"Franz Heymann" wrote in message ...
"Jane Ransom" wrote in message
...
In article , Franz Heymann notfranz.
writes

Why has the concept disappeared from the scene?

Possibly because people realised that, to root cuttings, you don't need
gel or rooting hormones or anything else. All you need to do is do it at
the right time in plain ordinary soil - well compost and sand if you
want to be really finickity!!!!!!

Many years ago I did a trial run, rooting Lithospermum cuttings in a gel,
cutting compost, sharp sand and garden soil. The samples were not large
enough to make a quantitative comparison, but for what it is worth, the gel
came out best and the garden soil was worst. What I found most attractive
about the gel was that the cuttings needed no attention at all other than
looking to see if they had rooted. Moreover, this inspection could be done
without disturbing the cuttings in any way.

It occurred to me that one ought to try and replace the commercial gel with
a thick wallpaper paste, made up with water plus a few drops of Benlate
sterilising agent and a drop or two of liquid rooting hormone. Somehow,
there were always something else to do, and this experiment was never done.
Perhaps one of our readers is sufficiently experimentally minded to give it
a try.

I was always put off trying it because I feared the anti-fungal agents
in the wallpaper paste might kill or weaken the roots, and because of
what Kay mentioned: surely this is just an extension of rooting in
water, with the usual attendant difficulties of transfer. You may get
some failures with the usual compost-sand mixture, but at least the
successful ones are easy to plant on. I certainly wouldn't even
consider old-fashioned flour-and-water paste, as that would be covered
with moulds in no time. You could make an agar gel out of Irish
(Carragheen) moss, but I couldn't be bothered.

I can't make up my mind about rooting hormones: there certainly are
some cuttings where they are said to do more harm than good, and with
others there doesn't seem to be much point. They do lose their
effectiveness in storage.

The fear (unbacked by any evidence at all) of anti-fungal ingredients
is also what put me off using wallpaper paste as an experimental fluid
sowing medium. We don't really need these aids anyhow.

Mike.

Franz Heymann wrote in message ...


Thanks for the URL. However, in the meantime, I have used Google to
discover that there is still a kit available in the UK. It got quite a
good
write-up in the June issue of the RHS journal. It is called
"Gel2root", and
is available from Fothergills. The gel contains both a rooting agent
and a
sterilising agent. I have ordered a trial pack and will report when I
have
some results.

I have some cuttings already in it, found it in my local GC. So far
trying Calicarpa, Hybiscus syriacus, potentilla and buddleia globosa.

Mike
www.british-naturism.org.uk

Franz Heymann wrote:


Yes. I mentioned in another post that I have come across a source and have
ordered some.

Must've missed that.. Y can still ahve fun making you're own if you
wish though.. Try Agar and up to 5% V8 carrot juice.. As long as it
starts off sterile (eg clean heat cleaned containers) and is set hot
then cooled) there is no reason why it might not work OK..

As I said the tricky bit is weaning as plants grown like this may have
less 'normal' bacterial/fungal colonisation already in place compared to
conventional cuttings.
//
Jim

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message ...
"Jane Ransom" wrote in message
...
In article , Franz Heymann notfranz.
writes

Why has the concept disappeared from the scene?

Possibly because people realised that, to root cuttings, you don't need
gel or rooting hormones or anything else. All you need to do is do it at
the right time in plain ordinary soil - well compost and sand if you
want to be really finickity!!!!!!

Many years ago I did a trial run, rooting Lithospermum cuttings in a gel,
cutting compost, sharp sand and garden soil. The samples were not large
enough to make a quantitative comparison, but for what it is worth, the gel
came out best and the garden soil was worst. What I found most attractive
about the gel was that the cuttings needed no attention at all other than
looking to see if they had rooted. Moreover, this inspection could be done
without disturbing the cuttings in any way.

It occurred to me that one ought to try and replace the commercial gel with
a thick wallpaper paste, made up with water plus a few drops of Benlate
sterilising agent and a drop or two of liquid rooting hormone. Somehow,
there were always something else to do, and this experiment was never done.
Perhaps one of our readers is sufficiently experimentally minded to give it
a try.

I was always put off trying it because I feared the anti-fungal agents
in the wallpaper paste might kill or weaken the roots, and because of
what Kay mentioned: surely this is just an extension of rooting in
water, with the usual attendant difficulties of transfer. You may get
some failures with the usual compost-sand mixture, but at least the
successful ones are easy to plant on. I certainly wouldn't even
consider old-fashioned flour-and-water paste, as that would be covered
with moulds in no time. You could make an agar gel out of Irish
(Carragheen) moss, but I couldn't be bothered.

