In message , Sacha
writes
PK11/1/04 7:23
$ss1$1@hercule s.btinternet.com

Pam Moore wrote:
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 12:32:02 -0000, "Pete Griffiths"
wrote:


We currently have a new conservatory under construction, and have
been given a vine (no idea what variety!). There are no planting
holes in the floor, but I have heard that a useful alternative is to
plant the vine outside against the wall, and train it through a hole
into the conservatory. The hole would be large enough to accept the
girth of the vine when matured, and would be packed with foam or a
similar material in the meantine. Is this a sensible approach? (One
of my concerns is mice!)

Bob Flowerdew says he now advocates growing vines in big containers
and keeping them inside in summer and outside in winter. Yes that
way round. I forget the reasoning but have heard him say it more than
once on GQT. It is probably in one of his books somewhere.


the plant itself is very hardy - note the alpine vineyards. but the fruit
needs more warmth than many uk summers can provide except for cool climate
vines. My vitis brandt delivers a very healthy crop of small sweet grapes
every year outside in SW19.

Also a large vine is a very hungry plant if allowed to fruit heavily, hence
the practice of top growth inside, root growth outside - eg Hampton court
where the extensive root area is kept clear and manured every year.

pk


In Guernsey, the original 'Guernsey Grape' was Canon Hall. This is rarely
grown there now since the glasshouse industry collapsed but at one time,
Guernsey Grapes were famous and exported in wooden punnets with metal
handles.
We bought one baby vine from Reads three years ago and it's grown a lot. I
hope that *next* year, it will fruit because I have never tasted a better
grape ever, anywhere in the world.

This sounds very interesting. I'm thinking of planting some vines just
to see what they will do up here. Maybe I'll look for this one.
--
Chris Boulby National Collection of Diascias
Please note new email address:

The message
from Alan Gould contains these words:

Yes, grape vines will survive UK winters outside and live to grow again.
They will often flower and begin to bunch up too, but unless they are a
hardy variety bred for that purpose (often with sharp white berries),
they will seldom produce a satisfactory crop of fruit. There are some
commercial vineyards in S& SW UK where local conditions permit.

There are two excellent vinyards nearby (Norfolk) and one of them
produced a white wine which beat all comers in an international forum to
win first prize in its class a few years ago.

There are several commercial vinyards in Suffolk too, and, well, all
over the country. I know of a good one in Kent too.

We have prolific crops from three varieties of vine in greenhouse and
poly-tunnel. They all propagate well from cuttings, but none have ever
done much more than survive outside.

Black hamburg does well outside, if grown against a south-facing wall. I
have one ready to plant, and am just amassing a lot of bones to bung
into the pit I've dug for it. This will climb up the south-facing gable
end of my cottage, sharing space with a Brown Turkey fig. Exit ivy!

http:www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/hsefront.jpg

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from "Pete Griffiths" contains these words:

We currently have a new conservatory under construction, and have been given
a vine (no idea what variety!). There are no planting holes in the floor,
but I have heard that a useful alternative is to plant the vine outside
against the wall, and train it through a hole into the conservatory. The
hole would be large enough to accept the girth of the vine when matured, and
would be packed with foam or a similar material in the meantine. Is this a
sensible approach? (One of my concerns is mice!)

Vines should always be planted outside a conservatory, and it is better
too, to plant them outside a greenhouse.

Mouse access could be a problem. Some perforated zinc pieces cut so they
overlap and get pushed out as the stem thickens might be an answer.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from "Mike" contains these words:

When I were a wee lad, my father brought home a young vine and he had been
told the same thing. We had a large Victorian Conservatory which had a gap
of about 2 inches all round the bottom. He dug a hole on the outside, put a
dead rabbit in the bottom, don't ask, that's what he was told to do, covered
that with some soil and then planted the vine, bringing the vine under the
side walls and then trained it up and under the roof. Masses of leaves, and
quite a bit of fruit, nothing special.

The French advocate a dead donkey. (It supplies slow-release phosphates.)

Much later I bought a house which also had a Conservatory , this too had a
vine planted in the same way. Tons of leaves, tons of very very small
grapes, many of which went mouldy before being ready to eat.

Hmmmm.

Hopefully, some more experienced Vine Gardeners will point out what was
wrong with our vines so you don't make the same mistakes. Toooooooooo many
leaves. Tooooooooooo small grapes. Mould.

Yes. Too much nitrogen - mulch with grass cuttings or straw. Maybe not
enough water, and almost certainly not enough ventilation. Grapes don't
like too much humidity.

Also, you need to get a good book on viticulture, which will tell you
how, where and when to prune and thin. This is important.

As a rule of thumb, in the late winter, early spring (before the buds
start to burst) prune off all the secondary laterals, leaving a good
full bud, and rubbing out any weedy ones, so you are left with just the
structure of the vine.

