We have at the bottom of our new garden a very old hawthorn hedge,
this is very thick and quite tall but the bottom 3 to 4 feet is bare
and quite open.
It would be very easy to crawl through. My question is can this hedge
be thickened up or should I remove and replant, I have heard of laying
it over but the bottom trunks are very thick and I’m not sure if
this will work.
Any thoughts / advise gratefully accepted.
Rob

On 20 Aug 2003 16:48:28 -0700, (rob w) wrote:

We have at the bottom of our new garden a very old hawthorn hedge,
this is very thick and quite tall but the bottom 3 to 4 feet is bare
and quite open.
It would be very easy to crawl through. My question is can this hedge
be thickened up or should I remove and replant, I have heard of laying
it over but the bottom trunks are very thick and I’m not sure if
this will work.
Any thoughts / advise gratefully accepted.


I've seen pretty thick hawthorn trunks split and laid over along the
lanes round here, but I rather get the impression it's something
that's harder to do than it looks.
One of the guys was using a very unusual 'machete', with a sort of
raised section on the upper part of the blade - could this be the key
to a successful job?
I did try a spot of laying myself, and the results ( although they
worked, eventually ) looked pretty awful for a time. I think you have
to be quite brave about it.


Another option is to interplant. A 'proper' Hawthorn hedge ought to be
interwoven with a variety of species.
My own hedges contain a mix of Hawthorn, Holly, Yew, Box, Ash and
Chestnut ( the latter two I wouldn't advise planting voluntarily ).
Box is particularly good for filling out the lower regions of a hedge.

For extra interest, chuck in something unusual - like a Redcurrant.

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

rob w wrote:

We have at the bottom of our new garden a very old hawthorn hedge,
this is very thick and quite tall but the bottom 3 to 4 feet is bare
and quite open.
It would be very easy to crawl through. My question is can this hedge
be thickened up or should I remove and replant, I have heard of laying
it over but the bottom trunks are very thick and I’m not sure if
this will work.
Any thoughts / advise gratefully accepted.

Removing the existing hedge would be a tragedy -- if it really is old,
there may be hedgebottom spp (and hedgerow plants) that would be lost,
certainly not included in the standard mixed hedge packs. It's even
possible that you would not be legally allowed to grub up such a piece
of landscape history :-)

If left unmanaged for long periods, hawthorn and most other hedgerow
shrubs grow up to be small trees with bare trunks at the base. To
prevent this, hedges have to be cut back regularly. Laying is a good
thing, but you probably should engage the services of someone who knows
how to do it; it's one of those things that is harder than it looks. An
expert can tell you whether your hedge is fit to lay or not.

If laying is not appropriate, then coppicing is a good way of forcing
the trees to become hedgerow shrubs once more. The only problems are
that you lose the hedge for a few years (perhaps three or four) until
the new growth reaches a decent height, and that if rabbits or hares
have access to the new growth, you might lose the hedge completely.
Rabbit-fencing for a few years after coppicing would be a good idea.


regards
sarah


--
Think of it as evolution in action.

"sw" wrote in message
...
rob w wrote:

We have at the bottom of our new garden a very old hawthorn hedge,
this is very thick and quite tall but the bottom 3 to 4 feet is bare
and quite open.
It would be very easy to crawl through. My question is can this hedge
be thickened up or should I remove and replant, I have heard of laying
it over but the bottom trunks are very thick and I’m not sure if
this will work.
Any thoughts / advise gratefully accepted.

Removing the existing hedge would be a tragedy -- if it really is old,
there may be hedgebottom spp (and hedgerow plants) that would be lost,
certainly not included in the standard mixed hedge packs. It's even
possible that you would not be legally allowed to grub up such a piece
of landscape history :-)

If left unmanaged for long periods, hawthorn and most other hedgerow
shrubs grow up to be small trees with bare trunks at the base. To
prevent this, hedges have to be cut back regularly. Laying is a good
thing, but you probably should engage the services of someone who knows
how to do it; it's one of those things that is harder than it looks. An
expert can tell you whether your hedge is fit to lay or not.

