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where to buy diabetic bread in London?
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:32:53 -0000, "David Hill"
wrote: "..........My neighbour is diabetic and has been buying expensive imported diabetic bread. Does anyone know where this can be bought in London at reasonable prices? ....." I presume she has contact with a Diabetic clinic locally. She should ask their advice. This site may help a little with contacts http://www.diabetes.org.uk/home.htm David, I missed the start of this thread, so apologies for following up on your post. Diabetics in general need to watch their carbohydrate intake and be selective in it's type. For Type 2 diabetics (aka late onset diabetes, aka NIDDM), ordinary white bread is one of the sources of carbohydrate best avoided (for example, it's worse than sugar, the substance most non-diabetics think diabetics have to avoid like the plague). Whole grain breads (e.g. rye bread, pumpernickel) are more suitable. There are also breads based on other flours such as soy or gram flour that are also more appropriate (Bergen soy and linseed is one such, available in most supermarkets). Most so-called diabetic foods are a scam. They're expensive and are often worse for diabetics than the normal item. Boots no longer stock them, for that reason. This 'diabetic bread' may well be one such, or may just be a bread not based on wheat flour, or have a lower carbohydrate content per slice. Either way, I suggest your friend considers some of the alternatives I've suggested. You could also try asking on alt.support.diabetes.uk What's it got to do with gardening? -- Chris E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net |
where to buy diabetic bread in London?
In message , Andrew Hodgson
writes There are two types of diabetes, one where the Insulin is not produced at all (caused by an auto-imune problem I think) which is called type 1 diabetes. This happens in younger children, and you must take medication (Insulin injections) for this type of diabetes. The other type is called type 2 diabetes, and is where the Insulin is produced, but your body is not using it for some reason. In this case, people can either not take any medication (i.e, diet and exercise), take tablets, or in some more extreme cases take Insulin injections. A gross oversimplification, and not in line with modern thinking on what diabetes is or on the variety of methods of treatment, which change over time for any one diabetic. This tends to happen in more older people who are sometimes obese. A common medical error is to assume that if two symptoms occur together then one is the cause of the other. It is not and never has been true. Obesity is certainly linked with diabetes. There is no certainty that obesity CAUSES diabetes or that diabetes CAUSES obesity. Both could be the result of some other cause. Nor is the genetics of diabetes or its (apparently) increasing incidence in the world a simple cause/effect relationship. Studies have shown, for example, that in some tribes of native americans (redskins, to the politically incorrect) where there was no record of diabetes a few generations ago there is now a virtually 100% incidence of diabetes. An argument is that the pre-diabetic metabolism has a survival value in some kinds of cold conditions, especially where hunting does not involve swift movement. In those conditions a thick layer of blubber acts as both insulation and 'slow' energy store. So people with a pre-diabetic metabolism will preferentially survive to breeding age, and hence the genes for diabetes will be endemic in the population. Feast-and-famine keeps the diabetes more or less under control at the pre-clinical stage. There is no pay-off in actual Type II diabetes if normal age at death is under 40 and the Type II cuts in at over 45. Then the situation changes. There is no famine to use up reserves of blubber, and cold weather hunting is no longer necessary. 'Modern medicine' allows most of the tribe to survive to 40, 50, 60, even older. So in a couple of generations the apparent incidence of diabetes goes from 0% to 100%. There is no way that could be a genetic change. Worse still, diabetes is not actually a disease! It is the name of a symptom. That symptom can arise from interference at many different steps in metabolic pathways; and that means there are as many diseases as there are steps in which the metabolism can go wrong. That is also why some treatments work for some patients but not others. They might have the same symptoms but they don't have the same disease. For the ladies, it is worth noting that some women (usually comfortably plump) become diabetic when they get pregnant. In most cases the diabetes disappears after they give birth. That really puts the cat amongst the pigeons on all simplistic descriptions and theories about diabetes. Worse still there is a correlation between nature of profession