in point were the proposals for "fallen stock." As you can imagine
many of our animals are allowed to live out their lives on our premises.
Breeding stock that was born here and given us many offspring become very
much a pet. We don't send them off to slaughter, if it can be avoided
without cruelty.

The first Canadian BSE cow was went for slaughter even though it could not
stand. That's not for us.

Now we are not allowed even to bury a chicken. The government scheme, if it
ever gets going, costs us Pounds 50 a year (the minimum). The maximum for a
3,000 sow factory farm or a massive turkey operation, with many casualties,
is Pounds 200 per year. That is simply not fair treatment.

The regulations are difficult to interpret and always seem to err on the
side of heavy regulation and draconian penalties. The big intensive
operators win.

Now, this will affect very few gardeners. Most smallholders do sell
something, so are some kind of business albeit small. But we sell nothing,
just like the average gardener or allotment holder.

In case, you think all this is pretty academic, we took a call yesterday
from Trading Standards to check their records on what livestock we kept and
to check if we had a licence for mixing feed. We don't, since we now stay
out of potential trouble by buying all our feed commercially.

The days of leaning into the paddock and treating the pig to an apple core
or throwing some scraps of bread and cake to the chickens have gone, it
seems. The exact opposite of what was intended.

Without being an expert on the regulations (who is?) I can see no exemption
for an allotment holder with a few chickens to give their family fresh eggs.

Now everyone will say, "they could not possibly!"

Well they could. A theoretical case can be made because of Salmonella or
Avian Flu for the small amateur, just as for the big intensive operator
selling to the supermarket.

Registration of allotments - and the question do you have any livestock
there? Who is your feed supplier?

I don't want to be alarmist, but the events of the last few years in the
countryside have left many of us badly shaken. Ask them in Devon or Cumbria.

It pays to be vigilant, and not all the scare stories are that wide of the
mark.


--
Pat Gardiner
www.go-self-sufficient.com




Tim.

Tim.

Composting Tea Bags
 

"Tim" wrote in message
news:oprrezn51vwxhha1@localhost...
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:58:49 +0000 (UTC), Pat Gardiner
wrote:


"Tim" wrote in message
news:oprrdo64yqwxhha1@localhost...
On 26 Jun 2003 13:46:11 GMT, Nick Maclaren wrote:


In article oprrdgeij4wxhha1@localhost,
Tim writes:
| | But that was 1999, did they look at the 2001 amendments ? Which
to
my | untrained eye looks like the 1999 Order has been changed to
only
apply to | catering businesses kitchens and farms etc. What the
order
says is that any | waste from COMMERCIAL kitchens can't be
composted.
So
unless you run a | business from your ktichen you're ok.

No, that is a tightening of the 1999 order.

I read it as shifting the emphasis.


| But I don't see what the problem is because the 1999 order applies
to
| feeding animals waste, not to making compost. I am hard pushed to
find
any | connection - unless you keep animals on your land, or you let
your
compost | be fed to other animals. The amendment has changed this to
make it clearer | that it applies to commercial waste and/or farm
animals. I'm sort of | discussing this with Nick at the moment.

Read it again. Look at sections 3 and 5, for example. Non-Vegan
kitchen waste is probably an animal product under the order.

Sorry, I can't see what you mean. I think it all hinges on the
definition
of animal by-products:

From the 1999 order:

'Interpretation and scope

Snip for clarity

At the risk of taking this slightly beyond the realms of gardening.
There
are a number of problems with the legality of compost heaps that we are
now
encountering.

We grow pretty well everything edible and raise pigs, poultry, sheep and
cattle - all on a very small scale.

The reasonable desire to keep animal scraps away from animals, leads
into
some very strange country.

We now have problems keeping a pig and a compost heap. The theory being
that
we might put kitchen waste which might contain scraps which might get to
the
pig. So basically the combination is banned. Pigs or compost heaps, not
both
UNLESS and we are lucky, you have a separate sink away from the kitchen
in
which vegetables are prepared. We are lucky, we do.

