On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 07:46:05 +0000, Mike McDowall
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 21:56:48 -0000, "Christina Websell"
christina.websell@zoomdotcodotuk wrote:

I have some news that I know you'll be interested in, Mike, about the house
sparrow project. Kate rang me last night, she is now writing up her
conclusions.
The conclusion is, lack of aphids and invertebrates as the main cause of the
house sparrow decline, lack of nestsites also.
Thanks for this Christina. I have discussed this with loads of friends
over the years, and all are agreed that there are far fewer flies of
many kinds than ~30 years ago. The next question is why ?

Too many tidy gardens and houses.
In what way ? I would also consider farmland, but as a farmer I am fed
up of certain conservation organisations who _only_ consider farmland.

I suspect that 30 year period has seen a vast increase in use of
insecticides. We need very little to farm in Scotland compared with SE
England. Even so, our sparrow population has been on a roller coaster
ride, and now I have some sparrows, while my neighbour has none. What
is more perplexing is that he keeps cattle, and I have no livestock.

While we don't use as much insecticide, there are certain crops which
are vulnerable and often treated. Seed potatoes are a particularly
vulnerable crop, but less obvious crops such as spring sown oil seed
rape almost always need insecticide.

I have another area of concern, which is the autumn use of pyrethroids
on cereals. This is to prevent aphid vectors spreading disease. My
first concern is that our advice is that this is environmentally sound
practice (enough to get me worried). Secondly, if we chop a sector out
of the annual cycle too effectively, can the beasties recover ?

Can any gardeners / town house holders identify common practices that
they think might be worth examining ? trends in usage or behaviour
that might correlate with observations on population ?


Interesting post and a worthy crosspost to relevant groups to open the
discussion, if we are to ever solve the mystery.

I think trying to enforce a complete and artificial environments is to
blame. Gardeners who don't like creepie crawlies and farmers who
simply hate the idea of anything else getting a free meal. We see this
day in and day out with people whining "how do I get rid of" such and
such a pest, insect. I would suggest if people cannot live with nature
as it is then they should look elsewhere for amusement, preferably at
something that will not destroy our planet eventually.

I think bugs may be good logic. My seed feeders are hardly touched by
sparrers (south london) or rather they are touched and then promptly
dumped on the ground. Maybe we are just bringing a generation of
sparrers that don't know how to eat seeds!

Maybe the buggers are getting fussy in their old age, maybe seeds aint
what they used to be?

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 16:17:55 +0000, Colonel Bloomer
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 07:46:05 +0000, Mike McDowall
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 21:56:48 -0000, "Christina Websell"
christina.websell@zoomdotcodotuk wrote:

I have some news that I know you'll be interested in, Mike, about the house
sparrow project. Kate rang me last night, she is now writing up her
conclusions.
The conclusion is, lack of aphids and invertebrates as the main cause of the
house sparrow decline, lack of nestsites also.
Thanks for this Christina. I have discussed this with loads of friends
over the years, and all are agreed that there are far fewer flies of
many kinds than ~30 years ago. The next question is why ?

Too many tidy gardens and houses.
In what way ? I would also consider farmland, but as a farmer I am fed
up of certain conservation organisations who _only_ consider farmland.

I suspect that 30 year period has seen a vast increase in use of
insecticides. We need very little to farm in Scotland compared with SE
England. Even so, our sparrow population has been on a roller coaster
ride, and now I have some sparrows, while my neighbour has none. What
is more perplexing is that he keeps cattle, and I have no livestock.

While we don't use as much insecticide, there are certain crops which
are vulnerable and often treated. Seed potatoes are a particularly
vulnerable crop, but less obvious crops such as spring sown oil seed
rape almost always need insecticide.

I have another area of concern, which is the autumn use of pyrethroids
on cereals. This is to prevent aphid vectors spreading disease. My
first concern is that our advice is that this is environmentally sound
practice (enough to get me worried). Secondly, if we chop a sector out
of the annual cycle too effectively, can the beasties recover ?

Can any gardeners / town house holders identify common practices that
they think might be worth examining ? trends in usage or behaviour
that might correlate with observations on population ?


Interesting post and a worthy crosspost to relevant groups to open the
discussion, if we are to ever solve the mystery.

I think trying to enforce a complete and artificial environments is to
blame. Gardeners who don't like creepie crawlies and farmers who
simply hate the idea of anything else getting a free meal. We see this
day in and day out with people whining "how do I get rid of" such and
such a pest, insect. I would suggest if people cannot live with nature
as it is then they should look elsewhere for amusement, preferably at
something that will not destroy our planet eventually.

I think bugs may be good logic. My seed feeders are hardly touched by
sparrers (south london) or rather they are touched and then promptly
dumped on the ground. Maybe we are just bringing a generation of
sparrers that don't know how to eat seeds!

Maybe the buggers are getting fussy in their old age, maybe seeds aint
what they used to be?

Meant to add. I reckon the nest sites is a major contribution as well.
As kids we used to rip the tiles up off old roofs in the city and
there were literally hundreds of nests in a single block of roofs.
These are all largely gone now, so no more nest sites. Must be a major
factor I'd have thought.