If laying is not appropriate, then coppicing is a good way of forcing
the trees to become hedgerow shrubs once more. The only problems are
that you lose the hedge for a few years (perhaps three or four) until
the new growth reaches a decent height, and that if rabbits or hares
have access to the new growth, you might lose the hedge completely.
Rabbit-fencing for a few years after coppicing would be a good idea.


regards
sarah

I agree with Sarah, this hedge should be laid if possible. Once you know
what you are doing it is quite easy. It is the learning that it difficult. I
was taught by a local expert over a two year period (having studied the
theory in books). Do you wish to go to these lengths to lay one hedge?

If not, look around local farms. If anyone has a well laid hedge, ask who
did it and then pay them to do the job for you.

If you wish to do it yourself, the best book to start with, IMHO, is:-
Hedging, a practical handbook by Alan Brooks & Elizabeth Agate, published by
the British Trust for Conservation Volunteers (BTCV). This book is widely
available but the BTCV web site is at http://www.btcv.org It may still be a
good idea to look round local farms just to see which style (if any) is used
locally.

Whichever route you take, you have a little time to plan things as laying is
a winter job. The trees must be dormant when laid.

Regards

Howard Neil

(rob w) wrote:

Hello rob

rw We have at the bottom of our new garden a very old hawthorn
rw hedge, this is very thick and quite tall but the bottom 3 to
rw 4 feet is bare and quite open. It would be very easy to
rw crawl through. My question is can this hedge be thickened up
rw or should I remove and replant, I have heard of laying it
rw over but the bottom trunks are very thick and I’m not
rw sure if this will work. Any thoughts / advise gratefully
rw accepted. Rob

Hawthorn lays quite well, even up to 6" or so diameter. Best done late
Autumn or early spring, always ensure that after laying the tree is
still pointing upwards (otherwise it'll die, sap won't go downhill).
Cut through about 2/3 - 3/4 on a diagonal, push. Either tie down the
tree or ram stakes through it to stop it being blown off the line.

If you make a complete pigs ear, then you might want to remove and
replant - but surely worth a try? Some rural craft people do short
courses for hedge laying - maybe worth a look around?

Or you could buy some whips and just infill the holes, sometimes that
works, although sometimes it doesn't.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK Ý http://www.digdilem.org/

Stephen Howard wrote in message . ..
On 20 Aug 2003 16:48:28 -0700, (rob w) wrote:

We have at the bottom of our new garden a very old hawthorn hedge,
this is very thick and quite tall but the bottom 3 to 4 feet is bare
and quite open.
It would be very easy to crawl through. My question is can this hedge
be thickened up or should I remove and replant, I have heard of laying
it over but the bottom trunks are very thick and I’m not sure if
this will work.
Any thoughts / advise gratefully accepted.


I've seen pretty thick hawthorn trunks split and laid over along the
lanes round here, but I rather get the impression it's something
that's harder to do than it looks.
One of the guys was using a very unusual 'machete', with a sort of
raised section on the upper part of the blade - could this be the key
to a successful job?
I did try a spot of laying myself, and the results ( although they
worked, eventually ) looked pretty awful for a time. I think you have
to be quite brave about it.


Another option is to interplant. A 'proper' Hawthorn hedge ought to be
interwoven with a variety of species.
My own hedges contain a mix of Hawthorn, Holly, Yew, Box, Ash and
Chestnut ( the latter two I wouldn't advise planting voluntarily ).
Box is particularly good for filling out the lower regions of a hedge.

For extra interest, chuck in something unusual - like a Redcurrant.

The slashing tool Stephen mentions is, surprisingly, called a
"slasher"! In essence, it's a hedging bill on a long handle; but it
sounds as though you need a logging saw here.