I can't make up my mind about rooting hormones: there certainly are
some cuttings where they are said to do more harm than good, and with
others there doesn't seem to be much point. They do lose their
effectiveness in storage.

The fear (unbacked by any evidence at all) of anti-fungal ingredients
is also what put me off using wallpaper paste as an experimental fluid
sowing medium. We don't really need these aids anyhow.

Mike.

Franz Heymann wrote in message ...


Thanks for the URL. However, in the meantime, I have used Google to
discover that there is still a kit available in the UK. It got quite a
good
write-up in the June issue of the RHS journal. It is called
"Gel2root", and
is available from Fothergills. The gel contains both a rooting agent
and a
sterilising agent. I have ordered a trial pack and will report when I
have
some results.

I have some cuttings already in it, found it in my local GC. So far
trying Calicarpa, Hybiscus syriacus, potentilla and buddleia globosa.

Mike
www.british-naturism.org.uk

"Michael Berridge" wrote in message
...

Franz Heymann wrote in message ...


Thanks for the URL. However, in the meantime, I have used Google to
discover that there is still a kit available in the UK. It got quite a
good
write-up in the June issue of the RHS journal. It is called
"Gel2root", and
is available from Fothergills. The gel contains both a rooting agent
and a
sterilising agent. I have ordered a trial pack and will report when I
have
some results.

I have some cuttings already in it, found it in my local GC. So far
trying Calicarpa, Hybiscus syriacus, potentilla and buddleia globosa.

It would be nice if you were to keep us posted.
I tried my usual GC. They did not know what I was talking about.

Franz

"Michael Berridge" wrote in message
...

Franz Heymann wrote in message ...


Thanks for the URL. However, in the meantime, I have used Google to
discover that there is still a kit available in the UK. It got quite a
good
write-up in the June issue of the RHS journal. It is called
"Gel2root", and
is available from Fothergills. The gel contains both a rooting agent
and a
sterilising agent. I have ordered a trial pack and will report when I
have
some results.

I have some cuttings already in it, found it in my local GC. So far
trying Calicarpa, Hybiscus syriacus, potentilla and buddleia globosa.

It would be nice if you were to keep us posted.
I tried my usual GC. They did not know what I was talking about.

Franz

"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
om...
"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...
"Jane Ransom" wrote in message
...
In article , Franz Heymann
notfranz.
writes

Why has the concept disappeared from the scene?

Possibly because people realised that, to root cuttings, you don't
need
gel or rooting hormones or anything else. All you need to do is do it
at
the right time in plain ordinary soil - well compost and sand if you
want to be really finickity!!!!!!

Many years ago I did a trial run, rooting Lithospermum cuttings in a
gel,
cutting compost, sharp sand and garden soil. The samples were not large
enough to make a quantitative comparison, but for what it is worth, the
gel
came out best and the garden soil was worst. What I found most
attractive
about the gel was that the cuttings needed no attention at all other
than
looking to see if they had rooted. Moreover, this inspection could be
done
without disturbing the cuttings in any way.

It occurred to me that one ought to try and replace the commercial gel
with
a thick wallpaper paste, made up with water plus a few drops of Benlate
sterilising agent and a drop or two of liquid rooting hormone.
Somehow,
there were always something else to do, and this experiment was never
done.
Perhaps one of our readers is sufficiently experimentally minded to give
it
a try.

I was always put off trying it because I feared the anti-fungal agents
in the wallpaper paste might kill or weaken the roots, and because of
what Kay mentioned: surely this is just an extension of rooting in
water, with the usual attendant difficulties of transfer.
You may get
some failures with the usual compost-sand mixture, but at least the
successful ones are easy to plant on.

I assure you that it is easier to transplant the gel-grown cuttings safely
than it is to transplant compost-grown cuttings. I have elaborated on this
in another post to this thread.

I certainly wouldn't even
consider old-fashioned flour-and-water paste, as that would be covered
with moulds in no time. You could make an agar gel out of Irish
(Carragheen) moss, but I couldn't be bothered.

The agar would also be mould ridden if it did not contain a disinfecting (if
that is the word I want) agent. The commercial gel and a commercial
wallpaper paste like polycel both contain an anti-mould agent

I can't make up my mind about rooting hormones: there certainly are
some cuttings where they are said to do more harm than good, and with
others there doesn't seem to be much point. They do lose their
effectiveness in storage.

