In article , Nick Maclaren
writes
No. It is neither organic, nor legal.

Are you using the word "organic" in the sense of Organic(TM)?

It is assuredly (a) organic in the chemical sense, (b) organic in
the sense that it is a natural plant extract, (c) organic in the
sense that it is ecologically almost harmless and probably organic
in other senses, too.

Noted.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Michael Berridge wrote:

Nick Maclaren wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Steve Harris) writes:
| In article ,
| (Alan Gould) wrote:
|
| A few fag ends infused in water overnight would make a very
| effective insecticide, but it caused a lot of health and safety
| problems.
|
| But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-)

Organic, biodegradable and generally ecologically good. Not so
safe for humans, though ....

Nicotine in itself is not that harmful, otherwise you wouldn't get
nicotine patches to help you kick the smoking habit. It is the by
products of setting light to it, and all the other chemicals that have
been added, that cause the problems.

Er, no. Nicotine is extremely poisonous, and it is very easy to take
a fatal overdose if you extract it from tobacco.

A large fraction of the usual garden plants (the majority?), not counting
the vegetable garden, is poisonous. I don't go around eating and drinking
extracts from them, and I see no reason why they should be banned.

[Franz Heymann]

In article ,
"Franz Heymann" writes:
|
| A large fraction of the usual garden plants (the majority?), not counting
| the vegetable garden, is poisonous. I don't go around eating and drinking
| extracts from them, and I see no reason why they should be banned.

Actually a minority, and there is little difference between the flower
and vegetable gardens. The main reason for banning such things is
that bureaucrats don't like uppity peasants.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 13 Aug 2003 07:49:34 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:


In article ,
"Franz Heymann" writes:
|
| A large fraction of the usual garden plants (the majority?), not counting
| the vegetable garden, is poisonous. I don't go around eating and drinking
| extracts from them, and I see no reason why they should be banned.

Actually a minority, and there is little difference between the flower
and vegetable gardens. The main reason for banning such things is
that bureaucrats don't like uppity peasants.

it's not, but if believing that makes you feel good............
--
Martin

In article ,
martin writes:
| |
| | A large fraction of the usual garden plants (the majority?), not counting
| | the vegetable garden, is poisonous. I don't go around eating and drinking
| | extracts from them, and I see no reason why they should be banned.
|
| Actually a minority, and there is little difference between the flower
| and vegetable gardens. The main reason for banning such things is
| that bureaucrats don't like uppity peasants.
|
| it's not, but if believing that makes you feel good............

Would you like to propose your hypothesis, so that we can all
have a good laugh?

Please remember that, in science, a hypothesis must fit the facts
to be worth taking seriously.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:39 +0100 (BST), Steve Harris wrote:

In article ,
(Alan Gould) wrote:

A few fag ends infused in water overnight would make a very
effective insecticide, but it caused a lot of health and safety
problems.

But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-)

Please dismiss the word "organic" from your vocabulary as regards
both gardening (and farming) and chemical identity.

Technically speaking, any chemical compound that contains at
least one carbon atom is "organic". The category embraces
everything from carbon dioxide and sugar (both lethal in large
enough doses) to virulent poisons of which small doses can kill
you in a few seconds.

Nicotine, the active insecticidal compound found in tobacco, has
a very high level of toxicity for mammals. You are a mammal. It
is much less safe for you than the usual non-organic (sensu
confusu) insecticides.

The fact that it is derived directly from a natural source in no
way makes a solution of cigarette butts a safe insecticide.

To replace "organic" in reference to horticulture goings on, use
the phrase "free of petrochemical derivatives not occurring in
nature" and you will be more accurate and focussed in your
objections -- which, I might add, I am in reasonable agreement
with.


--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

A few fag ends infused in water overnight would make a very
effective insecticide, but it caused a lot of health and safety
problems.

But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-)

Please dismiss the word "organic" from your vocabulary as regards
both gardening (and farming) and chemical identity.

Technically speaking, any chemical compound that contains at
least one carbon atom is "organic". The category embraces
everything from carbon dioxide and sugar (both lethal in large
enough doses) to virulent poisons of which small doses can kill
you in a few seconds.

No! Really?


To replace "organic" in reference to horticulture goings on, use
the phrase "free of petrochemical derivatives not occurring in
nature"

Oh come on!

Some usages of words we have to accept according to context. This is a
gardening group.

Mary

In article , Mary Fisher
writes

Some usages of words we have to accept according to context. This is a
gardening group.

Very good point Mary. In this group references to 'organic' are assumed
to be about organic gardening practices unless otherwise indicated.

Urg has a FAQ on the subject of organic gardening at:
http://www.nugget.demon.co.uk/MetaFA...gardening.html
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

In message , Michael
Berridge writes

Nick Maclaren wrote in message ...

In article ,
(Steve Harris) writes:
| In article ,
| (Alan Gould) wrote:
|
| A few fag ends infused in water overnight would make a very
| effective insecticide, but it caused a lot of health and safety
| problems.
|
| But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-)

Organic, biodegradable and generally ecologically good. Not so
safe for humans, though ....


Nicotine in itself is not that harmful, otherwise you wouldn't get
nicotine patches to help you kick the smoking habit. It is the by
products of setting light to it, and all the other chemicals that have
been added, that cause the problems.

Nicotine is a remarkably deadly poison! You can just about extract LD50
for humans from a couple of cigarettes using the right solvents. What
protects smokers is that burning is a very inefficient way to absorb it.
And addict patches contain only tiny amounts of the active ingredient.

