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Old 31-10-2003, 01:02 PM
Cerumen
 
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Default compost heap question


"Shannie" wrote in message
...
During the winter I burn only peat briquettes. I don't burn coal or

anything
else on the fire. The result of which is two buckets of very dusty peat

ash
per week. Is it alright to add this to the compost heap or would it

upset
the balance too much? Is there any other way I could use it? Also, now

the
weather has cooled right off is it still essential to 'activate' the

heap as
often as during the summer?

I also only burn peat and the ash has always stayed as just ash in any
small compost heat I've added it to. When I had chickens I used to put it
in their field or house and they loved it as a dust bath and it was then
incorporated into the very large and active heaps created when the
straw/manure/ash mixture was removed and heaped.
--
Chris Thomas
West Cork
Ireland




  #17   Report Post  
Old 31-10-2003, 01:02 PM
Franz Heymann
 
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"K" wrote in message
...

[snip]

Personally, I am as 'organic' or 'inorganic' as I want to be, both in my
garden and in my every day life.


Hear Hear!!

I neither expect nor want people to impose
their ideas on me and I don't criticise them for their beliefs.


I have been a scientist all my life and I regard it as important to
criticise beliefs connected with scientific matters which have no scientific
basis.
I propose to go on doing so, much though you might dislike me for it.

K (the original one)


Perhaps you could be distinguished from that nerd "k" if you called yourself
"KKK"?
{:-))

Franz


  #18   Report Post  
Old 31-10-2003, 01:12 PM
K k or keith read my address
 
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Default compost heap question

Shannie wrote:
During the winter I burn only peat briquettes. I don't burn coal or anything
else on the fire. The result of which is two buckets of very dusty peat ash
per week. Is it alright to add this to the compost heap or would it upset
the balance too much? Is there any other way I could use it? Also, now the
weather has cooled right off is it still essential to 'activate' the heap as
often as during the summer?


Thanks guys
Shannie



This could be an intersting link for you shannie have a read


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2801541.stm

You can make up your own mind

  #19   Report Post  
Old 31-10-2003, 01:42 PM
Stephen Howard
 
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On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:53:52 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:



John, I keep seeing wishy washy definitions of what is considered as being
"organic" by organic gardeners. None of them stand up to any detailed
scrutiny.


Talk to the Soil Assoc. people then - I'm sure they'll be only too
pleased to debate the issue on the scientific level you aspire
to....us lot are just 'umble gardeners.

Surely there are only beneficient and deleterious substances as far as
gardening is concerned. Keep on using the beneficient substances and cease
to use a substance as soon as it is proven to be sufficiently deleterious to
warrant such action.


Might be too late then....DDT, Creosote etc..

What on earth more could one in fact ask for?

No unpleasant surprises several years down the line, for one.

I'm perfectly happy to stick with my 'wishy washy' definition of
organic gardening - it renders the need for concern about the use of
this and that academic. If, in future years, I see a report on the
telly that says such-and-such a chemical is implicated in
such-and-such an illness I can just shrug my shoulders and get on with
my dinner.
If I don't see such a report then everyone's happy.

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk
  #20   Report Post  
Old 31-10-2003, 02:32 PM
Nick Maclaren
 
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Default compost heap question


In article ,
"Franz Heymann" writes:
|
| I will never, never understand the mysteries of this practice. Who lays
| down the do's and don'ts? Is there some democratically elected committee,
| or do the rules come from on high? Or does every member of the movement
| just invent them as they go?

Yes, or no, or perhaps. It depends on your viewpoint.

| Considering that Phurnacite is coal which is decomposed and compressed
| plant material, why is the use of its ash taboo, whilst that of wood is
| kosher? I know the answer, of course, but it has nothing to do with
| "organic" or "not organic".

If you take that viewpoint to extremes, most plastics are derived
from plant material.

| Or consider the following: Wood ash is OK. What is the situation
| vis-a-vis wood which has first been converted into coke by heat and
| subsequently burnt as coke? Is this ash "organic" or "not organic"?

Don't you mean charcoal? Coke is derived from coal.