Thanks for that info. I have always wondered if I was squandering my
savings by religiously buying a new supply each season.

The fear (unbacked by any evidence at all) of anti-fungal ingredients
is also what put me off using wallpaper paste as an experimental fluid
sowing medium. We don't really need these aids anyhow.

I don't agree with that last sentiment. I have not done it yet, but I would
be surprised if it did not turn out to be more convenient and safer to prick
out seedlings germinated in a gel than all that rough handling involved in
the use of a seed compost..

Franz

"Jim W" wrote in message
news:1fzpaq4.3fotk71tjjc6pN%00senetnospamtodayta@m acunlimited.net...
Franz Heymann wrote:


Yes. I mentioned in another post that I have come across a source and
have
ordered some.

Must've missed that.. Y can still ahve fun making you're own if you
wish though.. Try Agar and up to 5% V8 carrot juice.. As long as it
starts off sterile (eg clean heat cleaned containers) and is set hot
then cooled) there is no reason why it might not work OK..

Where does one buy Agar?
What does it cost?
What is wrong with simply making up a weak jelly with ordinary "food" jelly?


As I said the tricky bit is weaning as plants grown like this may have
less 'normal' bacterial/fungal colonisation already in place compared to
conventional cuttings.

Franz

"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
om...
"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...
"Jane Ransom" wrote in message
...
In article , Franz Heymann
notfranz.
writes

Why has the concept disappeared from the scene?

Possibly because people realised that, to root cuttings, you don't
need
gel or rooting hormones or anything else. All you need to do is do it
at
the right time in plain ordinary soil - well compost and sand if you
want to be really finickity!!!!!!

Many years ago I did a trial run, rooting Lithospermum cuttings in a
gel,
cutting compost, sharp sand and garden soil. The samples were not large
enough to make a quantitative comparison, but for what it is worth, the
gel
came out best and the garden soil was worst. What I found most
attractive
about the gel was that the cuttings needed no attention at all other
than
looking to see if they had rooted. Moreover, this inspection could be
done
without disturbing the cuttings in any way.

It occurred to me that one ought to try and replace the commercial gel
with
a thick wallpaper paste, made up with water plus a few drops of Benlate
sterilising agent and a drop or two of liquid rooting hormone.
Somehow,
there were always something else to do, and this experiment was never
done.
Perhaps one of our readers is sufficiently experimentally minded to give
it
a try.

I was always put off trying it because I feared the anti-fungal agents
in the wallpaper paste might kill or weaken the roots, and because of
what Kay mentioned: surely this is just an extension of rooting in
water, with the usual attendant difficulties of transfer.
You may get
some failures with the usual compost-sand mixture, but at least the
successful ones are easy to plant on.

I assure you that it is easier to transplant the gel-grown cuttings safely
than it is to transplant compost-grown cuttings. I have elaborated on this
in another post to this thread.

I certainly wouldn't even
consider old-fashioned flour-and-water paste, as that would be covered
with moulds in no time. You could make an agar gel out of Irish
(Carragheen) moss, but I couldn't be bothered.

The agar would also be mould ridden if it did not contain a disinfecting (if
that is the word I want) agent. The commercial gel and a commercial
wallpaper paste like polycel both contain an anti-mould agent

I can't make up my mind about rooting hormones: there certainly are
some cuttings where they are said to do more harm than good, and with
others there doesn't seem to be much point. They do lose their
effectiveness in storage.

Thanks for that info. I have always wondered if I was squandering my
savings by religiously buying a new supply each season.

The fear (unbacked by any evidence at all) of anti-fungal ingredients
is also what put me off using wallpaper paste as an experimental fluid
sowing medium. We don't really need these aids anyhow.

I don't agree with that last sentiment. I have not done it yet, but I would
be surprised if it did not turn out to be more convenient and safer to prick
out seedlings germinated in a gel than all that rough handling involved in
the use of a seed compost..

Franz

"Jim W" wrote in message
news:1fzpaq4.3fotk71tjjc6pN%00senetnospamtodayta@m acunlimited.net...
Franz Heymann wrote:


Yes. I mentioned in another post that I have come across a source and
have
ordered some.

Must've missed that.. Y can still ahve fun making you're own if you
wish though.. Try Agar and up to 5% V8 carrot juice.. As long as it
starts off sterile (eg clean heat cleaned containers) and is set hot
then cooled) there is no reason why it might not work OK..