If it's gappy, I think his interplanting idea is best: for hedging
purposes you can get the young plants cheaply from, e.g. Buckingham
Nurseries: don't even think about the garden centre!

Blackthorn's nice in a hedge, but it spreads a lot. Long-tailed tits
like it. The red currant idea is terrific: gooseberries, too.
Primroses, snowdrops, and lungwort on the north side, ramsons if it's
moist; bluebells, of course.

In winter, and not before, I'd cut the old hawthorns down to six
inches from the ground. Whether or not they'll all sprout again at
their age, I'm not entirely sure, but they've clearly got to go
anyhow.

I'd also work in some bonemeal and a bit of compost or rotted muck, as
the soil's probably tired.

Except for the fun of it, there's no need to use traditional laying,
which is designed to produce a stock-proof barrier: to do it right you
need to buy in some stakes, and once the individual trees have got as
big as yours there won't be enough long wands to bend over and weave
in. Ordinary garden hedge-cutting rules will give you as good-looking
a hedge.

She'll be Jake, mate!

Mike.

In article , Mike Lyle
writes

Blackthorn's nice in a hedge, but it spreads a lot. Long-tailed tits
like it.

That's good to know - I love long tailed tits, and get flocks of them in
the garden now and again.

The red currant idea is terrific: gooseberries, too.

Gooseberries excellent - I have one growing under a dogwood - it's
flourishing, rooting so it's now 6 ft long, and cropping well. I think
it would be good in a hedge.

Primroses,

Cowdlips even better - they tolerate the dryness in summer better than
primroses.

snowdrops, and lungwort on the north side, ramsons if it's
moist; bluebells, of course.

I'd be surprised if it was moist enough under a hawthorn hedge.


--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

In article , rob w
writes
We have at the bottom of our new garden a very old hawthorn hedge,
this is very thick and quite tall but the bottom 3 to 4 feet is bare
and quite open.
It would be very easy to crawl through. My question is can this hedge
be thickened up or should I remove and replant, I have heard of laying
it over but the bottom trunks are very thick and I’m not sure if
this will work.

Get and expert in to lay it.

If you want to renovate it yourself, it'll take a year or two. Hawthorn
shoots quite readily from bare wood, so what I would do (and am doing on
mine with signs of success) is reduce the height of the whole thing
though not so low as to be below the current green bit. Then on
multistemmed plants take out one or two trunks quite low, and try with
any that are convenient cutting them half or 3/4 through and bending
them to lie sideways.

Your aim is to encourage shooting down below by removing top growth, and
to allow enough light into the bottom for that new growth to flourish.
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:19:27 +0100, Kay Easton
wrote:

In article , Mike Lyle
writes


snowdrops, and lungwort on the north side, ramsons if it's
moist; bluebells, of course.

I'd be surprised if it was moist enough under a hawthorn hedge.

Good point!
I often clear the ivy out of the bottom my hedges, and I reckon it
must be one of the driest spots in the garden.

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk

In article ,
says...
We have at the bottom of our new garden a very old hawthorn hedge,
this is very thick and quite tall but the bottom 3 to 4 feet is bare
and quite open.

How thick is thick? Hawthorn will tolerate very rough treatmnet nad you
can have a fair bit of fun doing your own laying. It may not be
professional or 'done pretty' but it is your own work and it will thicken
up to give a good hedge again.

You should do it in January or February when it is completely dormant and
you will need a good saw for the very thick bits and a heavy bladed
slasher for the more managable pieces. Cut diagonally downward about
2/3rds of the way through and then bend down as close to the ground as
possible [the brach, not you g]. as you move along the others will lay
on top and give added height. You will find it necessary to knock posts
in at intervals along the lenght to be laid to keep the line of the
hedge.

You will also need some very heavy leather gauntlets. Ideally an old
kettle filled with water should also accompany you along with a box of
matches. You then collect the thinnings, light a fire and boil the
kettle to make a cuppa whilst you admire your handiwork, collect the
compliments and think how you can do it all again in a few years time.

