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Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
I've been forced to put down some snail pellets, because they've had every
single turnip seedling except one. If a bird eats a poisoned snail, will it poison the bird? Thanks Andrew |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
'Andy',
I think that his site will reassure you, but make sure to use the pelletts very sparingly. http://www.gardenseeker.com/slug%20pellets.htm Regards, Emrys Davies. "Andy Hunt" wrote in message news:uDgdc.89$Xc6.73@newsfe1-win... I've been forced to put down some snail pellets, because they've had every single turnip seedling except one. If a bird eats a poisoned snail, will it poison the bird? Thanks Andrew |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
'Andy',
Another helpful site, but the news here is definitely not good, to say the least. http://www.pan-uk.org/pestnews/Actives/Metaldeh.htm Regards, Emrys Davies. "Andy Hunt" wrote in message news:uDgdc.89$Xc6.73@newsfe1-win... I've been forced to put down some snail pellets, because they've had every single turnip seedling except one. If a bird eats a poisoned snail, will it poison the bird? Thanks Andrew |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
Andy Hunt wrote:
I've been forced to put down some snail pellets, because they've had every single turnip seedling except one. If a bird eats a poisoned snail, will it poison the bird? Thanks Andrew Yes. One possible problem is that soggy snail pellets can be mistaken for slugs, and eaten directly by Song Thrushes. It is possible to get a powder of the same composition as the pellets but which Song Thrushes can't mistake for slugs. Another problem is that poisoned slugs/snails don't die instantaneously - they do move around for a while before keeling over. So, Song Thrushes can eat what seems to be a healthy slug/snail which actually carrys a good dose of poison. The affects of snail/slug poisons on song birds, such as thrushes and blackbirds is poorly understood. A possible consequence is that rather than directly poisoning the birds, it leads to infertility. So, no obvious amd direct result from the use of snail/slug pellets but a long term consequence which is very difficult to trace back to the original poison. Of course, what you do in your garden is in practise completely insignificant to the poisons put down by farmers. I'd suggest you go organic - toads and frogs are much better (and cheaper) at keeping slugs and snails under control and buying organic food in the shops also helps reduce the use of poisons in the countryside. -- Larry Stoter |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
Of course, what you do in your garden is in practise completely insignificant to the poisons put down by farmers. -- Larry Stoter Yeah, right larry. If you knew anything about farming you would know that alot of them are realy strugging. Do you realy think they would apply an expensive *poisons* as you say, for no reason. Why have a go at farmers on this topic. I agree some farmers do 'nuke' anything in site, but please dont tar everyone with the same brush! As a gardeners a agree that slug pellets are nasty, and go out of our way not to use them. |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
I used to think that blackbirds and thrushes would not touch slugs and
snails that had been killed by pellets. I put down some pellets last year-they lay dry for about a fortnight. Heavy rain brought out the snails. They died in droves and with them a young thrush that had been eating the corpses. I'm now convinced that the demise of the song thrush is because of overuse of slug pellets by GARDENERS. I have stopped using metaldehyde pellets and put no toxic adsorbent as protection around special plants. I haven't worked out yet how to protect a Lewisia growing out of a wall. I may shell out for biological protection for my strawberries. "Jim S" wrote in message ... Of course, what you do in your garden is in practise completely insignificant to the poisons put down by farmers. -- Larry Stoter Yeah, right larry. If you knew anything about farming you would know that alot of them are realy strugging. Do you realy think they would apply an expensive *poisons* as you say, for no reason. Why have a go at farmers on this topic. I agree some farmers do 'nuke' anything in site, but please dont tar everyone with the same brush! As a gardeners a agree that slug pellets are nasty, and go out of our way not to use them. |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
I have to use slug pellets at plant times and other times as well, but only
when and where I have to. We have a very healthy bird population which is increasing every year and this spring we have 2 song thrushes singing their heads off about 18 hours a day. We also have foxes, badgers, hedgehogs, frogs and toads, and still get heavy flushes of slugs and snails. -- David Hill Abacus nurseries www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
David Hill8/4/04 10:36
I have to use slug pellets at plant times and other times as well, but only when and where I have to. We have a very healthy bird population which is increasing every year and this spring we have 2 song thrushes singing their heads off about 18 hours a day. We also have foxes, badgers, hedgehogs, frogs and toads, and still get heavy flushes of slugs and snails. IF anything must be used, can I recommend Sluggit which is watered on, not pellets which all manner of creatures can pick up. BUT and it is a very bit BUT, the gardener *must* remove the corpses as quickly as possible. The alternative is to go out late at night with a bucket of heavily salted water and drop slugs and snails into that. It is much safer for other creatures. -- Sacha (remove the weeds to email me) |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