Where does one buy Agar?
What does it cost?
What is wrong with simply making up a weak jelly with ordinary "food" jelly?


As I said the tricky bit is weaning as plants grown like this may have
less 'normal' bacterial/fungal colonisation already in place compared to
conventional cuttings.

Franz

Franz Heymann wrote:

Where does one buy Agar?
What does it cost?

See previous post for the answer to both the above.
What is wrong with simply making up a weak jelly with ordinary "food" jelly?

Try it.. you asked what was used, not what you could try to use;-) I
suspect you may get other contaminations though. We were told to avoid
anything that grew a pink slime.. NOT in humour I think it was sign of a
culture of a human contaminant.. Its all to easy to breathe on gels
whilst preparing (esp in a domestic setting) and grow something you
don't want to !
//
Jim

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message ...
"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
[...]
You may get
some failures with the usual compost-sand mixture, but at least the
successful ones are easy to plant on.

I assure you that it is easier to transplant the gel-grown cuttings safely
than it is to transplant compost-grown cuttings. I have elaborated on this
in another post to this thread.

I haven't seen the other post; I'll read it now.

I certainly wouldn't even
consider old-fashioned flour-and-water paste, as that would be covered
with moulds in no time. You could make an agar gel out of Irish
(Carragheen) moss, but I couldn't be bothered.

The agar would also be mould ridden if it did not contain a disinfecting (if
that is the word I want) agent.

You make it up by boiling the seaweed, so it would be sterile at least
to start with. Though the boiling would drive out dissolved oxygen,
which must be a bad thing.

The commercial gel and a commercial
wallpaper paste like polycel both contain an anti-mould agent

But we'd need to be sure the wallpaper paste one was as harmless as
the one intended specifically for plants, and that's what worried me.

I can't make up my mind about rooting hormones: there certainly are
some cuttings where they are said to do more harm than good, and with
others there doesn't seem to be much point. They do lose their
effectiveness in storage.

Thanks for that info. I have always wondered if I was squandering my
savings by religiously buying a new supply each season.

No, you've been doing the right thing.

The fear (unbacked by any evidence at all) of anti-fungal ingredients
is also what put me off using wallpaper paste as an experimental fluid
sowing medium. We don't really need these aids anyhow.

I don't agree with that last sentiment. I have not done it yet, but I would
be surprised if it did not turn out to be more convenient and safer to prick
out seedlings germinated in a gel than all that rough handling involved in
the use of a seed compost..

I certainly do damage a fair few seedings when pricking out, sometimes
by clumsiness, sometimes by having left them a bit too late (my
personal record is probably some cotoneasters which I somehow left in
the seed tray for five years!). I suspect the gel technique would be
to sow seeds individually as one would in something like a peat block,
rather than broadcast in a tray. I can see its potential value for
very scarce or expensive seeds; but I imagine one would need to learn
some new techniques.

It must also have enormous commercial value, as combined with fluid
sowing technique it would sharply reduce labour inputs.

Mike.

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message ...
"Jim W" wrote in message
news:1fzpaq4.3fotk71tjjc6pN%00senetnospamtodayta@m acunlimited.net...
Franz Heymann wrote:


Yes. I mentioned in another post that I have come across a source and
have
ordered some.

Must've missed that.. Y can still ahve fun making you're own if you
wish though.. Try Agar and up to 5% V8 carrot juice.. As long as it
starts off sterile (eg clean heat cleaned containers) and is set hot
then cooled) there is no reason why it might not work OK..

Where does one buy Agar?
What does it cost?
What is wrong with simply making up a weak jelly with ordinary "food" jelly?

[...]

Wholefood shops sell Carragheen or Irish moss: I don't imagine it
costs much. I've always meant to try making the pudding, but have
never got round to it.

I have no idea if you can use gelatin for propagation; but I think the
reason it isn't used in labs is that it has a lower melting-point than
agar. There may also be an issue in terms of reactivity to acids,
perhaps?

Mike.

Why has the concept disappeared from the scene?

What was the gel which was used?

[Franz Heymann]


The product in the UK was Fisons Clearcut.

The company spent a small fortune on advertising the product in various
media including TV, and it sold like hot cakes - but as soon as they
stopped advertising, it stopped selling...

It just wasn't profitable, and ISTR it had a restricted shelf-life,
which meant that Garden Centres and wholesalers didn't want to stock it
if it didn't turn over fast enough to avoid wastage.
--
AndyB