When the flowers appear, count three or four leaves after it, then
remove the growth beyond there. Any laterals with no flowers, remove.
Remove also any new shoots from the stem which you don't want to train
into new laterals.

Then, if you're really finnicky, and are thinking of showing your
grapes, grapes may be thinned out from the bunches when they are small.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from Pam Moore contains these words:

Bob Flowerdew says he now advocates growing vines in big containers
and keeping them inside in summer and outside in winter. Yes that
way round. I forget the reasoning but have heard him say it more than
once on GQT. It is probably in one of his books somewhere.

The reasoning is that for most people, a vine can grow too big. My
response to this thinking is that knowing how to prune a vine should
take care of that aspect.

The overwintering outside is a good idea as it tends to kill off a lot
of pests and diseases.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from "PK" contains these words:

Also a large vine is a very hungry plant if allowed to fruit heavily, hence
the practice of top growth inside, root growth outside - eg Hampton court
where the extensive root area is kept clear and manured every year.

Manured? That's totally wrong for a vine. Bonemeal or hoof and horn,
yes, but manure just makes for lots of greenery and few bunches of
grapes.

Shoot the gardener and bury him under a vine.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from Chris Boulby contains these words:

We bought one baby vine from Reads three years ago and it's grown a lot. I
hope that *next* year, it will fruit because I have never tasted a better
grape ever, anywhere in the world.

This sounds very interesting. I'm thinking of planting some vines just
to see what they will do up here. Maybe I'll look for this one.

I've earmarked this too. Sounds as if it would be worth a try here.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from "Ophelia" contains these words:
"martin" wrote in message
...

Bob Flowerdew says he now advocates growing vines in big containers
and keeping them inside in summer and outside in winter. Yes that
way round. I forget the reasoning but have heard him say it more than
once on GQT. It is probably in one of his books somewhere.

Our vines grow in the garden without any protection.

You get better weather there than we do in Scotland

I'm not sure that he does. You've got the Gulf Stream where you are. I
can remember years on Lewis when we never had a frost - apart from on
the mountains.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

The message
from Chris Boulby contains these words:

It was the old-fashioned way of planting grape vines. They are in natural
soil and receive rain water - unless of course you have to take a hand
during a drought. Sounds a good approach to me.
Of course, where you live depends on whether or not you would need to
protect the roots in winter - I'm sure others can advise you on that.

Does one really need to protect grape roots in winter?

No.

If so, what
from? I know they grow successfully in the Niagara fruit belt in
Southern Ontario, where winter can be both severe (down to -20C at
times) and sometimes quite wet if the snow thaws. The main reason for
growing grapes here under glass may be to give them more summer warmth
to ripen them, but others may know more than I do about this subject. I
have grown them completely outdoors when I lived in South Yorkshire, and
even managed to ripen them. We only got three bottles of wine from our
one vine :-)

My vine at the other place survived really low temperatures - it was as
cold outside as my deep freeze was inside one night in (IIRC January
1979) - there was ice on the walls inside the house.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

In article , Chris Boulby
writes

I hear what you are saying Alan, and I fully agree that you will get a
poor crop if they are not grown under glass in many parts of the UK, but
it is the lack of summer sunshine and heat rather than winter cold and
damp that prevents them from doing well. Are there any known to be
tender in this regard?

The one I grew in S. Yorks was a German red grape and it had good sized
berries on it, sorry I don't know its name now. But I would obviously
have got a better crop if the foliage part of the plant had been kept
under glass (or polytunnel).

This is an interesting point. We crop Black Hamburgh, Madeliene Sylvaner
and Blaue Traube (?) very well in our greenhouse. The last was given to
us by some German friends from Konigswinter who were sure it would do
well outside because it does so in regions of Germany further North than
we are on the south bank of the river Humber. It is similar to Black
Hamburgh, but with slightly smaller, redder and earlier fruit.

Within a few feet of that greenhouse is an older, partly dismantled and
de-glazed greenhouse where we grew Black Hamburgh and the German grape
for years. The vines still grow very well there, but even in last year's
summer, no bunches matured to edibility. My feeling is that height above
sea level could be a factor. Northern European vines seem to do well on
high ground, but we are only a few feel above sea level and that could
make the difference.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, Chris Boulby wrote:

I hear what you are saying Alan, and I fully agree that you will get a
poor crop if they are not grown under glass in many parts of the UK,
but it is the lack of summer sunshine and heat rather than winter cold
and damp that prevents them from doing well. Are there any known to be
tender in this regard?

Frosts won't kill the vine but late frosts can kill the flower trusses
and then you can say goodbye to the crop for that year. Although the
vine will grow new shoots, either they won't have any more flower
trusses on the new shoots or, if they do, the ensuing grapes won't ripen
until too late in our climate.