and the incidence of diabetes. It is independent of genetics and lifestyle. It so happens that the profession with the highest incidence of diabetes is organic chemistry, my own first profession. That points to some chemical we handle in the labs being weakly diabetogenic. Last I heard, nobody had found which chemical it is. If you want more info look at www.diabetes.org.uk or read the diabetes newsgroups uk.people.support.diabetes or alt.support.diabetes.uk (which is where the OP should have made his post originally imho). Ah! This is how moderation would work, is it? You wouldn't have let me post the foregoing on your moderated disability group. You'd have insisted on it going elsewhere. But I think it more useful to put it in front of people who are not dedicated specialists in diabetic matters rather than in front of those who are already deeply involved. In this group I can exercise my judgement. In your world of moderation, I can't. This is only scratching the surface, and I am sure that someone more knowledgable than me will be along to give you more advice. I'd already given the advice before you posted your scratchings. I'll repeat it. Anybody who insists on buying special (expensive) 'diabetic bread' is either mad or being conned. Portion control of perfectly ordinary, cheap, bread will achieve all that is necessary. There isn't any reason why 'bread' in the form of jam doughnuts shouldn't be eaten, but the portions would have to be so small there wouldn't be any enjoyment in it, which is why it is pointless eating any high-sugar flour-based product. In my opinion, the tastiest way to go for calorie control is in the direction of high-fibre wholemeal bread with interesting additives. Some can be bought commercially. Making your own is a tad pricier but allows the option of juggling tastes to meet personal preferences. I mentioned a brown loaf I make with three different nuts and a large amount of orange zest soaked in whisky. It's a bit like having bread and marmalade without any of the sugar in the marmalade. There's another one where the main additive is ripe old stilton. It goes very well with some soups. There are many more, but they all carry the same warning. All of them hot out of the machine smell and taste wonderful. It needs discipline to count the calories and not have another slice, and another, and ... . There is no getting away with excuses about the vitamins, minerals and fibre which have been added and are good for you. You still have to count the carbohydrates actually in the mix. A diet suitable for diabetics does not have to be dull; nor unnecessarily expensive. Don Hth, Andrew. -- Dr D P Moody, Ashwood, Exeter Cross, Liverton, Newton Abbot, Devon, England TQ12 6EY Tel: +44(0) 1626 821725 Fax: +44(0) 1626 824912 |
where to buy diabetic bread in London?
In message , Andrew Hodgson
writes There are two types of diabetes, one where the Insulin is not produced at all (caused by an auto-imune problem I think) which is called type 1 diabetes. This happens in younger children, and you must take medication (Insulin injections) for this type of diabetes. The other type is called type 2 diabetes, and is where the Insulin is produced, but your body is not using it for some reason. In this case, people can either not take any medication (i.e, diet and exercise), take tablets, or in some more extreme cases take Insulin injections. A gross oversimplification, and not in line with modern thinking on what diabetes is or on the variety of methods of treatment, which change over time for any one diabetic. This tends to happen in more older people who are sometimes obese. A common medical error is to assume that if two symptoms occur together then one is the cause of the other. It is not and never has been true. Obesity is certainly linked with diabetes. There is no certainty that obesity CAUSES diabetes or that diabetes CAUSES obesity. Both could be the result of some other cause. Nor is the genetics of diabetes or its (apparently) increasing incidence in the world a simple cause/effect relationship. Studies have shown, for example, that in some tribes of native americans (redskins, to the politically incorrect) where there was no record of diabetes a few generations ago there is now a virtually 100% incidence of diabetes. An argument is that the pre-diabetic metabolism has a survival value in some kinds of cold conditions, especially where hunting does not involve swift movement. In those conditions a thick layer of blubber acts as both insulation and 'slow' energy store. So people with a pre-diabetic metabolism will preferentially survive to breeding age, and hence the genes for diabetes will be endemic in the population. Feast-and-famine keeps the diabetes more or less under control at the pre-clinical stage. There is no pay-off in actual Type II diabetes if normal age at death is under 40 and the Type II cuts in at over 45. Then the situation changes. There is no famine to use up reserves of blubber, and cold weather hunting is no longer necessary. 