I say "pigs" because we are no longer allowed to keep a single sow
(animal
welfare). So that is the end of the cottager's pig. In reality that
means
a
minimum of two sows plus one (spare) and the prospect of up to thirty
plus
piglets per year. We are not commercial, we sell nothing, so this new
legislation is causing very real problems. The combinations of
restrictions
are starting to make our lifestyle impossible.

There is no doubt that quite aside from the silly scare stories in the
newspapers, new rules are now invading territory that was once the
protected
preserve of the amateur.

I can see that being a big problem. Especially as the concepts of keeping
a
few animals for yourself and composting are not from a totally different
planet. Maybe the bit in the amanement applies -where they use the
definiteion of livestock, instead of animal. Livestock being any animals
used for farming. Would your situation be regarded as farming or not? I
expect it would, as I expect Sod's Law to apply wherever possible.

Well, the drafting of all the regulations is pretty anti-amateur. Most
offences are also "criminal." Much is left to the discretion of officials,
many of whom can be pretty unsympathetic on occasions.

Most of the regulations have been though a consultation stage with
"stakeholders" playing a prominent part. Most of these stakeholders are
large commercial organisations. They either forget the small non-businesses
independent man or woman or are pretty openly contemptuous and hostile.

A case in point were the proposals for "fallen stock." As you can imagine
many of our animals are allowed to live out their lives on our premises.
Breeding stock that was born here and given us many offspring become very
much a pet. We don't send them off to slaughter, if it can be avoided
without cruelty.

The first Canadian BSE cow was went for slaughter even though it could not
stand. That's not for us.

Now we are not allowed even to bury a chicken. The government scheme, if it
ever gets going, costs us Pounds 50 a year (the minimum). The maximum for a
3,000 sow factory farm or a massive turkey operation, with many casualties,
is Pounds 200 per year. That is simply not fair treatment.

The regulations are difficult to interpret and always seem to err on the
side of heavy regulation and draconian penalties. The big intensive
operators win.

Now, this will affect very few gardeners. Most smallholders do sell
something, so are some kind of business albeit small. But we sell nothing,
just like the average gardener or allotment holder.

In case, you think all this is pretty academic, we took a call yesterday
from Trading Standards to check their records on what livestock we kept and
to check if we had a licence for mixing feed. We don't, since we now stay
out of potential trouble by buying all our feed commercially.

The days of leaning into the paddock and treating the pig to an apple core
or throwing some scraps of bread and cake to the chickens have gone, it
seems. The exact opposite of what was intended.

Without being an expert on the regulations (who is?) I can see no exemption
for an allotment holder with a few chickens to give their family fresh eggs.

Now everyone will say, "they could not possibly!"

Well they could. A theoretical case can be made because of Salmonella or
Avian Flu for the small amateur, just as for the big intensive operator
selling to the supermarket.

Registration of allotments - and the question do you have any livestock
there? Who is your feed supplier?

I don't want to be alarmist, but the events of the last few years in the
countryside have left many of us badly shaken. Ask them in Devon or Cumbria.

It pays to be vigilant, and not all the scare stories are that wide of the
mark.


--
Pat Gardiner
www.go-self-sufficient.com




Tim.

Tim.

Composting Tea Bags
 

"Tim" wrote in message
news:oprrezn51vwxhha1@localhost...
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:58:49 +0000 (UTC), Pat Gardiner
wrote:


"Tim" wrote in message
news:oprrdo64yqwxhha1@localhost...
On 26 Jun 2003 13:46:11 GMT, Nick Maclaren wrote:


In article oprrdgeij4wxhha1@localhost,
Tim writes:
| | But that was 1999, did they look at the 2001 amendments ? Which
to
my | untrained eye looks like the 1999 Order has been changed to
only
apply to | catering businesses kitchens and farms etc. What the
order
says is that any | waste from COMMERCIAL kitchens can't be
composted.
So
unless you run a | business from your ktichen you're ok.