In article , David Hill
wrote: We also have foxes, badgers, hedgehogs, frogs and toads, and still get heavy flushes of slugs and snails. Yeah, even in my small Brixton garden I have at least one toad and a family of foxes and they don't seem to make any impact at all on the damn slugs and snails. That, I'm afraid, is the ruddy balance of nature for you. Lazarus -- Remover the rock from the email address |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
david taylor wrote:
I used to think that blackbirds and thrushes would not touch slugs and snails that had been killed by pellets. I put down some pellets last year-they lay dry for about a fortnight. Heavy rain brought out the snails. They died in droves and with them a young thrush that had been eating the corpses. I'm now convinced that the demise of the song thrush is because of overuse of slug pellets by GARDENERS. I have stopped using metaldehyde pellets and put no toxic adsorbent as protection around special plants. I haven't worked out yet how to protect a Lewisia growing out of a wall. I may shell out for biological protection for my strawberries. "Jim S" wrote in message ... Of course, what you do in your garden is in practise completely insignificant to the poisons put down by farmers. -- Larry Stoter Gardens, even in SE Engalnd, cover a tiny fraction of the land. Farmers have a much greater influence on anything gardeners may do. That is not say that minmising the use of toxic chemical in gardens is not a good idea. -- Larry Stoter |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
Jim S wrote:
Of course, what you do in your garden is in practise completely insignificant to the poisons put down by farmers. -- Larry Stoter Yeah, right larry. If you knew anything about farming you would know that alot of them are realy strugging. Do you realy think they would apply an expensive *poisons* as you say, for no reason. Why have a go at farmers on this topic. I agree some farmers do 'nuke' anything in site, but please dont tar everyone with the same brush! As a gardeners a agree that slug pellets are nasty, and go out of our way not to use them. I'm perfectly well aware that many farmers are struggling, although I rather suspect that the agribusiness barons in E. Anglia with their acres of oil seed rape and tons of molluscides are doing rather well. I also understand perfectly well why some farmers do apply expensive poisons - which are often more toxic than those available to the general public. The molluscides are applied to increase yield and profit. These molluscides are at least implicated, directly or indirectly, in the decline of various bird species. So farmers do have a responsibility - and the use of a whole range of chemicals isn't going to solve the problems of farmers. I am actually generally pro-farmer - they have by far the greatest influence on the UK countryside and many do a good job at protecting and enhancing wildlife. They have also been very badly served by politicians and, in many cases, the NFU. I personally think that the UK farm community could learn a great deal from French farmers. -- Larry Stoter |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
If a bird eats a poisoned snail, will it poison the bird? Look . . . slugs and snails tend to come out at night and gobble up the slug pellets. This means they are dead by morning. Birds that eat slugs and snails are not carrion eaters. They will not touch anything already dead and they don't come out at night to eat something that may be dying. We usually use a few slug pellets early in the year and we have song thrushes, mistle thrushes and blackbirds in the same numbers (maybe even more as we have slowly provided more habitat) as we had 11 years ago. A few slug pellets, judiciously placed, will not harm birds. I really can't see any bird being stupid enough to eat a slug pellet . . . the smell wouldn't be right. I must admit that I don't have many birds in my garden anyway, because it is a town house - I get a few sparrows, and I'm sure I saw a great tit the other day, but I'm no expert. I also get pigeons on my window sills. I've never seen that many birds round my way, and certainly no blackbirds or anything similar, so hopefully I won't be doing any damage to the local bird population! I don't really like the idea of putting any kind of poison down, but the snails in my garden show me no mercy! Thanks everyone! Andy |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
In article uDgdc.89$Xc6.73@newsfe1-win, Andy Hunt
writes I've been forced to put down some snail pellets, because they've had every single turnip seedling except one. You haven't been forced, you've chosen to rather than accept the alternative of no turnips. ;-) -- Kay Easton Edward's earthworm page: http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
In article , Larry
Stoter writes Gardens, even in SE Engalnd, cover a tiny fraction of the land. Farmers have a much greater influence on anything gardeners may do. That is not say that minmising the use of toxic chemical in gardens is not a good idea. There seems to be evidence that gardens are now an important habitat for song birds, which are moving from farmland habitats into gardens. that would suggest that what we do in our gardens *is* important. -- Kay Easton Edward's earthworm page: http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
In article , Jane Ransom