'Modern medicine' allows most of the tribe to survive to 40, 50, 60, even older. So in a couple of generations the apparent incidence of diabetes goes from 0% to 100%. There is no way that could be a genetic change. Worse still, diabetes is not actually a disease! It is the name of a symptom. That symptom can arise from interference at many different steps in metabolic pathways; and that means there are as many diseases as there are steps in which the metabolism can go wrong. That is also why some treatments work for some patients but not others. They might have the same symptoms but they don't have the same disease. For the ladies, it is worth noting that some women (usually comfortably plump) become diabetic when they get pregnant. In most cases the diabetes disappears after they give birth. That really puts the cat amongst the pigeons on all simplistic descriptions and theories about diabetes. Worse still there is a correlation between nature of profession and the incidence of diabetes. It is independent of genetics and lifestyle. It so happens that the profession with the highest incidence of diabetes is organic chemistry, my own first profession. That points to some chemical we handle in the labs being weakly diabetogenic. Last I heard, nobody had found which chemical it is. If you want more info look at www.diabetes.org.uk or read the diabetes newsgroups uk.people.support.diabetes or alt.support.diabetes.uk (which is where the OP should have made his post originally imho). Ah! This is how moderation would work, is it? You wouldn't have let me post the foregoing on your moderated disability group. You'd have insisted on it going elsewhere. But I think it more useful to put it in front of people who are not dedicated specialists in diabetic matters rather than in front of those who are already deeply involved. In this group I can exercise my judgement. In your world of moderation, I can't. This is only scratching the surface, and I am sure that someone more knowledgable than me will be along to give you more advice. I'd already given the advice before you posted your scratchings. I'll repeat it. Anybody who insists on buying special (expensive) 'diabetic bread' is either mad or being conned. Portion control of perfectly ordinary, cheap, bread will achieve all that is necessary. There isn't any reason why 'bread' in the form of jam doughnuts shouldn't be eaten, but the portions would have to be so small there wouldn't be any enjoyment in it, which is why it is pointless eating any high-sugar flour-based product. In my opinion, the tastiest way to go for calorie control is in the direction of high-fibre wholemeal bread with interesting additives. Some can be bought commercially. Making your own is a tad pricier but allows the option of juggling tastes to meet personal preferences. I mentioned a brown loaf I make with three different nuts and a large amount of orange zest soaked in whisky. It's a bit like having bread and marmalade without any of the sugar in the marmalade. There's another one where the main additive is ripe old stilton. It goes very well with some soups. There are many more, but they all carry the same warning. All of them hot out of the machine smell and taste wonderful. It needs discipline to count the calories and not have another slice, and another, and ... . There is no getting away with excuses about the vitamins, minerals and fibre which have been added and are good for you. You still have to count the carbohydrates actually in the mix. A diet suitable for diabetics does not have to be dull; nor unnecessarily expensive. Don Hth, Andrew. -- Dr D P Moody, Ashwood, Exeter Cross, Liverton, Newton Abbot, Devon, England TQ12 6EY Tel: +44(0) 1626 821725 Fax: +44(0) 1626 824912 |
where to buy diabetic bread in London?
In message , Andrew Hodgson
writes There are two types of diabetes, one where the Insulin is not produced at all (caused by an auto-imune problem I think) which is called type 1 diabetes. This happens in younger children, and you must take medication (Insulin injections) for this type of diabetes. The other type is called type 2 diabetes, and is where the Insulin is produced, but your body is not using it for some reason. In this case, people can either not take any medication (i.e, diet and exercise), take tablets, or in some more extreme cases take Insulin injections. A gross oversimplification, and not in line with modern thinking on what diabetes is or on the variety of methods of treatment, which change over time for any one diabetic. This tends to happen in more older people who are sometimes obese. A common medical error is to assume that if two symptoms occur together then one is the cause of the other. It is not and never has been true. Obesity is certainly linked with diabetes. There is no certainty that obesity CAUSES diabetes or that