However my experience is that any vine growing outside against a wall is
usually well-enough protected from frost. I have never lost any grapes
from frost in that situation.

There are ways that viticulturists have of protecting their vines
against frost. In the Chablis region they have a small "night-light"
type of candle underneath the vines when frost is predicted!

But, to answer the point that Chris made above, there are very many
types of vine available now bred especially for our climate which will
grow and produce a good harvest in the open up as far as the Midlands in
all but the very worst summers. Many will even do well in the North of
England.

--
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Internet: | writing from |
| Fidonet: David Rance 2:252/110 | Caversham, |
| BBS: telnet://mesnil.demon.co.uk | Reading, UK |
+-------------------------------------------------------+

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004, Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

Bob Flowerdew says he now advocates growing vines in big containers
and keeping them inside in summer and outside in winter. Yes that
way round. I forget the reasoning but have heard him say it more than
once on GQT. It is probably in one of his books somewhere.

The reasoning is that for most people, a vine can grow too big. My
response to this thinking is that knowing how to prune a vine should
take care of that aspect.

The fact is that vines grow like weeds. It's not unknown for the canes
on a mature vine to grow twenty feet in a season! They need pruning
every few weeks in the growing season otherwise you will end up with a
mass of tangled canes and foliage.

BUT...... don't try to prune mature wood in the growing season. Cut back
only green shoots. This is the time of year for pruning mature wood and
for taking cuttings. Vines are the easiest plants I know of for
reproduction by cuttings.

Which reminds me.........

--
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Internet: | writing from |
| Fidonet: David Rance 2:252/110 | Caversham, |
| BBS: telnet://mesnil.demon.co.uk | Reading, UK |
+-------------------------------------------------------+

On Mon, 12 Jan 2004, Alan Gould wrote:

Within a few feet of that greenhouse is an older, partly dismantled and
de-glazed greenhouse where we grew Black Hamburgh and the German grape
for years. The vines still grow very well there, but even in last year's
summer, no bunches matured to edibility. My feeling is that height above
sea level could be a factor. Northern European vines seem to do well on
high ground, but we are only a few feel above sea level and that could
make the difference.

That shouldn't make any difference. Many northerly vineyards on the
continent are on the banks of such rivers as the Mosel and the Rhine.
And in France most of their northerly vineyards are not far from river
valleys. The warmth from the river water stops the temperature dropping
too much at night.

--
+-------------------------------------------------------+
| Internet: | writing from |
| Fidonet: David Rance 2:252/110 | Caversham, |
| BBS: telnet://mesnil.demon.co.uk | Reading, UK |
+-------------------------------------------------------+

"Sacha" wrote in message
.. .
Pete Griffiths11/1/04 12:32

Hi,

We currently have a new conservatory under construction, and have been
given
a vine (no idea what variety!). There are no planting holes in the
floor,
but I have heard that a useful alternative is to plant the vine outside
against the wall, and train it through a hole into the conservatory. The
hole would be large enough to accept the girth of the vine when matured,
and
would be packed with foam or a similar material in the meantine. Is this
a
sensible approach? (One of my concerns is mice!)

It was the old-fashioned way of planting grape vines. They are in natural
soil and receive rain water - unless of course you have to take a hand
during a drought. Sounds a good approach to me.
Of course, where you live depends on whether or not you would need to
protect the roots in winter - I'm sure others can advise you on that.

--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the 'x' to email me)

I agree its a good way of getting reliable crops, you may also consider
letting some stems grow outside on wires where they will give shade in
summer (vines are late into leaf) you could even get some bunches some years
outside but you are far more weather dependant.
Do try and discover the variety before going to a lot of trouble, some are
not worth growing for grapes being used mainly for foliage effect
--
Charlie, gardening in Cornwall.
http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of National Plant Collection of Clematis viticella (cvs)

Chris Boulby11/1/04 11:02

In message , Sacha
writes
snip
In Guernsey, the original 'Guernsey Grape' was Canon Hall. This is rarely
grown there now since the glasshouse industry collapsed but at one time,
Guernsey Grapes were famous and exported in wooden punnets with metal
handles.
We bought one baby vine from Reads three years ago and it's grown a lot. I
hope that *next* year, it will fruit because I have never tasted a better
grape ever, anywhere in the world.

This sounds very interesting. I'm thinking of planting some vines just
to see what they will do up here. Maybe I'll look for this one.

One site says that it 'needs some heat' but doesn't say whether that means
just in winter or ayr, so you might want to check on that. I'm hoping to
get another to plant in our prop. house which is gently heated all the time.
It will be interesting to see if it's more vigorous and fruits earlier.
--

Sacha
(remove the 'x' to email me)