writes Look . . . slugs and snails tend to come out at night and gobble up the slug pellets. This means they are dead by morning. Birds that eat slugs and snails are not carrion eaters. What about the carrion eaters that will eat the corpses? Is there a possibility that they might be affected? OK, I know they aren't pretty fluffy songbirds, but nasty creepy crawlies ;-) They will not touch anything already dead and they don't come out at night to eat something that may be dying. But toads and hedgehogs do come out at night ... We usually use a few slug pellets early in the year and we have song thrushes, mistle thrushes and blackbirds in the same numbers (maybe even more as we have slowly provided more habitat) as we had 11 years ago. Whereas we have *more* mistle thrushes, song thrushes and blackbirds than we had 11 years ago ;-) -- Kay Easton Edward's earthworm page: http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
"............ I also understand perfectly well why some farmers do apply
expensive poisons - which are often more toxic than those available to the general public. The molluscides are applied to increase yield and profit. These molluscides are at least implicated, directly or indirectly, in the decline of various bird species. ........" No....The reason is that the "Public" wont buy veg with ant sign of Damage, let alone with the possibility of finding a slug or caterpillar in their lettuce, it would be straight back to the supermarket with it and probably a complaint to environmental health. If the public would accept these things then the use of insecticides etc would be reduced drastically. -- David Hill Abacus nurseries www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
In article , Kay Easton
writes Whereas we have *more* mistle thrushes, song thrushes and blackbirds than we had 11 years ago ;-) Hey, Kay . . . I did say a 'few' pellets 'judiciously' placed. Do you attribute the increase solely to your non use of slug pellets or your provision of habitat? Do your neighbours never use slug pellets either? And as you discovered last summer, we have managed to entice toads into the garden and they are multiplying rapidly, as are the frogs!!!!!!!! The only dead frog we found was one that had obviously been attacked by some predator as it had its back split open :(( -- Jane Ransom in Lancaster. I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg but if you need to email me for any other reason, put ransoms at jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
In article , Larry
Stoter writes I also understand perfectly well why some farmers do apply expensive poisons - which are often more toxic than those available to the general public. The molluscides are applied to increase yield and profit. These molluscides are at least implicated, directly or indirectly, in the decline of various bird species. Aye, but is that because they poison the birds directly or because they decimate the food chain so that the birds go elsewhere? You could apply your same reasoning to our obsession with hygiene. This obsession means there are fewer flies around and therefore fewer birds that eat the flies. It's not just farmers who are depriving birds of their food. What is really worrying us is the rate at which barns are being converted into housing as more and more farmers are pushed out of farming (why shouldn't a farmer have a decent standard of living?) The nesting places for swallows are disappearing rapidly. -- Jane Ransom in Lancaster. I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg but if you need to email me for any other reason, put ransoms at jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
I've been forced to put down some snail pellets, because they've had every single turnip seedling except one. You haven't been forced, you've chosen to rather than accept the alternative of no turnips. ;-) True! It was just a 'turn of phrase' rather than an attempted abrogation of responsibility . . . not motivated by revenge either, I might add. It's a bit too late for my turnips, in any case. I'm going to replace them (RIP) with some courgette seedlings which I've got in a propagator. Hopefully the snails will have been "pacified" (in the military sense) by then. Then again, they may just come back with reinforcements, in which case, I will admit defeat with the poisons and resort to sitting in wait for them in the dead of night and "picking them off" one-by-one. In the latter case, I'll "transfer" them to my front garden, where they can't do any harm. I also accept responsibility for the wasps I swat in the summer. I usually get told off for it by someone, but I just can't abide them buzzing around the place when you're trying to eat/drink outside . . . drowning in a lake of beer may be some people's idea of a good way to go, but I think a short, sharp end may be slightly more merciful . . . ? Andy |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
In article , Jane Ransom
writes What is really worrying us is the rate at which barns are being converted into housing as more and more farmers are pushed out of farming (why shouldn't a farmer have a decent standard of living?) Why should only a farmer have his standard of living protected? The rest of us have no guarantee that our chosen profession will continue to support us, not matter how many of our generations of forefathers have followed the same profession. By all means argue that we need to protect farmers as a means of providing food without reliance on imports, or to maintain the landscape in the form that we have changed it to over the last few hundred years, but I don't think the argument that anyone should be guaranteed a good standard of living simply because they are doing the job they have chosen to do is particularly compelling. -- Kay Easton Edward's earthworm page: http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
In article , Jane Ransom