diabetes CAUSES obesity. Both could be the result of some other cause. Nor is the genetics of diabetes or its (apparently) increasing incidence in the world a simple cause/effect relationship. Studies have shown, for example, that in some tribes of native americans (redskins, to the politically incorrect) where there was no record of diabetes a few generations ago there is now a virtually 100% incidence of diabetes. An argument is that the pre-diabetic metabolism has a survival value in some kinds of cold conditions, especially where hunting does not involve swift movement. In those conditions a thick layer of blubber acts as both insulation and 'slow' energy store. So people with a pre-diabetic metabolism will preferentially survive to breeding age, and hence the genes for diabetes will be endemic in the population. Feast-and-famine keeps the diabetes more or less under control at the pre-clinical stage. There is no pay-off in actual Type II diabetes if normal age at death is under 40 and the Type II cuts in at over 45. Then the situation changes. There is no famine to use up reserves of blubber, and cold weather hunting is no longer necessary. 'Modern medicine' allows most of the tribe to survive to 40, 50, 60, even older. So in a couple of generations the apparent incidence of diabetes goes from 0% to 100%. There is no way that could be a genetic change. Worse still, diabetes is not actually a disease! It is the name of a symptom. That symptom can arise from interference at many different steps in metabolic pathways; and that means there are as many diseases as there are steps in which the metabolism can go wrong. That is also why some treatments work for some patients but not others. They might have the same symptoms but they don't have the same disease. For the ladies, it is worth noting that some women (usually comfortably plump) become diabetic when they get pregnant. In most cases the diabetes disappears after they give birth. That really puts the cat amongst the pigeons on all simplistic descriptions and theories about diabetes. Worse still there is a correlation between nature of profession and the incidence of diabetes. It is independent of genetics and lifestyle. It so happens that the profession with the highest incidence of diabetes is organic chemistry, my own first profession. That points to some chemical we handle in the labs being weakly diabetogenic. Last I heard, nobody had found which chemical it is. If you want more info look at www.diabetes.org.uk or read the diabetes newsgroups uk.people.support.diabetes or alt.support.diabetes.uk (which is where the OP should have made his post originally imho). Ah! This is how moderation would work, is it? You wouldn't have let me post the foregoing on your moderated disability group. You'd have insisted on it going elsewhere. But I think it more useful to put it in front of people who are not dedicated specialists in diabetic matters rather than in front of those who are already deeply involved. In this group I can exercise my judgement. In your world of moderation, I can't. This is only scratching the surface, and I am sure that someone more knowledgable than me will be along to give you more advice. I'd already given the advice before you posted your scratchings. I'll repeat it. Anybody who insists on buying special (expensive) 'diabetic bread' is either mad or being conned. Portion control of perfectly ordinary, cheap, bread will achieve all that is necessary. There isn't any reason why 'bread' in the form of jam doughnuts shouldn't be eaten, but the portions would have to be so small there wouldn't be any enjoyment in it, which is why it is pointless eating any high-sugar flour-based product. In my opinion, the tastiest way to go for calorie control is in the direction of high-fibre wholemeal bread with interesting additives. Some can be bought commercially. Making your own is a tad pricier but allows the option of juggling tastes to meet personal preferences. I mentioned a brown loaf I make with three different nuts and a large amount of orange zest soaked in whisky. It's a bit like having bread and marmalade without any of the sugar in the marmalade. There's another one where the main additive is ripe old stilton. It goes very well with some soups. There are many more, but they all carry the same warning. All of them hot out of the machine smell and taste wonderful. It needs discipline to count the calories and not have another slice, and another, and ... . There is no getting away with excuses about the vitamins, minerals and fibre which have been added and are good for you. You still have to count the carbohydrates actually in the mix. A diet suitable for diabetics does not have to be dull; nor unnecessarily expensive. Don Hth, Andrew. -- Dr D P Moody, Ashwood, Exeter Cross, Liverton, Newton Abbot, Devon, England TQ12 6EY Tel: +44(0) 1626 821725 Fax: +44(0) 1626 824912 |
where to buy diabetic bread in London?
