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  #16   Report Post  
Old 25-07-2003, 02:32 AM
Steve Harris
 
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In article ,
(Chris J Dixon) wrote:

follow the BBC link to
http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/farmers...ucts_with_unsu
pported_actives.htm


Yes but what does it actually mean?????

Steve Harris - Cheltenham - Real address steve AT netservs DOT com

  #17   Report Post  
Old 25-07-2003, 10:32 AM
Victoria Clare
 
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"anton" wrote in news:bfnr1t$7$1
@hercules.btinternet.com:

That's not quite making the situation clear, though, is it? He
and you think that 'pests are not enough of a problem to put poisons into
the environment'. So don't do it yourselves.
These measures however, mean _everybody_ is banned from
doing so, regardless of whether they agree or not. That's
a horse of a different colour.


Um. The biggest problems I have ever had gardening organically were when I
had a small garden, surrounded by other small gardens where gardeners were
enthusiastically using (overusing, in my view) pesticides and herbicides,
where the council 'helped out' by going round spraying weedkiller on the
verges. The previous occupants of my garden had also used weedkillers and
pesticides freely.

I believe that I had problems because pest predators could not survive on
my tiny patch, whereas pests could :-(

I think gardening organically is easier in large areas that support healthy
predator numbers, which establish over several years. Where there are many
small gardens, and people move house regularly, if some gardeners have the
choice of using pesticides, the other gardeners may lose their own right to
choose.

This isn't to say I support things being banned, necessarily, but it's a
point that I think is worth considering (the 'passive pesticide' argument?)

Victoria
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Old 25-07-2003, 06:42 PM
Rod
 
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"Victoria Clare" wrote in message Um. The biggest problems I have ever had gardening
organically were when I
had a small garden, surrounded by other small gardens where gardeners were
enthusiastically using (overusing, in my view) pesticides and herbicides,
where the council 'helped out' by going round spraying weedkiller on the
verges. The previous occupants of my garden had also used weedkillers and
pesticides freely.

I believe that I had problems because pest predators could not survive on
my tiny patch, whereas pests could :-(

I think gardening organically is easier in large areas that support healthy
predator numbers, which establish over several years. Where there are many
small gardens, and people move house regularly, if some gardeners have the
choice of using pesticides, the other gardeners may lose their own right to
choose.

This isn't to say I support things being banned, necessarily, but it's a
point that I think is worth considering (the 'passive pesticide' argument?)

I think there's something in this. Try growing top fruit organically in Kent ferinstance. Even here in N Wales on my
quite big patch (25acres) well away from other gardens and miles away from any significant commercial horticulture, it
took a few years to establish our almost organic veg and fruit production.

Rod


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Old 25-07-2003, 10:22 PM
Serendipity
 
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Xref: kermit uk.rec.gardening:155808

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 17:57:42 +0000 (UTC), "Paul Segynowycz"
wrote:

I was listening to You & Yours this lunchtime and caught a bit of an article
about EU banning certain Pesticides & hebicides from Today. Does anyone know
what the list is?

As for that Monty Don - he has gone well down in my estimation, positively
enthusing about the demise of chemicals. He may have the time to hand pick
weeds and insects and go organic, but I'm sure that i have not.

________________________________________________

I can see what Monty means, and would like to agree with his
sentiments were it not for the fact that my garden suffers from
Leaf Tree Miner ( I don't know which type) which disfigures
my fruit trees, and my ornamentals. I'm now unable to purchase
anything which gets rid of them.

Likewise Armitillox, which I've used for years in cleaning nasties
from specialised soil beds.

These Eurocrats are a ruddy nuisance.
______________________________________


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Old 25-07-2003, 11:43 PM
anton
 
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Victoria Clare wrote in message ...
"anton" wrote in news:bfnr1t$7$1
:

That's not quite making the situation clear, though, is it? He
and you think that 'pests are not enough of a problem to put poisons into
the environment'. So don't do it yourselves.
These measures however, mean _everybody_ is banned from
doing so, regardless of whether they agree or not. That's
a horse of a different colour.


Um. The biggest problems I have ever had gardening organically were when I
had a small garden, surrounded by other small gardens where gardeners were
enthusiastically using (overusing, in my view) pesticides and herbicides,
where the council 'helped out' by going round spraying weedkiller on the
verges. The previous occupants of my garden had also used weedkillers and
pesticides freely.

I believe that I had problems because pest predators could not survive on
my tiny patch, whereas pests could :-(

I think gardening organically is easier in large areas that support healthy
predator numbers, which establish over several years. Where there are many
small gardens, and people move house regularly, if some gardeners have the
choice of using pesticides, the other gardeners may lose their own right to
choose.