writes In article , Kay Easton writes Whereas we have *more* mistle thrushes, song thrushes and blackbirds than we had 11 years ago ;-) Hey, Kay . . . I did say a 'few' pellets 'judiciously' placed. Do you attribute the increase solely to your non use of slug pellets or your provision of habitat? Provision of habitat ... which *includes* trying to make sure I have all of the links of the food chain. Therefore I've stopped using pesticides (including molluscicides). And I know from observation that my populations of greenfly are greatly appreciated ;-) I can't recall the current populations of the various birds - I think mistle thrushes are increasing slightly, which mean merely having the same number isn't necessarily a success. Whereas maintaining the number of song thrushes can be regarded as a success, since their overall numbers are still declining. -- Kay Easton Edward's earthworm page: http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
Kay Easton9/4/04 3:49
In article , Jane Ransom writes What is really worrying us is the rate at which barns are being converted into housing as more and more farmers are pushed out of farming (why shouldn't a farmer have a decent standard of living?) Why should only a farmer have his standard of living protected? The rest of us have no guarantee that our chosen profession will continue to support us, not matter how many of our generations of forefathers have followed the same profession. By all means argue that we need to protect farmers as a means of providing food without reliance on imports, or to maintain the landscape in the form that we have changed it to over the last few hundred years, but I don't think the argument that anyone should be guaranteed a good standard of living simply because they are doing the job they have chosen to do is particularly compelling. Possibly because historically, agricultural and horticultural professions have been considered 'low paid' work, versus the more academic professions. Being of the opinion that if push comes to shove, it's more important to eat than have someone push a piece of paper around so that a doctor can treat my whatever illness du jour I come up with, I'd rather support those who will make eating possible! Now that we're at a stage when it is actually cheaper for some farmers to pour away milk than sell it (or get rid of their herds and sell more money) we're in a very poor situation, IMO. We can import a LOT of food (from God alone knows what source) - we can't import every academic or civil servant we need. Indeed, it could be argued that this country isn't big enough to go on 'importing' people, especially if they have to bed fed by native sources....... So - academics are automatically protected by that fact whereas farmers aren't is my take on Jane's remarks. And if I'm wrong I still agree with her - a more realistic food pricing programme and less supermarkets would go a LONG way to making sure we understand the value of the food on our plate, in every sense. Phew! ;-) I think this country is going to be in big, big trouble food-wise, one of these days. -- Sacha (remove the weeds to email me) |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 14:13:41 +0100, "Andy Hunt"
wrote: I've been forced to put down some snail pellets, because they've had every single turnip seedling except one. One thing you can do is start your turnips 3 or 4 seeds per plug in plug trays out of reach of slugs (Greenhouse, windowsill etc) Plant them out after thorough hardening off when they are a bit tougher for the snails - little or no space between plugs in the row, you'll lose a few but you will get turnips and a clear conscience. Rod Weed my email address to reply http://website.lineone.net/~rodcraddock/index.html |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
In article , Kay Easton
writes By all means argue that we need to protect farmers as a means of providing food without reliance on imports, or to maintain the landscape in the form that we have changed it to over the last few hundred years, but I don't think the argument that anyone should be guaranteed a good standard of living simply because they are doing the job they have chosen to do is particularly compelling. Er . . I think anyone who produces food should have the highest standard of living. It sickens me that the people who do the least worth while jobs seem to make the most money :(((((((((( -- Jane Ransom in Lancaster. I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg but if you need to email me for any other reason, put ransoms at jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
In article , Kay Easton
writes Provision of habitat ... which *includes* trying to make sure I have all of the links of the food chain. Therefore I've stopped using pesticides (including molluscicides). And I know from observation that my populations of greenfly are greatly appreciated ;-) I have to admit that the only pesticide I use is a few slug pellets in early spring. Don't seem to suffer much from greenfly as the tits eat them and if the odd plant does become over infested, I just wash them off with left over washing up water. -- Jane Ransom in Lancaster. I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg but if you need to email me for any other reason, put ransoms at jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
Kay Easton wrote:
In article , Larry Stoter writes Gardens, even in SE Engalnd, cover a tiny fraction of the land. Farmers have a much greater influence on anything gardeners may do. That is not say that minmising the use of toxic chemical in gardens is not a good idea. There seems to be evidence that gardens are now an important habitat for song birds, which are moving from farmland habitats into gardens. that would suggest that what we do in our gardens *is* important. I think it probably depends a lot on the species and I guess that in some areas, gardens do provide a final refuge. But isn't it sad that we have so damaged the majority of the countryside that gardens can be important for some animals? -- Larry Stoter |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