From a practical point of view, there is little difference between
wood ash, peat ash and charcoal ash. None will do any harm on a
mixed compost heap, in moderation. Large quantities should be
spread directly on the ground.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.


  #21   Report Post  
Old 31-10-2003, 02:32 PM
Tumbleweed
 
Posts: n/a
Default compost heap question

"Rodger Whitlock" wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:17:45 +0000 (UTC), Franz Heymann wrote:

...a person who believes in organic growing would (or should) object
strongly to using ash in a garden, since ash is entirely inorganic.


[I have a funny idea we've had this dispute before...]

Franz, you're confusing (istm) the technical sense of the word
"organic" as in "organic chemists make big stinks" with the
broader sense meaning, roughly, integrated, treated as a whole,
and so on.

Organic gardening means afaict gardening without using synthetic
fertilizers or pesti-/fungi-/insecticides.


.....unless its a mixture of copper sulfate, slaked lime and salt in which
case its organic.
....apparently.


--
Tumbleweed

Remove theobvious before replying (but no email reply necessary to
newsgroups)



  #22   Report Post  
Old 31-10-2003, 02:42 PM
Martin Brown
 
Posts: n/a
Default compost heap question

In message , Shannie
writes
During the winter I burn only peat briquettes. I don't burn coal or anything
else on the fire. The result of which is two buckets of very dusty peat ash
per week. Is it alright to add this to the compost heap or would it upset
the balance too much? Is there any other way I could use it? Also, now the
weather has cooled right off is it still essential to 'activate' the heap as
often as during the summer?


You do realise that burning peat for heat and power is actually far
worse for the environment than using it as compost for gardening?

Peat ash can concentrate elements that you don't really want to add to
your garden. Change to renewable wood burning instead and you would
have a nice alkaline potash fertiliser.

Regards,
--
Martin Brown
  #23   Report Post  
Old 31-10-2003, 03:02 PM
Tumbleweed
 
Posts: n/a
Default compost heap question

"Stephen Howard" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:53:52 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:



John, I keep seeing wishy washy definitions of what is considered as

being
"organic" by organic gardeners. None of them stand up to any detailed
scrutiny.


Talk to the Soil Assoc. people then - I'm sure they'll be only too
pleased to debate the issue on the scientific level you aspire
to....us lot are just 'umble gardeners.

Surely there are only beneficient and deleterious substances as far as
gardening is concerned. Keep on using the beneficient substances and

cease
to use a substance as soon as it is proven to be sufficiently deleterious

to
warrant such action.


Might be too late then....DDT, Creosote etc..

What on earth more could one in fact ask for?

No unpleasant surprises several years down the line, for one.


You ask for the impossible. There are plenty of 'organic' thinsg that are
harmful.
Lettuce contains more carcinogenic chemicals than many artificial pesticides
(banned or otherwise), for example. What are you going to do if thats one of
your unpleasant surprises, that you've been happily muching on those for
years whilst avoiding spraying them with pesticides that are less toxic than
the lettuces!


I'm perfectly happy to stick with my 'wishy washy' definition of
organic gardening - it renders the need for concern about the use of
this and that academic. If, in future years, I see a report on the
telly that says such-and-such a chemical is implicated in
such-and-such an illness I can just shrug my shoulders and get on with
my dinner.


Why? Do you believe that organic substances cant be harmful? Havent you seen
the reports of organic crops having higher levels of toxic fungi on them?
Seen the reports on sufactants used with glyphosphate being a problem? Thats
detergents to you. Ever sprayed your aphids with a solution of washing up
liquid, or poured the old washing up liquid on the garden? WHo knows what
unpleasant surprises may be waiting for you down the line.

--
Tumbleweed

Remove theobvious before replying (but no email reply necessary to
newsgroups)



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk



  #24   Report Post  
Old 31-10-2003, 03:02 PM
Tumbleweed
 
Posts: n/a
Default compost heap question

"K k or keith read my address" wrote in message
...
Shannie wrote:
During the winter I burn only peat briquettes. I don't burn coal or

anything
else on the fire. The result of which is two buckets of very dusty peat

ash
per week. Is it alright to add this to the compost heap or would it

upset
the balance too much? Is there any other way I could use it? Also, now

the
weather has cooled right off is it still essential to 'activate' the

heap as
often as during the summer?