To choose- what other people use in their gardens? I
understand the point you're making, but similar considerations
apply to trees blowing leaves into other's gardens; people owning cats;
other people's hedges creating shade or dryness.
Our population densities mean that we all have effects on the
lives of many others, but trying to justify legislation on the basis
that you have the 'right to choose' that my garden is managed
in such a way as to maximise the predator count in your garden
seems pretty far-fetched to me.

This isn't to say I support things being banned, necessarily, but it's a
point that I think is worth considering (the 'passive pesticide' argument?)



Along with the 'passive pollen' argument, or the 'passive lack
of wind shelter' argument? How dare my neighbour allow
cold winds from the North & East to blow unobstructed across
his garden onto mine? There ought to be a law against it!

--
Anton




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Old 26-07-2003, 09:22 AM
anton
 
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Alan Gould wrote in message ...
In article , anton
writes


snip
The recent 'ban' on some chemicals popularly used in gardening is not
being introduced out of any support for organic methods, but on safety
grounds.


Mmm. Safety may be the claimed reason. However, the effect
of this and many other bits of EU legislation is to raise the
costs of entry into certain markets, and price out less usual
or specialist products. The effect is to ensure that only a few
large companies supply the market- in this case for garden
chemicals.

In the past, many chemicals have been similarly banned e.g.
aldrin and dieldrin to name but two, but the effect was to encourage the
introduction of other chemicals in their place. There is an ongoing
demand for such products by gardeners who choose that style of
gardening, and commercial interests see that the demand is met.



I think it's nonsense to describe use of all the various types of
garden chemicals as 'that style of gardening'. Somebody may
use a fungicide on his roses, or feed his tomatoes, or do
as I do and use glyphosate twice a year around the base of
fruit trees. Each person has their own style of gardening.

A lifetime of organic gardening without using manufactured chemicals
proves to me that they are not necessary.


Agreed- they probably aren't necessary. However, they
can be very useful, imho.

We currently garden two acres
at age 75+70 and we could not cope with all the problems brought about
by chemical gardening.


Problems caused by chemical gardening? I haven't had any,
unless you count the temporary defoliation of a young fruit tree
when I got impatient with painting alcohol on each little cluster of woolly
aphis. That's not much in ten years. Admittedly, I'm
only a very small user of garden chemicals, but I think that demonstrates
the error of trying to put the non-organic
world into a single 'chemical' camp.

On the other hand, weedkilling at the base of trees avoids
a lot of strimming or laying down of unsightly carpet squares;
weedkilling the gravel drive has stopped weeds colonising and destroying it;
painting alcohol on woolly aphis has kept the
problem under control on some young fruit trees, sodium
chlorate has allowed me to go back to bare earth in order
to clear some areas around greenhouses that were covered
with broken glass. I could not have done what I've done here
is so few hours without the use of chemicals.

--
Anton


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Old 26-07-2003, 10:02 AM
David Hill
 
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It was the banning of aldrin that has lead to the explosion of the problems
with Vine weevil

--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk



  #23   Report Post  
Old 26-07-2003, 03:02 PM
Alan Gould
 
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In article , anton
writes

Problems caused by chemical gardening? I haven't had any,
unless you count the temporary defoliation of a young fruit tree
when I got impatient with painting alcohol on each little cluster of woolly
aphis. That's not much in ten years. Admittedly, I'm
only a very small user of garden chemicals, but I think that demonstrates
the error of trying to put the non-organic
world into a single 'chemical' camp.

I used the expression chemical to describe non-organic practices.
I agree that it is a loose term, but then so is organic, both styles
having many variations. I don't see any camps in recreational gardening.
Each of us choose our own ways and take on some of other people's ideas
as we see appropriate. In urg discussions, both chemical and organic
have recognised gardening contexts which can be assumed to be in use
unless otherwise stated. They both have several other dictionary
definitions of course, used for differing purposes.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.
  #24   Report Post  
Old 26-07-2003, 03:02 PM
Alan Gould
 
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In article , David Hill [email protected]
nurseries.freeserve.co.uk writes
It was the banning of aldrin that has lead to the explosion of the problems
with Vine weevil

I didn't know that David. Do you have any reliable info on it?
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.
  #25   Report Post  
Old 26-07-2003, 04:04 PM
Paul Kelly
 
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In ,
Alan Gould typed:
In article , David Hill
[email protected] nurseries.freeserve.co.uk writes
It was the banning of aldrin that has lead to the explosion of the
problems with Vine weevil

I didn't know that David. Do you have any reliable info on it?


http://www.cyclamen.org/vineweev.htm

gives some good info

http://www.weevil.co.uk/info/history.htm

show a plot of qureies to rhs re Vine evil





pk





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Old 26-07-2003, 04:22 PM
David Hill
 
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".........It was the banning of organochlorine pesticides such as aldrin
that arrested the catastrophic population declines of assorted birds of prey
and otters, amongst others ......."