? wrote in message
I have some news that I know you'll be interested in, Mike, about the
house
sparrow project. Kate rang me last night, she is now writing up her
conclusions.
The conclusion is, lack of aphids and invertebrates as the main cause of
the
house sparrow decline, lack of nestsites also.
Thanks for this Christina. I have discussed this with loads of friends
over the years, and all are agreed that there are far fewer flies of
many kinds than ~30 years ago. The next question is why ?
((SNIP))

Not so sure about that, the only place they are in abundance near here is by
our allotment site along the lane which is bordered by gardens for the old
peoples bungalows. Some of these people still put bread out every day for
the birds!
Everyone used to do that in the old days and it was the house sparrow that
got the main share.
Now everyone buys expensive seed for their garden birds, perhaps part of the
decline is because people have got too posh.

Regards
Bob
in Runnymede.UK.

? wrote in message
I have some news that I know you'll be interested in, Mike, about the
house
sparrow project. Kate rang me last night, she is now writing up her
conclusions.
The conclusion is, lack of aphids and invertebrates as the main cause of
the
house sparrow decline, lack of nestsites also.
Thanks for this Christina. I have discussed this with loads of friends
over the years, and all are agreed that there are far fewer flies of
many kinds than ~30 years ago. The next question is why ?
((SNIP))

Not so sure about that, the only place they are in abundance near here is by
our allotment site along the lane which is bordered by gardens for the old
peoples bungalows. Some of these people still put bread out every day for
the birds!
Everyone used to do that in the old days and it was the house sparrow that
got the main share.
Now everyone buys expensive seed for their garden birds, perhaps part of the
decline is because people have got too posh.

Regards
Bob
in Runnymede.UK.

Colonel Bloomer wrote:

snip

Maybe the buggers are getting fussy in their old age, maybe seeds
aint
what they used to be?

Well there's a truism.
I'll bet that 50 years ago, sparrers weren't being offered marijuana
seed in their bird seed mix!
But it has appeared under my feeder before now.

--
ned

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 17:43:09 -0000, "ned" wrote:

Colonel Bloomer wrote:

snip

Maybe the buggers are getting fussy in their old age, maybe seeds
aint
what they used to be?

Well there's a truism.
I'll bet that 50 years ago, sparrers weren't being offered marijuana
seed in their bird seed mix!
But it has appeared under my feeder before now.

Lol sshhhh!

Isn't that a legal crop now in the UK, the sanitized version of
course?

Making hemp!

ned wrote:

Well there's a truism.
I'll bet that 50 years ago, sparrers weren't being offered marijuana
seed in their bird seed mix!
But it has appeared under my feeder before now.

Really???? I wonder if eating the seeds has the same effect on birds, as
eating/smoking the leaves has on humans???

--
Michelle Fulton
Texas, USA
If you aren't living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 11:47:42 -0600, "Michelle Fulton"
wrote:

ned wrote:

Well there's a truism.
I'll bet that 50 years ago, sparrers weren't being offered marijuana
seed in their bird seed mix!
But it has appeared under my feeder before now.

Really???? I wonder if eating the seeds has the same effect on birds, as
eating/smoking the leaves has on humans???

ARe you on the verge of a confession?

Colonel Bloomer wrote:

ARe you on the verge of a confession?

Nope :-) Just wondering because I've never heard of this before.

--
Michelle Fulton
Texas, USA
If you aren't living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.

Colonel Bloomer wrote:

snip

Maybe the buggers are getting fussy in their old age, maybe seeds
aint
what they used to be?

Well there's a truism.
I'll bet that 50 years ago, sparrers weren't being offered marijuana
seed in their bird seed mix!
But it has appeared under my feeder before now.

--
ned

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 17:43:09 -0000, "ned" wrote:

Colonel Bloomer wrote:

snip

Maybe the buggers are getting fussy in their old age, maybe seeds
aint
what they used to be?

Well there's a truism.
I'll bet that 50 years ago, sparrers weren't being offered marijuana
seed in their bird seed mix!
But it has appeared under my feeder before now.

Lol sshhhh!

Isn't that a legal crop now in the UK, the sanitized version of
course?

Making hemp!

ned wrote:

Well there's a truism.
I'll bet that 50 years ago, sparrers weren't being offered marijuana
seed in their bird seed mix!
But it has appeared under my feeder before now.

Really???? I wonder if eating the seeds has the same effect on birds, as
eating/smoking the leaves has on humans???

--
Michelle Fulton
Texas, USA
If you aren't living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 11:47:42 -0600, "Michelle Fulton"
wrote:

ned wrote:

Well there's a truism.
I'll bet that 50 years ago, sparrers weren't being offered marijuana
seed in their bird seed mix!
But it has appeared under my feeder before now.

Really???? I wonder if eating the seeds has the same effect on birds, as
eating/smoking the leaves has on humans???

ARe you on the verge of a confession?

Colonel Bloomer wrote:

ARe you on the verge of a confession?

Nope :-) Just wondering because I've never heard of this before.

--
Michelle Fulton
Texas, USA
If you aren't living on the edge, you're taking up too much space.

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 11:53:52 -0600, "Michelle Fulton"
wrote:

Colonel Bloomer wrote:

ARe you on the verge of a confession?

Nope :-) Just wondering because I've never heard of this before.


Poop. I could do with some reward money.