Thanks guys
Shannie



This could be an intersting link for you shannie have a read


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2801541.stm

You can make up your own mind


IIRC forests have very high concentrations of dioxins (sometimes higher than
near incinerators) caused by fungi breaking down decaying wood. But perhaps
these are 'organic' dioxins and therefore safe?

--
Tumbleweed

Remove theobvious before replying (but no email reply necessary to
newsgroups)




  #25   Report Post  
Old 31-10-2003, 03:22 PM
martin
 
Posts: n/a
Default compost heap question

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:53:25 -0000, "Tumbleweed"
wrote:

snip

Why? Do you believe that organic substances cant be harmful? Havent you seen
the reports of organic crops having higher levels of toxic fungi on them?
Seen the reports on sufactants used with glyphosphate being a problem? Thats
detergents to you. Ever sprayed your aphids with a solution of washing up
liquid, or poured the old washing up liquid on the garden? WHo knows what
unpleasant surprises may be waiting for you down the line.


I have decided that "organic" is nearer to being a religion than a
science, you either believe in it or you don't. Making scientific
based criticism, only upsets the believers and causes unpleasantness.
No end of arguing here is going to change the minds of the converted
or the sceptics.
--
Martin


  #26   Report Post  
Old 31-10-2003, 03:32 PM
Stephen Howard
 
Posts: n/a
Default compost heap question

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 13:53:25 -0000, "Tumbleweed"
wrote:

"Stephen Howard" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 11:53:52 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:

What on earth more could one in fact ask for?

No unpleasant surprises several years down the line, for one.


You ask for the impossible. There are plenty of 'organic' thinsg that are
harmful.
Lettuce contains more carcinogenic chemicals than many artificial pesticides
(banned or otherwise), for example. What are you going to do if thats one of
your unpleasant surprises, that you've been happily muching on those for
years whilst avoiding spraying them with pesticides that are less toxic than
the lettuces!


For sure, I'm well aware that nature has its own arsenal of nasties -
but that's the whole point, it's nature. The biggest killer of all by
far is life itself. Got anything I can put on that?
And bunging yet more chemicals onto an already carcinogenic vegetable
does what, exactly?


I'm perfectly happy to stick with my 'wishy washy' definition of
organic gardening - it renders the need for concern about the use of
this and that academic. If, in future years, I see a report on the
telly that says such-and-such a chemical is implicated in
such-and-such an illness I can just shrug my shoulders and get on with
my dinner.


Why? Do you believe that organic substances cant be harmful?


See above...

Havent you seen
the reports of organic crops having higher levels of toxic fungi on them?


No, I haven't - unless you're referring to Ergot.
And how concerned should I be? Exposure in moderate doses to toxic
substances doesn't always mean a quick and painful death - quite the
reverse in some cases. As the saying goes, you'll eat a peck of dust
before you die.

Seen the reports on sufactants used with glyphosphate being a problem?


Yep, it's one reason I don't use them ( ground elder excepted this
year, natch )

Thats
detergents to you. Ever sprayed your aphids with a solution of washing up
liquid, or poured the old washing up liquid on the garden?


Nope.

WHo knows what
unpleasant surprises may be waiting for you down the line.


Which is perhaps the best reason I've yet seen not to compound the
problem by adding yet more chemicals or otherwise monkeying about with
nature.

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{whoisat}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk
  #27   Report Post  
Old 31-10-2003, 05:22 PM
Steve Harris
 
Posts: n/a
Default compost heap question

In article ,
(Martin Brown) wrote:

You do realise that burning peat for heat and power is actually far
worse for the environment


He's in Ireland. Almost all their energy has to be imported except peat
and they've got a lot of it.

Steve Harris - Cheltenham - Real address steve AT netservs DOT com
  #28   Report Post  
Old 31-10-2003, 06:02 PM
Franz Heymann
 
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Default compost heap question


"Stephen Howard" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 31 Oct 2003 08:01:29 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


As far as I'm concerned, organic gardening is about using common sense
- and the basic rule of thumb is to stick with naturally occurring
materials.