In message , Andrew Hodgson
writes There are two types of diabetes, one where the Insulin is not produced at all (caused by an auto-imune problem I think) which is called type 1 diabetes. This happens in younger children, and you must take medication (Insulin injections) for this type of diabetes. The other type is called type 2 diabetes, and is where the Insulin is produced, but your body is not using it for some reason. In this case, people can either not take any medication (i.e, diet and exercise), take tablets, or in some more extreme cases take Insulin injections. A gross oversimplification, and not in line with modern thinking on what diabetes is or on the variety of methods of treatment, which change over time for any one diabetic. This tends to happen in more older people who are sometimes obese. A common medical error is to assume that if two symptoms occur together then one is the cause of the other. It is not and never has been true. Obesity is certainly linked with diabetes. There is no certainty that obesity CAUSES diabetes or that diabetes CAUSES obesity. Both could be the result of some other cause. Nor is the genetics of diabetes or its (apparently) increasing incidence in the world a simple cause/effect relationship. Studies have shown, for example, that in some tribes of native americans (redskins, to the politically incorrect) where there was no record of diabetes a few generations ago there is now a virtually 100% incidence of diabetes. An argument is that the pre-diabetic metabolism has a survival value in some kinds of cold conditions, especially where hunting does not involve swift movement. In those conditions a thick layer of blubber acts as both insulation and 'slow' energy store. So people with a pre-diabetic metabolism will preferentially survive to breeding age, and hence the genes for diabetes will be endemic in the population. Feast-and-famine keeps the diabetes more or less under control at the pre-clinical stage. There is no pay-off in actual Type II diabetes if normal age at death is under 40 and the Type II cuts in at over 45. Then the situation changes. There is no famine to use up reserves of blubber, and cold weather hunting is no longer necessary. 'Modern medicine' allows most of the tribe to survive to 40, 50, 60, even older. So in a couple of generations the apparent incidence of diabetes goes from 0% to 100%. There is no way that could be a genetic change. Worse still, diabetes is not actually a disease! It is the name of a symptom. That symptom can arise from interference at many different steps in metabolic pathways; and that means there are as many diseases as there are steps in which the metabolism can go wrong. That is also why some treatments work for some patients but not others. They might have the same symptoms but they don't have the same disease. For the ladies, it is worth noting that some women (usually comfortably plump) become diabetic when they get pregnant. In most cases the diabetes disappears after they give birth. That really puts the cat amongst the pigeons on all simplistic descriptions and theories about diabetes. Worse still there is a correlation between nature of profession and the incidence of diabetes. It is independent of genetics and lifestyle. It so happens that the profession with the highest incidence of diabetes is organic chemistry, my own first profession. That points to some chemical we handle in the labs being weakly diabetogenic. Last I heard, nobody had found which chemical it is. If you want more info look at www.diabetes.org.uk or read the diabetes newsgroups uk.people.support.diabetes or alt.support.diabetes.uk (which is where the OP should have made his post originally imho). Ah! This is how moderation would work, is it? You wouldn't have let me post the foregoing on your moderated disability group. You'd have insisted on it going elsewhere. But I think it more useful to put it in front of people who are not dedicated specialists in diabetic matters rather than in front of those who are already deeply involved. In this group I can exercise my judgement. In your world of moderation, I can't. This is only scratching the surface, and I am sure that someone more knowledgable than me will be along to give you more advice. I'd already given the advice before you posted your scratchings. I'll repeat it. Anybody who insists on buying special (expensive) 'diabetic bread' is either mad or being conned. Portion control of perfectly ordinary, cheap, bread will achieve all that is necessary. There isn't any reason why 'bread' in the form of jam doughnuts shouldn't be eaten, but the portions would have to be so small there wouldn't be any enjoyment in it, which is why it is pointless eating any high-sugar flour-based product. In my opinion, the tastiest way to go for calorie control is in the direction of high-fibre wholemeal bread with interesting additives. Some can be bought commercially. Making your own is a tad pricier but allows the option of juggling tastes to meet personal preferences. I mentioned a brown loaf I make with three different nuts and a large amount of orange zest soaked in whisky. It's a bit like having bread and marmalade without any of the sugar in the marmalade. There's another one where the main additive is ripe old stilton. It goes very well with some soups. There are many more, but they all carry the same warning. All of them hot out of the machine smell and taste wonderful. It needs discipline to count the calories and not have another slice, and another, and ... . There is no getting away with excuses about the vitamins, minerals and fibre which have been added and are good for you. You still have to count the carbohydrates actually in the mix. A diet suitable for diabetics does not have to be dull; nor unnecessarily expensive. Don Hth, Andrew. -- Dr D P Moody, Ashwood, Exeter Cross, Liverton, Newton Abbot, Devon, England TQ12 6EY Tel: +44(0) 1626 821725 Fax: +44(0) 1626 824912 |
where to buy diabetic bread in London?
Follow-ups set, since this is now moving to a UPD matter.
