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  #226   Report Post  
Old 24-02-2004, 05:18 AM
Franz Heymann
 
Posts: n/a
Default found a mouse in my loft!


"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

From personal experience, no there is *no* physical pain involved, as

I
have
now stated at least three times.


But you haven't consumed enough to kill you ...

From Franz's last post I would guess that he has.
However, you wouldn't have seen that before you wrote the above.


A wee reread on the part of Jaques d'Alltrades might be indicated. I
wasn't resurrected from the dead. I recovered in time.

Franz


  #227   Report Post  
Old 24-02-2004, 05:18 AM
Franz Heymann
 
Posts: n/a
Default found a mouse in my loft!


"martin" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 09:15:08 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:32:03 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


Now I ask you provide the evidence that an overdose of warfarin "kills
rodents in the most horrendous manner imaginable"


PLONK him Franz. The guy is a troll.


OK. But it is a bit late. I have already placed some more responses in the
post.

Franz


  #228   Report Post  
Old 24-02-2004, 05:18 AM
Franz Heymann
 
Posts: n/a
Default found a mouse in my loft!


"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...

"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...

"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 21:32:03 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 14:37:15 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:47:21 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:14:03 +0100, martin

wrote:

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:10:32 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jaques d'Alltrades"

wrote
in
message
.. .


Warfarin-based poisons are not particularly unpleasant.

The
victims
just
get weaker and weaker and lapse into a coma.

The Warfarin tends to prevent the blood clotting, and the
passage
of
food down the gut abrades the villi (a design feature to

allow
nutrients
to be absorbed through the walls of the blood vessels)

and
the
animal
loses blood internally, and weakens and dies. There is no

pain
involved.

How do you know?

because it's used in humans as an anti clotting agent.

The village idiot mentality is astounding!

That sounds like the voice of experience.

Using a substance medicinally is not the same as using it to

kill.
If
you
fed enough Warfarin to a human to kill him would it cause pain?

Yes. It is a slow and agonizing death, rat or man would bleed to

death
from the inside. The fact that very minute doses of poison are

used
very successfully in medicine has nothing to do with it's use to

kill
something.

Somebody said, "There is no pain involved." and I asked how that

waas
known.
It seems now that there IS pain involved.

Precisely.

Now who's the idiot?

The one who thinks there is no pain involved because grandad uses

it
to ease a heart condition!

It does not "ease a heart condition" and I have not ever heard it

being
used
for that. *I*, not my granddad, have been using warfarin daily for

more
than a dozen years. *I* did once, by mistake, overuse it suffiently

to
be
able to state categorically that there is no physical pain involved

before a
coma sets in.

I just don't believe the dummies coming out of the woodwork on this.
Why in the world do you think your medicine dosage of warfarin has any
connection at all with the dosage that kills rodents in the most
horrendous manner imaginable?
You alone have taken village idiots to
new heights of ignorance! sheesh......


Repeating nonsense ad inf does not convert it into a truth.


Quite. So you might as well stop repeating yourself :-)

I have provided you with the evidence that I experience no physical pain
when I had taken enough Warfarin to take me to the verge of a coma.


You have not provided evidence.

You've given anecdotal accounts ad nauseam of what you say is your
experience. That's neither evidence nor proof.


Your understanding of the phrase "anecdotal evidence" needs polishing.
*I* am the very firm evidence of what *I* have observed to happen to
*myself*.
*I* am still here. *I* did not experience any physical pain, only mental
anguish.


Over and out.

Had I
had any more, the most likely outcome would have been that I would have
become comatose quite soon, and would have died of brain haemorrage

quite
soon after that. At what time would I have experienced this

horrendously
painful death of which you keep talking?

Now I ask you provide the evidence that an overdose of warfarin "kills
rodents in the most horrendous manner imaginable"


I didn't say that, I merely asked how it was known that it would be a
painsless death. I might easily have asked how it was known that it would

be
an horrendous death.


I did not say *you* did. Please count the attribution marks.

Franz




  #229   Report Post  
Old 24-02-2004, 08:08 AM
Jaques d'Alltrades
 
Posts: n/a
Default found a mouse in my loft!

The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these words:

Indeed, it is used in medicine in small doses to thin the blood in
certain conditions. My mother took it after having a stroke.