I try to use common sense in my approach to gardening. I use any substance
which I understand to have one or more beneficial effects on the environment
and I avoid substances which have been proven by scientific experiments to
have deleterious effect on balance. I doubt if that makes me an organic
gardener.

I am certainlt not a bandwaggoner.


I'm sure you can find a better and more concise explanation out there
- but this one suffices for me...I prefer gardening to politics.


I have been searching for long for precise definitions, but every time I
come across only wishy-washy ones like that porposed by you higher up in
this thread.

Considering that Phurnacite is coal which is decomposed and compressed
plant material, why is the use of its ash taboo, whilst that of wood is
kosher? I know the answer, of course, but it has nothing to do with
"organic" or "not organic".


I could be wrong, but as far as I'm aware processed coals like this
contain additives in order to regulate their burn. I know for sure
that there's a substantial difference in the quality of the ash from
plain old coal.
I wouldn't recommend coal ash on the garden anyway.


I would have thought that if anything was organic, coal was. Now do you
understand my problem?

I wrote to His Bobness, Duke of Flowerdew for some clarification on
the use of coal ash - his reply said that the residual sulphur in the
ash made it unsuitable for general garden use, though it's apparently
fine for cold frame drainage and chicken dust-baths.


Or consider the following: Wood ash is OK. What is the situation
vis-a-vis wood which has first been converted into coke by heat and
subsequently burnt as coke? Is this ash "organic" or "not organic"?

It would be considered organic.
If you chucked a plastic bottle into the converter you'd render the
coke inorganic.

In spite of the fact that the plastic yields only gases in its combustion
product, and therfore leaves no residue in the solid ash?

By the way, I used the wrong word when I said "coke". I obviously meant
"charcoal".

Franz



  #29   Report Post  
Old 31-10-2003, 06:02 PM
Franz Heymann
 
Posts: n/a
Default compost heap question


"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"Franz Heymann" writes:
|
| I will never, never understand the mysteries of this practice. Who

lays
| down the do's and don'ts? Is there some democratically elected

committee,
| or do the rules come from on high? Or does every member of the

movement
| just invent them as they go?

Yes, or no, or perhaps. It depends on your viewpoint.

| Considering that Phurnacite is coal which is decomposed and compressed
| plant material, why is the use of its ash taboo, whilst that of wood is
| kosher? I know the answer, of course, but it has nothing to do with
| "organic" or "not organic".

If you take that viewpoint to extremes, most plastics are derived
from plant material.

| Or consider the following: Wood ash is OK. What is the situation
| vis-a-vis wood which has first been converted into coke by heat and
| subsequently burnt as coke? Is this ash "organic" or "not organic"?

Don't you mean charcoal? Coke is derived from coal.


Yes. My apologies for the misuse of a word. I have corrected myself three
times altogether now.

From a practical point of view, there is little difference between
wood ash, peat ash and charcoal ash. None will do any harm on a
mixed compost heap, in moderation. Large quantities should be
spread directly on the ground.


Understood. Now what about real coke ash? That comes from coal which comes
from a mixture of plants.

Franz


  #30   Report Post  
Old 31-10-2003, 06:02 PM
Franz Heymann
 
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Default compost heap question


"Tumbleweed" wrote in message
. ..
"Rodger Whitlock" wrote in
message ...
On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 22:17:45 +0000 (UTC), Franz Heymann wrote:

...a person who believes in organic growing would (or should) object
strongly to using ash in a garden, since ash is entirely inorganic.


[I have a funny idea we've had this dispute before...]

Franz, you're confusing (istm) the technical sense of the word
"organic" as in "organic chemists make big stinks" with the
broader sense meaning, roughly, integrated, treated as a whole,
and so on.

Organic gardening means afaict gardening without using synthetic
fertilizers or pesti-/fungi-/insecticides.


....unless its a mixture of copper sulfate, slaked lime and salt in which
case its organic.
...apparently.


Yet, diesel oil, which is as organic as anything, is frowned upon as a
weedkiller

Franz


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