It can be very satisfying to do as a hobby; to do properly takes a *lot*
of experience.
--
David
Visit http://www.farm-direct.co.uk for your local farmgate food supplies.
FAQ's, Glossary, Farming Year and more!

In article , David P
writes
Cut diagonally downward about
2/3rds of the way through and then bend down as close to the ground as
possible [the brach, not you g].

You are supposed to pick the uprights you want to lay then chop the side
shoots off them before making the slash. Other uprights you can cut out
completely.

--
Jane Ransom in Lancaster.
I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg
but if you need to email me for any other reason,
put jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see deadspam.com

In article ,
says...
We have at the bottom of our new garden a very old hawthorn hedge,
this is very thick and quite tall but the bottom 3 to 4 feet is bare
and quite open.

How thick is thick? Hawthorn will tolerate very rough treatmnet nad you
can have a fair bit of fun doing your own laying. It may not be
professional or 'done pretty' but it is your own work and it will thicken
up to give a good hedge again.

You should do it in January or February when it is completely dormant and
you will need a good saw for the very thick bits and a heavy bladed
slasher for the more managable pieces. Cut diagonally downward about
2/3rds of the way through and then bend down as close to the ground as
possible [the brach, not you g]. as you move along the others will lay
on top and give added height. You will find it necessary to knock posts
in at intervals along the lenght to be laid to keep the line of the
hedge.

You will also need some very heavy leather gauntlets. Ideally an old
kettle filled with water should also accompany you along with a box of
matches. You then collect the thinnings, light a fire and boil the
kettle to make a cuppa whilst you admire your handiwork, collect the
compliments and think how you can do it all again in a few years time.

It can be very satisfying to do as a hobby; to do properly takes a *lot*
of experience.
--
David
Visit http://www.farm-direct.co.uk for your local farmgate food supplies.
FAQ's, Glossary, Farming Year and more!

In article , David P
writes
Cut diagonally downward about
2/3rds of the way through and then bend down as close to the ground as
possible [the brach, not you g].

You are supposed to pick the uprights you want to lay then chop the side
shoots off them before making the slash. Other uprights you can cut out
completely.

--
Jane Ransom in Lancaster.
I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg
but if you need to email me for any other reason,
put jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see deadspam.com

"sw" wrote in message
...
"Howard Neil" hneil@REMOVE TO REPLY.co.uk wrote:

"sw" wrote in message
...
rob w wrote:

*sigh* Retirement is an attractive prospect -- a whole new array of
employment opportunities :-) I want to learn drystone walling, myself.


regards
sarah

When you eventually get to retirement (I am sure you have a long way to go),
don't waste time before learning your dry stone walling. It is amazing how
quickly your "spare time" gets filled with important things. :-)

Howard Neil

"David P" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

You should do it in January or February when it is completely dormant and
you will need a good saw for the very thick bits and a heavy bladed
slasher for the more managable pieces. Cut diagonally downward about
2/3rds of the way through and then bend down as close to the ground as
possible [the brach, not you g]. as you move along the others will lay
on top and give added height. You will find it necessary to knock posts
in at intervals along the lenght to be laid to keep the line of the
hedge.

There are so many different styles of hedging that this may not always be
acceptable but there is a way of avoiding knocking in the posts. When
selecting your pleachers (the stem that is to be laid), choose a couple of
stems (one each side of the hedge) to act as pegs and cut them at about 1
metre high. Subsequent pleachers are then steered between these pegs. Much
easier than using posts but, as I say, will not work with every style of
hedge.

You will also need some very heavy leather gauntlets. Ideally an old
kettle filled with water should also accompany you along with a box of
matches. You then collect the thinnings, light a fire and boil the
kettle to make a cuppa whilst you admire your handiwork, collect the
compliments and think how you can do it all again in a few years time.

I like the idea of the kettle.

Howard Neil