No, that is a tightening of the 1999 order.

I read it as shifting the emphasis.


| But I don't see what the problem is because the 1999 order applies
to
| feeding animals waste, not to making compost. I am hard pushed to
find
any | connection - unless you keep animals on your land, or you let
your
compost | be fed to other animals. The amendment has changed this to
make it clearer | that it applies to commercial waste and/or farm
animals. I'm sort of | discussing this with Nick at the moment.

Read it again. Look at sections 3 and 5, for example. Non-Vegan
kitchen waste is probably an animal product under the order.

Sorry, I can't see what you mean. I think it all hinges on the
definition
of animal by-products:

From the 1999 order:

'Interpretation and scope

Snip for clarity

At the risk of taking this slightly beyond the realms of gardening.
There
are a number of problems with the legality of compost heaps that we are
now
encountering.

We grow pretty well everything edible and raise pigs, poultry, sheep and
cattle - all on a very small scale.

The reasonable desire to keep animal scraps away from animals, leads
into
some very strange country.

We now have problems keeping a pig and a compost heap. The theory being
that
we might put kitchen waste which might contain scraps which might get to
the
pig. So basically the combination is banned. Pigs or compost heaps, not
both
UNLESS and we are lucky, you have a separate sink away from the kitchen
in
which vegetables are prepared. We are lucky, we do.

I say "pigs" because we are no longer allowed to keep a single sow
(animal
welfare). So that is the end of the cottager's pig. In reality that
means
a
minimum of two sows plus one (spare) and the prospect of up to thirty
plus
piglets per year. We are not commercial, we sell nothing, so this new
legislation is causing very real problems. The combinations of
restrictions
are starting to make our lifestyle impossible.

There is no doubt that quite aside from the silly scare stories in the
newspapers, new rules are now invading territory that was once the
protected
preserve of the amateur.

I can see that being a big problem. Especially as the concepts of keeping
a
few animals for yourself and composting are not from a totally different
planet. Maybe the bit in the amanement applies -where they use the
definiteion of livestock, instead of animal. Livestock being any animals
used for farming. Would your situation be regarded as farming or not? I
expect it would, as I expect Sod's Law to apply wherever possible.

Well, the drafting of all the regulations is pretty anti-amateur. Most
offences are also "criminal." Much is left to the discretion of officials,
many of whom can be pretty unsympathetic on occasions.

Most of the regulations have been though a consultation stage with
"stakeholders" playing a prominent part. Most of these stakeholders are
large commercial organisations. They either forget the small non-businesses
independent man or woman or are pretty openly contemptuous and hostile.

A case in point were the proposals for "fallen stock." As you can imagine
many of our animals are allowed to live out their lives on our premises.
Breeding stock that was born here and given us many offspring become very
much a pet. We don't send them off to slaughter, if it can be avoided
without cruelty.

The first Canadian BSE cow was went for slaughter even though it could not
stand. That's not for us.

Now we are not allowed even to bury a chicken. The government scheme, if it
ever gets going, costs us Pounds 50 a year (the minimum). The maximum for a
3,000 sow factory farm or a massive turkey operation, with many casualties,
is Pounds 200 per year. That is simply not fair treatment.

The regulations are difficult to interpret and always seem to err on the
side of heavy regulation and draconian penalties. The big intensive
operators win.

Now, this will affect very few gardeners. Most smallholders do sell
something, so are some kind of business albeit small. But we sell nothing,
just like the average gardener or allotment holder.

In case, you think all this is pretty academic, we took a call yesterday
from Trading Standards to check their records on what livestock we kept and
to check if we had a licence for mixing feed. We don't, since we now stay
out of potential trouble by buying all our feed commercially.