As an insecticide it also had the annoying problem of frequently being
contaminated with tobacco mosaic virus. And despite it's name the TMV is
rather promiscuous about the plants it will infect. In the days when
nicotine was still licenced for greenhouse use it caused serious
operator casualties. Mistakes with nicotine extract could be severely
punished because of its high mammalian toxicity and skin penetration.

Regards,
--
Martin Brown

"Rodger Whitlock" wrote in
message ...
On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:39 +0100 (BST), Steve Harris wrote:

In article ,
(Alan Gould) wrote:

A few fag ends infused in water overnight would make a very
effective insecticide, but it caused a lot of health and safety
problems.

But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-)

Please dismiss the word "organic" from your vocabulary as regards
both gardening (and farming) and chemical identity.

Technically speaking, any chemical compound that contains at
least one carbon atom is "organic". The category embraces
everything from carbon dioxide and sugar (both lethal in large
enough doses) to virulent poisons of which small doses can kill
you in a few seconds.

Nicotine, the active insecticidal compound found in tobacco, has
a very high level of toxicity for mammals. You are a mammal. It
is much less safe for you than the usual non-organic (sensu
confusu) insecticides.

The fact that it is derived directly from a natural source in no
way makes a solution of cigarette butts a safe insecticide.

To replace "organic" in reference to horticulture goings on, use
the phrase "free of petrochemical derivatives not occurring in
nature" and you will be more accurate and focussed in your
objections -- which, I might add, I am in reasonable agreement
with.

At last someone has said it straight out in this ng. Folk should realise
that it is quite silly to use the term "organic" versus "inorganic" in the
contexts in which they are commonly used in agri- and horticulture. The
more sensible dichotomy is between *beneficient* and *deleterious*
substances. Both "organic" and "inorganic" substances in use in
horticulture have examples in both camps.

If a chemical does a lot of good and a minimum of harm, I will gladly use
it, whether it is correctly or incorrectly classified as "organic" or
"inorganic".

[Franz Heymann]

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
t...



A few fag ends infused in water overnight would make a very
effective insecticide, but it caused a lot of health and safety
problems.

But surely this insecticide is pretty organic? :-)

Please dismiss the word "organic" from your vocabulary as regards
both gardening (and farming) and chemical identity.

Technically speaking, any chemical compound that contains at
least one carbon atom is "organic". The category embraces
everything from carbon dioxide and sugar (both lethal in large
enough doses) to virulent poisons of which small doses can kill
you in a few seconds.

No! Really?

Yes, really.

To replace "organic" in reference to horticulture goings on, use
the phrase "free of petrochemical derivatives not occurring in
nature"

Oh come on!

The sentence to which you are objecting is quite strictly correct.


Some usages of words we have to accept according to context. This is a
gardening group.

Gardeners should realise that they frequently get their knickers in a twist
through the misuse of terms which have prior definitions differing from
those they *think* are correct. It has, for instance, occurred in this very
thread. "Organic" itself is a case in point. There is a great tendency to
call "beneficient" chemicals "organic" and others "inorganic".

I have just rechecked the definition of the term "organic" in the Penguin
Dictionary of Chemistry.
".........Organic chemistry is now the study of the compounds of carbon,
whether they be isolated from natural sources or synthesised in the
laboratory.........."

[Franz Heymann]

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:20:10 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:

Gardeners should realise that they frequently get their knickers in a twist
through the misuse of terms which have prior definitions differing from
those they *think* are correct. It has, for instance, occurred in this very
thread. "Organic" itself is a case in point. There is a great tendency to
call "beneficient" chemicals "organic" and others "inorganic".

It helps to sell organic food at vast prices to the naive, who think
that they are getting something clean and natural, rather than just
more stuff sprayed with approved "organic" chemicals.
--
Martin

"martin" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:20:10 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:

Gardeners should realise that they frequently get their knickers in a
twist
through the misuse of terms which have prior definitions differing from
those they *think* are correct. It has, for instance, occurred in this
very
thread. "Organic" itself is a case in point. There is a great tendency
to
call "beneficient" chemicals "organic" and others "inorganic".

It helps to sell organic food at vast prices to the naive, who think
that they are getting something clean and natural, rather than just
more stuff sprayed with approved "organic" chemicals.

Indeed. I wish I could make my better half understand that.

[Franz Heymann]

On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:15:29 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"martin" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:20:10 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:

Gardeners should realise that they frequently get their knickers in a
twist
through the misuse of terms which have prior definitions differing from
those they *think* are correct. It has, for instance, occurred in this
very
thread. "Organic" itself is a case in point. There is a great tendency
to
call "beneficient" chemicals "organic" and others "inorganic".

It helps to sell organic food at vast prices to the naive, who think
that they are getting something clean and natural, rather than just
more stuff sprayed with approved "organic" chemicals.

Indeed. I wish I could make my better half understand that.

There was a very good program on BBC about it.
According to them the Organic Food Industry have a large book full of
approved alternative natural chemicals. Copper was the alternative
thing to put on potatoes.
--
Martin

Gardeners should realise that they frequently get their knickers in a
twist

It seems that you're the one with twisted knickers. We all know what's meant
without being pedantic.



I have just rechecked the definition of the term "organic" in the Penguin
Dictionary of Chemistry.
".........Organic chemistry is now the study of the compounds of carbon,
whether they be isolated from natural sources or synthesised in the
laboratory.........."

As a one-time organic chemist I know that.

You shouldn't make assumptions.

Mary

[Franz Heymann]