Don Moody in : In message , Andrew Hodgson writes If you want more info look at www.diabetes.org.uk or read the diabetes newsgroups uk.people.support.diabetes or alt.support.diabetes.uk (which is where the OP should have made his post originally imho). Ah! This is how moderation would work, is it? You wouldn't have let me post the foregoing on your moderated disability group. You'd have insisted on it going elsewhere. But I think it more useful to put it in front of people who are not dedicated specialists in diabetic matters rather than in front of those who are already deeply involved. In this group I can exercise my judgement. In your world of moderation, I can't. No Don, the idea is that someone points the posters to another group if they think they could get more support from that group then the groups they had posted it to. I see no reason (perhaps apart from cross posting) why the original article could not be accepted on a uk.people.disability.moderated group, if one were to exist at all. I was attempting to be helpful, I didn't really think you would respond with a comment like this. This is only scratching the surface, and I am sure that someone more knowledgable than me will be along to give you more advice. I'd already given the advice before you posted your scratchings. You certainly did, but on the bread issue, not the issue to which I responded, which you cut out of your reply. The posted to which I replied wanted to know why someone he knew did not have to take any medication for their condition at all, which is why I responded with the simplistic answer, giving more pointers if they wished to find out more details on the matter. Andrew. |
where to buy diabetic bread in London?
Peter Crosland20/11/03 1:34
The bottom line is that all "special" food products claimed to be beneficial for diabetics are a con and have no medical benefit that cannot be gained from using appropriate quantities of normal foods. It is astonishing that the trading standards authorities have not prosecuted retailers for misrepresenting these products. Peter Crosland This has nothing to do with uk.rec.gardening. It would be very courteous of you all to stop the cross posting. Thank you. -- Sacha (remove the 'x' to email me) |
where to buy diabetic bread in London?
Peter Crosland20/11/03 1:34
The bottom line is that all "special" food products claimed to be beneficial for diabetics are a con and have no medical benefit that cannot be gained from using appropriate quantities of normal foods. It is astonishing that the trading standards authorities have not prosecuted retailers for misrepresenting these products. Peter Crosland This has nothing to do with uk.rec.gardening. It would be very courteous of you all to stop the cross posting. Thank you. -- Sacha (remove the 'x' to email me) |
where to buy diabetic bread in London?
"Sacha" wrote in message ... Peter Crosland20/11/03 1:34 The bottom line is that all "special" food products claimed to be beneficial for diabetics are a con and have no medical benefit that cannot be gained from using appropriate quantities of normal foods. It is astonishing that the trading standards authorities have not prosecuted retailers for misrepresenting these products. Peter Crosland This has nothing to do with uk.rec.gardening. It would be very courteous of you all to stop the cross posting. Thank you. -- Sacha (remove the 'x' to email me) ....welcome to ull and ulk sacha , now if you don't mind, just ignor the thread :) That reminds me, whats the best way to prune back roses ? -- -- -- Nutmeg Nutmeg Productions Ltd www.nutmegproductions.com competitions/ cams / jokes / caricatures of you lot :) |
where to buy diabetic bread in London?
In message , David Hill
writes "..........My neighbour is diabetic and has been buying expensive imported diabetic bread. Does anyone know where this can be bought in London at reasonable prices? ....." I presume she has contact with a Diabetic clinic locally. She should ask their advice. This site may help a little with contacts http://www.diabetes.org.uk/home.htm Thanks, this is one of the very few intelligent answers I've had. My neighbour is now in hospital - for the 4th time in as many weeks. -- Alexander Baron http://www.abaron.demon.co.uk/ |
where to buy diabetic bread in London?
On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 23:07:55 +0000, Sacha
wrote: Peter Crosland20/11/03 1:34 . uk The bottom line is that all "special" food products claimed to be beneficial for diabetics are a con and have no medical benefit that cannot be gained from using appropriate quantities of normal foods. It is astonishing that the trading standards authorities have not prosecuted retailers for misrepresenting these products. Peter Crosland This has nothing to do with uk.rec.gardening. It would be very courteous of you all to stop the cross posting. Thank you. You dont have Diabetic Gardeners ? |
where to buy diabetic bread in London?
On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 23:17:28 -0000, "Nutmeg"
wrote: ...welcome to ull and ulk sacha , now if you don't mind, just ignor the thread :) That reminds me, whats the best way to prune back roses ? With a carving knife or axe dear |
where to buy diabetic bread in London?
"..........That reminds me, whats the best way to prune back roses ?
With a carving knife or axe dear .........2 Seems that a Hedge trimmer gives very good results. -- David Hill Abacus nurseries www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk |
where to buy diabetic bread in London?
On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 12:16:29 +0000, Tone wrote:
On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 23:07:55 +0000, Sacha wrote: Peter Crosland This has nothing to do with uk.rec.gardening. It would be very courteous of you all to stop the cross posting. Thank you. You dont have Diabetic Gardeners ? Do you visit a garden centre when you are ill? -- Martin |
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