Believe it or not I would agree with you to a very large extent, though like
so many things it was ignorance that was the real problem.
We were told that it was best to spray alternate weeks one week
insecticide, next fungicide through the life of almost all food crops, so
that is what we did.......because there was no way that "Mrs Public" wanted
to find any sort of pest or blemish on her fruit or veg (Not so different
today, but now more is sprayed by growers in 3rd world countries that we
import from so our conscience is clear).
It seems that in our culture it is all or nothing. Several chemicals could
have been kept as chemicals of last resort.
With today's knowledge of the effects most growers are much more
responsible, and the cost is now a good limiting factor.
In those days we had Ministry Advisors visiting on a regular basis who would
advise on most things including pest control.
Now they are a distant memory.
Yes we do have more birds, such as Peregrines but now they are being shot
and poisoned by "Bird fanciers, mostly those who race Pigeons.... we have
lost at least 6 in the last 3 years where I am.
Now if I could find something to spray my cabbage to get rid of
pigeons......................

--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk



  #27   Report Post  
Old 26-07-2003, 06:35 PM
Rodger Whitlock
 
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On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 09:46:24 +0100, David Hill wrote:

It was the banning of aldrin that has lead to the explosion of the problems
with Vine weevil


David, I'm quite sure that that's a gross oversimplification. In
chronological terms, I won't argue with you, but in terms of
cause and effect, I have to raise an eyebrow or three at this
analysis. There are all sorts of possible causes for the Vine
Weevil Explosion, and I'd put my money on the idea that all of
these causes have played significant roles.

Aldrin only came on the scene after the second world war,
probably in the mid-1950's. What was the vine weevil situation
like before aldrin was available?

I've read that the real culprit in the Vine Weevil Explosion was
the widespread adoption of peat-based composts instead of real
soil for potting, though I can't assess the validity of this
observation.

Another possibility is that overuse of petrochemical-derived
pesticides (not necessarily aldrin itself) eradicated the natural
predators of vine weevils, allowing their population to explode
when aldrin was taken off the market.

Yet another possibility: there has been no Vine Weevil Explosion;
it's just that we grow many more plants susceptible to them than
we used to. Cyclamen species, for example, are far more widely
grown now than they were just twenty years ago.


Footnote: has anyone else noticed that "weevil" is a conflation
of "we evil"?



--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
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Old 26-07-2003, 06:35 PM
martin
 
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On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 16:11:00 GMT,
(Rodger Whitlock) wrote:

Footnote: has anyone else noticed that "weevil" is a conflation
of "we evil"?


and Liv Ewe? sheepish grin
--
martin
  #29   Report Post  
Old 26-07-2003, 07:02 PM
David Hill
 
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"..... I've read that the real culprit in the Vine Weevil Explosion was the
widespread adoption of peat-based composts instead of real soil for potting,
though I can't assess the validity of this observation. ...."

Once again you hit the nail on the head.

Vine weevil have been around for the last 100 years and more, but in those
days plants from nurseries were sold in natural soil, sometimes in John
Innes compost where the soil was sterilised by heating or in the case of
trees, shrubs and many perennial plants, bare rooted in the Autumn and
Winter, so it wasn't very easy to spread the pest around, and the bulk of
sales were "local".

With the advent of peat based compost (In the early days referred to as U.C.
compost after the University of California who formulated the first peat
compost) this was followed by Fisons Levington compost and then everyone had
their own brands.
This was the time when container plants started to boom, so any infestation
was shifter all round the UK easily and quickly.
At this time Aldrin was banned so there was nothing to dose the consignments
with to kill weevil, and it was not really till the introduction of Suscon
Green that anything effective was available to the trade, a gap of nearly 30
years in which time our favourite pest had a population explosion.
We have always grown plants that weevil love, Strawberries, Polyanthus (When
I worked on the parks in the early 60's we used thousands of them in winter
bedding, but propagated our own, mostly by division. The plants being lifted
after flowering and being divided and planted out into holding beds for the
summer) Hosta and many more, cyclamen were grown by the thousand but in soil
based compost and in those days were grown cool and took 15 months to
produce a finished plant.
Also in those days we used to have a lot more Primula varieties used as
house plants, Obconica, Malacoides, Senensis etc all of which can be hit by
weevil
--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk



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Old 26-07-2003, 08:13 PM
Paul Kelly
 
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In ,
David Hill typed:
"..... I've read that the real culprit in the Vine Weevil Explosion
was the widespread adoption of peat-based composts instead of real
soil for potting, though I can't assess the validity of this
observation. ...."

Once again you hit the nail on the head.



Not quite..... in my understanding it was more the switch to pot growing
rather then og that protected the beastie form its natural predators (ground
beetles)

Probable in fact a combination of the two

pk




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