The days of leaning into the paddock and treating the pig to an apple core
or throwing some scraps of bread and cake to the chickens have gone, it
seems. The exact opposite of what was intended.

Without being an expert on the regulations (who is?) I can see no exemption
for an allotment holder with a few chickens to give their family fresh eggs.

Now everyone will say, "they could not possibly!"

Well they could. A theoretical case can be made because of Salmonella or
Avian Flu for the small amateur, just as for the big intensive operator
selling to the supermarket.

Registration of allotments - and the question do you have any livestock
there? Who is your feed supplier?

I don't want to be alarmist, but the events of the last few years in the
countryside have left many of us badly shaken. Ask them in Devon or Cumbria.

It pays to be vigilant, and not all the scare stories are that wide of the
mark.


--
Pat Gardiner
www.go-self-sufficient.com




Tim.

Tim.

Composting Tea Bags
 

"Tim" wrote in message
news:oprrezn51vwxhha1@localhost...
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 19:58:49 +0000 (UTC), Pat Gardiner
wrote:


"Tim" wrote in message
news:oprrdo64yqwxhha1@localhost...
On 26 Jun 2003 13:46:11 GMT, Nick Maclaren wrote:


In article oprrdgeij4wxhha1@localhost,
Tim writes:
| | But that was 1999, did they look at the 2001 amendments ? Which
to
my | untrained eye looks like the 1999 Order has been changed to
only
apply to | catering businesses kitchens and farms etc. What the
order
says is that any | waste from COMMERCIAL kitchens can't be
composted.
So
unless you run a | business from your ktichen you're ok.

No, that is a tightening of the 1999 order.

I read it as shifting the emphasis.


| But I don't see what the problem is because the 1999 order applies
to
| feeding animals waste, not to making compost. I am hard pushed to
find
any | connection - unless you keep animals on your land, or you let
your
compost | be fed to other animals. The amendment has changed this to
make it clearer | that it applies to commercial waste and/or farm
animals. I'm sort of | discussing this with Nick at the moment.

Read it again. Look at sections 3 and 5, for example. Non-Vegan
kitchen waste is probably an animal product under the order.

Sorry, I can't see what you mean. I think it all hinges on the
definition
of animal by-products:

From the 1999 order:

'Interpretation and scope

Snip for clarity

At the risk of taking this slightly beyond the realms of gardening.
There
are a number of problems with the legality of compost heaps that we are
now
encountering.

We grow pretty well everything edible and raise pigs, poultry, sheep and
cattle - all on a very small scale.

The reasonable desire to keep animal scraps away from animals, leads
into
some very strange country.

We now have problems keeping a pig and a compost heap. The theory being
that
we might put kitchen waste which might contain scraps which might get to
the
pig. So basically the combination is banned. Pigs or compost heaps, not
both
UNLESS and we are lucky, you have a separate sink away from the kitchen
in
which vegetables are prepared. We are lucky, we do.

I say "pigs" because we are no longer allowed to keep a single sow
(animal
welfare). So that is the end of the cottager's pig. In reality that
means
a
minimum of two sows plus one (spare) and the prospect of up to thirty
plus
piglets per year. We are not commercial, we sell nothing, so this new
legislation is causing very real problems. The combinations of
restrictions
are starting to make our lifestyle impossible.

There is no doubt that quite aside from the silly scare stories in the
newspapers, new rules are now invading territory that was once the
protected
preserve of the amateur.

I can see that being a big problem. Especially as the concepts of keeping
a
few animals for yourself and composting are not from a totally different
planet. Maybe the bit in the amanement applies -where they use the
definiteion of livestock, instead of animal. Livestock being any animals
used for farming. Would your situation be regarded as farming or not? I
expect it would, as I expect Sod's Law to apply wherever possible.

Well, the drafting of all the regulations is pretty anti-amateur. Most
offences are also "criminal." Much is left to the discretion of officials,
many of whom can be pretty unsympathetic on occasions.