That soundsalmost like a case of closing the stable door after the horse
has bolted. Warfarin cannot disperse an existing clot. It can only prevent
a clot from forming in the first instance.


To prevent a recurrence, mayhap?

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
  #230   Report Post  
Old 24-02-2004, 08:11 AM
Jaques d'Alltrades
 
Posts: n/a
Default found a mouse in my loft!

The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these words:

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

From personal experience, no there is *no* physical pain involved, as

I
have
now stated at least three times.


But you haven't consumed enough to kill you ...

From Franz's last post I would guess that he has.
However, you wouldn't have seen that before you wrote the above.


A wee reread on the part of Jaques d'Alltrades might be indicated. I
wasn't resurrected from the dead. I recovered in time.


No. I presumed you sought medical help, otherwise you might/would have died.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/


  #231   Report Post  
Old 24-02-2004, 08:12 AM
Jaques d'Alltrades
 
Posts: n/a
Default found a mouse in my loft!

The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these words:

Indeed, it is used in medicine in small doses to thin the blood in
certain conditions. My mother took it after having a stroke.


That soundsalmost like a case of closing the stable door after the horse
has bolted. Warfarin cannot disperse an existing clot. It can only prevent
a clot from forming in the first instance.


To prevent a recurrence, mayhap?

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
  #232   Report Post  
Old 24-02-2004, 08:18 AM
Jaques d'Alltrades
 
Posts: n/a
Default found a mouse in my loft!

The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these words:

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

From personal experience, no there is *no* physical pain involved, as

I
have
now stated at least three times.


But you haven't consumed enough to kill you ...

From Franz's last post I would guess that he has.
However, you wouldn't have seen that before you wrote the above.


A wee reread on the part of Jaques d'Alltrades might be indicated. I
wasn't resurrected from the dead. I recovered in time.


No. I presumed you sought medical help, otherwise you might/would have died.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
  #233   Report Post  
Old 24-02-2004, 11:00 AM
martin
 
Posts: n/a
Default found a mouse in my loft!

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 23:23:43 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

From personal experience, no there is *no* physical pain involved, as

I
have
now stated at least three times.


But you haven't consumed enough to kill you ...

From Franz's last post I would guess that he has.
However, you wouldn't have seen that before you wrote the above.


A wee reread on the part of Jaques d'Alltrades might be indicated. I
wasn't resurrected from the dead. I recovered in time.


Duh! and I thought it was Easter already :-)
--

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit;
Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad
  #235   Report Post  
Old 24-02-2004, 02:57 PM
Franz Heymann
 
Posts: n/a
Default found a mouse in my loft!


"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these

words:

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in

message
...
The message
from "Mary Fisher" contains these words:

From personal experience, no there is *no* physical pain involved,

as
I
have
now stated at least three times.

But you haven't consumed enough to kill you ...

From Franz's last post I would guess that he has.
However, you wouldn't have seen that before you wrote the above.


A wee reread on the part of Jaques d'Alltrades might be indicated. I
wasn't resurrected from the dead. I recovered in time.


No. I presumed you sought medical help, otherwise you might/would have

died.

I did not. I just stopped taking warfarin completely and waited. The crisis
was over in about 24 hours.
I say, this story is getting to be more than boring.
Let's revert to talking about gardening.

Franz




  #236   Report Post  
Old 24-02-2004, 03:02 PM
Franz Heymann
 
Posts: n/a
Default found a mouse in my loft!


"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these

words:

Indeed, it is used in medicine in small doses to thin the blood in
certain conditions. My mother took it after having a stroke.


That soundsalmost like a case of closing the stable door after the

horse
has bolted. Warfarin cannot disperse an existing clot. It can only

prevent
a clot from forming in the first instance.


To prevent a recurrence, mayhap?


Granted.

Franz


  #237   Report Post  
Old 25-02-2004, 06:08 PM
martin
 
Posts: n/a
Default o/t : found a mouse in my loft!

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 21:58:12 GMT, Janet Baraclough ..
wrote:

The message
from Nick contains these words:

My loft is fairly spacious and boarded out but surrounded with loads of
bin liners with clothes


Ideal breeding habitat for mice.

are mice known to inhabit loft spaces


Yep...we heard ours racing about the loft in hobnail boots at night.
Then honey started dripping through the bedroom ceiling, and it turned
out the mice had found a bees nest under the loft insulation.

or could this just be one mouse
that has become trapped in the loft for some reason?


IME, there is no such thing as "just one" mouse :-). Iirc, females can
produce a litter every 6 weeks all year round.


.... with a little help from their friends, in hobnail boots.
--

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit;
Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad
  #238   Report Post  
Old 25-02-2004, 06:21 PM
martin
 
Posts: n/a
Default o/t : found a mouse in my loft!

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 21:58:12 GMT, Janet Baraclough ..
wrote:

The message
from Nick contains these words:

My loft is fairly spacious and boarded out but surrounded with loads of
bin liners with clothes


Ideal breeding habitat for mice.

are mice known to inhabit loft spaces


Yep...we heard ours racing about the loft in hobnail boots at night.
Then honey started dripping through the bedroom ceiling, and it turned
out the mice had found a bees nest under the loft insulation.

or could this just be one mouse
that has become trapped in the loft for some reason?


IME, there is no such thing as "just one" mouse :-). Iirc, females can
produce a litter every 6 weeks all year round.


.... with a little help from their friends, in hobnail boots.
--

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit;
Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad
  #239   Report Post  
Old 25-02-2004, 06:37 PM
martin
 
Posts: n/a
Default o/t : found a mouse in my loft!

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 21:58:12 GMT, Janet Baraclough ..
wrote:

The message
from Nick contains these words:

My loft is fairly spacious and boarded out but surrounded with loads of
bin liners with clothes


Ideal breeding habitat for mice.

are mice known to inhabit loft spaces


Yep...we heard ours racing about the loft in hobnail boots at night.
Then honey started dripping through the bedroom ceiling, and it turned
out the mice had found a bees nest under the loft insulation.

or could this just be one mouse
that has become trapped in the loft for some reason?


IME, there is no such thing as "just one" mouse :-). Iirc, females can
produce a litter every 6 weeks all year round.


.... with a little help from their friends, in hobnail boots.
--

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit;
Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad
  #240   Report Post  
Old 27-02-2004, 11:27 AM
Thes
 
Posts: n/a
Default found a mouse in my loft!



martin wrote:
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 14:42:44 +0000, Jack Hammer
wrote:


On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 14:37:15 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
...

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:47:21 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
om...

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:14:03 +0100, martin wrote:


On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:10:32 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in

message

. uk...


Warfarin-based poisons are not particularly unpleasant. The victims

just

get weaker and weaker and lapse into a coma.

The Warfarin tends to prevent the blood clotting, and the passage

of

food down the gut abrades the villi (a design feature to allow

nutrients

to be absorbed through the walls of the blood vessels) and the

animal

loses blood internally, and weakens and dies. There is no pain

involved.

How do you know?

because it's used in humans as an anti clotting agent.

The village idiot mentality is astounding!

That sounds like the voice of experience.

Using a substance medicinally is not the same as using it to kill. If you
fed enough Warfarin to a human to kill him would it cause pain?

Yes. It is a slow and agonizing death, rat or man would bleed to death
from the inside. The fact that very minute doses of poison are used
very successfully in medicine has nothing to do with it's use to kill
something.

Somebody said, "There is no pain involved." and I asked how that waas known.
It seems now that there IS pain involved.


Precisely.


Now who's the idiot?


The one who thinks there is no pain involved because grandad uses it
to ease a heart condition!



Both my granddads have been dead for decades, I said it caused no pain
because when I googled for the symptoms of warfarin poisoning there is
no mention of pain. Why let facts ruin a good argument, when it's so
much easier to call somebody an idiot.



Taking your advice led me to this, from the Inchem Chemical Safety pages:

4.4.1 Early symptoms of poisoning - Acute poisoning from a single dose
of warfarin is unlikely. On repeated exposure symptoms may
occur from the sixth or seventh day and include back and
abdominal pain followed by vomiting, nose and gum bleeding,
massive bruising and haematoma fomation.

I guess the fact that one source did not mention pain doesn't mean there
is none. But who knows, perhaps this info is wrong too!

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