David Hill wrote:
"............ I also understand perfectly well why some farmers do apply expensive poisons - which are often more toxic than those available to the general public. The molluscides are applied to increase yield and profit. These molluscides are at least implicated, directly or indirectly, in the decline of various bird species. ........" No....The reason is that the "Public" wont buy veg with ant sign of Damage, let alone with the possibility of finding a slug or caterpillar in their lettuce, it would be straight back to the supermarket with it and probably a complaint to environmental health. If the public would accept these things then the use of insecticides etc would be reduced drastically. Not to say our desire for cheap food. I never cease to be amazed watching people in supermarkets carefully picking over fruit and veg, looking for blemishes but never smelling what they're buying. Although, since it has often just come out of cold store, any smell can be difficult to detect. -- Larry Stoter |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
Jane Ransom wrote:
In article , Larry Stoter writes I also understand perfectly well why some farmers do apply expensive poisons - which are often more toxic than those available to the general public. The molluscides are applied to increase yield and profit. These molluscides are at least implicated, directly or indirectly, in the decline of various bird species. Aye, but is that because they poison the birds directly or because they decimate the food chain so that the birds go elsewhere? Probably both. Certainly also some suggestions that molluscides lead to a reduction in fertility in certain bird species. You could apply your same reasoning to our obsession with hygiene. This obsession means there are fewer flies around and therefore fewer birds that eat the flies. It's not just farmers who are depriving birds of their food. Indeed - but hygiene on farms. And, in many areas, monocultures of wheat or oil seed rape. Farmland occupies most of lowland Britain and how it is managed is critical for wildlife. I've also read (and seen) that some farmers sow poppies along the edges of fields to improve the appearance. But I'm really not having a go at farmers (or perhaps only a few). Farmers are responding to what politicians and the public want. And many farmers do have a real interest in and concern with wildlife. What is really worrying us is the rate at which barns are being converted into housing as more and more farmers are pushed out of farming (why shouldn't a farmer have a decent standard of living?) The nesting places for swallows are disappearing rapidly. Not just swallows - Barn Owls are also critically affected. And while some of it is barns being converted, farms are also being 'tidied' - often to meet requirements handed down from government or supermarkets. -- Larry Stoter |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
Jane Ransom wrote:
In article , Kay Easton writes By all means argue that we need to protect farmers as a means of providing food without reliance on imports, or to maintain the landscape in the form that we have changed it to over the last few hundred years, but I don't think the argument that anyone should be guaranteed a good standard of living simply because they are doing the job they have chosen to do is particularly compelling. Er . . I think anyone who produces food should have the highest standard of living. It sickens me that the people who do the least worth while jobs seem to make the most money :(((((((((( So you think farmers should have a higher standard of living than nurses, doctors or people who collect the dustbins and clear the drains? And would you differentiate between, say, the small mixed farm tenant who actually gets his hands dirty and the agribusiness barons with nice clean green wellies and range rovers who occassionally get as close to the soil as stopping and asking the combine driver where he going on holiday? I think arguments about who should or shouldn't have what standard of living aren't ultimately very productive - most people are doing a job which is important to somebody in one way or another (well, apart from politicians, estate agents, lawyers, anybody with inherited wealth .... :-)) -- Larry Stoter |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
In article , Larry
Stoter writes Indeed - but hygiene on farms. But I didn't say hygiene on farms - I said hygiene. -- Jane Ransom in Lancaster. I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg but if you need to email me for any other reason, put ransoms at jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see |
Poisoning snails - poisoning birds?
In article , Larry
Stoter writes Er . . I think anyone who produces food should have the highest standard of living. It sickens me that the people who do the least worth while jobs seem to make the most money :(((((((((( So you think farmers should have a higher standard of living than nurses, doctors or people who collect the dustbins and clear the drains? Please read my post again. (well, apart from politicians, estate agents, lawyers, anybody with inherited wealth .... :-)) Eggsakly! You forgot to mention financiers. -- Jane Ransom in Lancaster. I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg but if you need to email me for any other reason, put ransoms at jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see |
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