Most of the regulations have been though a consultation stage with
"stakeholders" playing a prominent part. Most of these stakeholders are
large commercial organisations. They either forget the small non-businesses
independent man or woman or are pretty openly contemptuous and hostile.

A case in point were the proposals for "fallen stock." As you can imagine
many of our animals are allowed to live out their lives on our premises.
Breeding stock that was born here and given us many offspring become very
much a pet. We don't send them off to slaughter, if it can be avoided
without cruelty.

The first Canadian BSE cow was went for slaughter even though it could not
stand. That's not for us.

Now we are not allowed even to bury a chicken. The government scheme, if it
ever gets going, costs us Pounds 50 a year (the minimum). The maximum for a
3,000 sow factory farm or a massive turkey operation, with many casualties,
is Pounds 200 per year. That is simply not fair treatment.

The regulations are difficult to interpret and always seem to err on the
side of heavy regulation and draconian penalties. The big intensive
operators win.

Now, this will affect very few gardeners. Most smallholders do sell
something, so are some kind of business albeit small. But we sell nothing,
just like the average gardener or allotment holder.

In case, you think all this is pretty academic, we took a call yesterday
from Trading Standards to check their records on what livestock we kept and
to check if we had a licence for mixing feed. We don't, since we now stay
out of potential trouble by buying all our feed commercially.

The days of leaning into the paddock and treating the pig to an apple core
or throwing some scraps of bread and cake to the chickens have gone, it
seems. The exact opposite of what was intended.

Without being an expert on the regulations (who is?) I can see no exemption
for an allotment holder with a few chickens to give their family fresh eggs.

Now everyone will say, "they could not possibly!"

Well they could. A theoretical case can be made because of Salmonella or
Avian Flu for the small amateur, just as for the big intensive operator
selling to the supermarket.

Registration of allotments - and the question do you have any livestock
there? Who is your feed supplier?

I don't want to be alarmist, but the events of the last few years in the
countryside have left many of us badly shaken. Ask them in Devon or Cumbria.

It pays to be vigilant, and not all the scare stories are that wide of the
mark.


--
Pat Gardiner
www.go-self-sufficient.com




Tim.

Tim.

Composting Tea Bags
 

In article ,
"Pat Gardiner" writes:
|
| The days of leaning into the paddock and treating the pig to an apple core
| or throwing some scraps of bread and cake to the chickens have gone, it
| seems. The exact opposite of what was intended.

The exact opposite of what was intended by the EU. I don't think
that Whitehall intended anything different. Small organisations
and private business-like activities are regarded as a nuisance,
to be actively discouraged even when not explicitly forbidden.
This has been the de facto policy for at least 50 years.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Composting Tea Bags
 

Composting Tea Bags
 

"martin" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:06:21 +0100, "Brian Watson"
wrote:

Try Daily Mail/Telegraphs archives. Both are famous for this sort of
"silly
season" EU stuff.

Do they actually believe the rubbish they print?

Some will.

But their intention is to preach to the converted and the gullible.
--
Brian
"Stuck down a hole, in the fog, in the middle of the night, with an owl."

Composting Tea Bags
 

On Sat, 28 Jun 2003 10:54:03 +0100, "Brian Watson"
wrote:


"martin" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 09:06:21 +0100, "Brian Watson"
wrote:

Try Daily Mail/Telegraphs archives. Both are famous for this sort of
"silly
season" EU stuff.

Do they actually believe the rubbish they print?

Some will.

But their intention is to preach to the converted and the gullible.

and mainly to pump the newspaper owner's idiot biases into the naive.
--
martin

Composting Tea Bags
 

In article , Janet Baraclough
writes


Even totally mad people can distinguish teabags from disposable nappies.

(Waits to be told that in Cambridge/Africa all the tea tastes like pee
and all the babies have boiled bottoms.)

Janet.

But it might explain my sister's tea!
--
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk