martin wrote:
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 14:42:44 +0000, Jack Hammer
wrote:


On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 14:37:15 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
...

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 13:47:21 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
om...

On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 11:14:03 +0100, martin wrote:


On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 10:10:32 -0000, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in

message

. uk...


Warfarin-based poisons are not particularly unpleasant. The victims

just

get weaker and weaker and lapse into a coma.

The Warfarin tends to prevent the blood clotting, and the passage

of

food down the gut abrades the villi (a design feature to allow

nutrients

to be absorbed through the walls of the blood vessels) and the

animal

loses blood internally, and weakens and dies. There is no pain

involved.

How do you know?

because it's used in humans as an anti clotting agent.

The village idiot mentality is astounding!

That sounds like the voice of experience.

Using a substance medicinally is not the same as using it to kill. If you
fed enough Warfarin to a human to kill him would it cause pain?

Yes. It is a slow and agonizing death, rat or man would bleed to death
from the inside. The fact that very minute doses of poison are used
very successfully in medicine has nothing to do with it's use to kill
something.

Somebody said, "There is no pain involved." and I asked how that waas known.
It seems now that there IS pain involved.

Precisely.


Now who's the idiot?

The one who thinks there is no pain involved because grandad uses it
to ease a heart condition!



Both my granddads have been dead for decades, I said it caused no pain
because when I googled for the symptoms of warfarin poisoning there is
no mention of pain. Why let facts ruin a good argument, when it's so
much easier to call somebody an idiot.



Taking your advice led me to this, from the Inchem Chemical Safety pages:

4.4.1 Early symptoms of poisoning - Acute poisoning from a single dose
of warfarin is unlikely. On repeated exposure symptoms may
occur from the sixth or seventh day and include back and
abdominal pain followed by vomiting, nose and gum bleeding,
massive bruising and haematoma fomation.

I guess the fact that one source did not mention pain doesn't mean there
is none. But who knows, perhaps this info is wrong too!

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:10:06 +0000, Thes
wrote:



Taking your advice led me to this, from the Inchem Chemical Safety pages:

4.4.1 Early symptoms of poisoning - Acute poisoning from a single dose
of warfarin is unlikely. On repeated exposure symptoms may
occur from the sixth or seventh day and include back and
abdominal pain followed by vomiting, nose and gum bleeding,
massive bruising and haematoma fomation.

I guess the fact that one source did not mention pain doesn't mean there
is none. But who knows, perhaps this info is wrong too!

After reading a lot of references on the Inchem site, I conclude that
if Haemarthrosis occurs first then there is pain, but if a coma
occurs first there isn't.

http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims...ical%20effects

Haemarthrosis may occur and cause
joint pain.

http://www.inchem.org/documents/hsg/...tionNumber:2.6

A WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION report

2.6 Effects on Laboratory Mammals and in vitro Test Systems

The acute oral toxicity of warfarin for rats is high. Reported
LD50
values range from 11 to 323 mg/kg, females being more susceptible
than
males. For classification purposes, the accepted WHO LD50 value is
10 mg/kg. Genetic resistance to warfarin among rodents and humans
has
been reported. Signs of poisoning are those associated with an
increased tendency to bleed.

One study on rats showed some developmental effects. There are no
data
on mutagenicity.

In feeding studies on rats, the only effect found was associated
with
anticoagulant action.

2.7 Effects on Humans

Vitamin K functions as an essential element in the synthesis of
several blood coagulation factors. Warfarin inhibits this process
and
consequently affects the blood coagulation mechanisms. Prolonged
inhibition of the vitamin K synthesis will lead to severe bleeding
and
death, if not corrected.

Symptoms of warfarin poisoning begin a few days or weeks after
ingestion. They include nose bleeding, bleeding gums, pallor, and,
sometimes, haematomas around joints and on the buttocks, and blood
in
the urine and faeces. Later, paralysis due to cerebral haemorrhage
and, finally, haemorrhagic shock and death may occur.

Poisoning incidents have been reported. Outbreaks of poisoning
have
been observed in relation to warfarin-contaminated meal and also
in
infants after dermal application of warfarin-contaminated talc. A
case
of poisoning from prolonged skin contact during the preparation of
warfarin baits has also been reported.

Developmental effects known as "warfarin embryopathy" or "fetal
warfarin syndrome" were reported when warfarin was administered as
a
therapeutic agent during pregnancy. No cases of embryopathy
following
the use of warfarin as a rodenticide have been reported.
--

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit;
Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:10:06 +0000, Thes
wrote:



Taking your advice led me to this, from the Inchem Chemical Safety pages:

4.4.1 Early symptoms of poisoning - Acute poisoning from a single dose
of warfarin is unlikely. On repeated exposure symptoms may
occur from the sixth or seventh day and include back and
abdominal pain followed by vomiting, nose and gum bleeding,
massive bruising and haematoma fomation.

I guess the fact that one source did not mention pain doesn't mean there
is none. But who knows, perhaps this info is wrong too!

After reading a lot of references on the Inchem site, I conclude that
if Haemarthrosis occurs first then there is pain, but if a coma
occurs first there isn't.

http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims...ical%20effects

Haemarthrosis may occur and cause
joint pain.

http://www.inchem.org/documents/hsg/...tionNumber:2.6

A WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION report

2.6 Effects on Laboratory Mammals and in vitro Test Systems

The acute oral toxicity of warfarin for rats is high. Reported
LD50
values range from 11 to 323 mg/kg, females being more susceptible
than
males. For classification purposes, the accepted WHO LD50 value is
10 mg/kg. Genetic resistance to warfarin among rodents and humans
has
been reported. Signs of poisoning are those associated with an
increased tendency to bleed.

One study on rats showed some developmental effects. There are no
data
on mutagenicity.

In feeding studies on rats, the only effect found was associated
with
anticoagulant action.

2.7 Effects on Humans

Vitamin K functions as an essential element in the synthesis of
several blood coagulation factors. Warfarin inhibits this process
and
consequently affects the blood coagulation mechanisms. Prolonged
inhibition of the vitamin K synthesis will lead to severe bleeding
and
death, if not corrected.

Symptoms of warfarin poisoning begin a few days or weeks after
ingestion. They include nose bleeding, bleeding gums, pallor, and,
sometimes, haematomas around joints and on the buttocks, and blood
in
the urine and faeces. Later, paralysis due to cerebral haemorrhage
and, finally, haemorrhagic shock and death may occur.

Poisoning incidents have been reported. Outbreaks of poisoning
have
been observed in relation to warfarin-contaminated meal and also
in
infants after dermal application of warfarin-contaminated talc. A
case
of poisoning from prolonged skin contact during the preparation of
warfarin baits has also been reported.

Developmental effects known as "warfarin embryopathy" or "fetal
warfarin syndrome" were reported when warfarin was administered as
a
therapeutic agent during pregnancy. No cases of embryopathy
following
the use of warfarin as a rodenticide have been reported.
--

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit;
Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:10:06 +0000, Thes
wrote:



Taking your advice led me to this, from the Inchem Chemical Safety pages:

4.4.1 Early symptoms of poisoning - Acute poisoning from a single dose
of warfarin is unlikely. On repeated exposure symptoms may
occur from the sixth or seventh day and include back and
abdominal pain followed by vomiting, nose and gum bleeding,
massive bruising and haematoma fomation.

I guess the fact that one source did not mention pain doesn't mean there
is none. But who knows, perhaps this info is wrong too!

After reading a lot of references on the Inchem site, I conclude that
if Haemarthrosis occurs first then there is pain, but if a coma
occurs first there isn't.

http://www.inchem.org/documents/pims...ical%20effects

Haemarthrosis may occur and cause
joint pain.

http://www.inchem.org/documents/hsg/...tionNumber:2.6

A WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION report

2.6 Effects on Laboratory Mammals and in vitro Test Systems

The acute oral toxicity of warfarin for rats is high. Reported
LD50
values range from 11 to 323 mg/kg, females being more susceptible
than
males. For classification purposes, the accepted WHO LD50 value is
10 mg/kg. Genetic resistance to warfarin among rodents and humans
has
been reported. Signs of poisoning are those associated with an
increased tendency to bleed.

One study on rats showed some developmental effects. There are no
data
on mutagenicity.

In feeding studies on rats, the only effect found was associated
with
anticoagulant action.

2.7 Effects on Humans

Vitamin K functions as an essential element in the synthesis of
several blood coagulation factors. Warfarin inhibits this process
and
consequently affects the blood coagulation mechanisms. Prolonged
inhibition of the vitamin K synthesis will lead to severe bleeding
and
death, if not corrected.

Symptoms of warfarin poisoning begin a few days or weeks after
ingestion. They include nose bleeding, bleeding gums, pallor, and,
sometimes, haematomas around joints and on the buttocks, and blood
in
the urine and faeces. Later, paralysis due to cerebral haemorrhage
and, finally, haemorrhagic shock and death may occur.

Poisoning incidents have been reported. Outbreaks of poisoning
have
been observed in relation to warfarin-contaminated meal and also
in
infants after dermal application of warfarin-contaminated talc. A
case
of poisoning from prolonged skin contact during the preparation of
warfarin baits has also been reported.

Developmental effects known as "warfarin embryopathy" or "fetal
warfarin syndrome" were reported when warfarin was administered as
a
therapeutic agent during pregnancy. No cases of embryopathy
following
the use of warfarin as a rodenticide have been reported.
--

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit;
Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad

Mary Fisher23/2/04 9:25


"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 22:10:28 GMT, Jaques d'Alltrades
wrote:

The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains these
words:

(Always set mousetraps facing the wall too.)

Why trap them? It does not cost much to feed them well and they do one
hell
of a lot less damage than cats.

I've had a box of rare books trashed by the little *******s......

They spread crap everywhere and thereby, diseases.

Try keeping your house a little cleaner then. Most of us would spot
mouse shit long before the messies started chewing our books.

I must admit that I thought the same ...

Mary

Did you? Well then I will you that this is a particularly silly remark,
frankly. Our house is as clean as human habitation can reasonably be, so is
that of our elderly neighbour-across-the-churchyard, who is also our only
close neighbour.
I will admit that neither of us actually go into our attics with the bleach
and the vacuum cleaner twice a week - in her case this might be because
she's 86 - in ours it's because nothing in the world would get me up there
but nonetheless, both households get mice in the attics and it is those we
deal with. We've had mice die underneath floorboards (this is a Victorian
house of substantial construction so there's plenty of space down there) and
no, I don't bleach or vacuum the space under the floors, either. Tut.
Books, any papers or fabrics stored in a box anywhere suggests they are not
often looked at or easily accessible and to insult someone by suggesting
their house isn't clean is a pretty low way to score a point. Actually, it's
an exceedingly low way to score a point but perhaps not surprising.

We are in the depths of the countryside and surrounded by farmland, with a
farm and its buildings not far away. We have mice and rats on the Nursery
because they just love the shoots of young plants (very recently we lost 4
seed trays of tomato plants) and we have a company that comes in every 6
weeks during the breeding season to put down bait. Perhaps you think we
should bleach and vacuum the Nursery tunnels and glasshouses, too - perhaps
you think we don't keep them 'clean enough'?

--

Sacha
(remove the weeds to email me)