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Old 18-04-2004, 02:47 AM
Rosie
 
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Default Toddler and laburnum

I have a toddler and a medium-sized laburnum tree at the back of my garden,
which seems to produce a lot of seeds.

How poisonous are these seeds? They do seem to get everywhere. Would I be
best off getting rid of the tree?

(Obviously she isn't left to wander around the garden by herself, but she
does like shoving things in her mouth.)

ROSIE


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Old 18-04-2004, 02:48 AM
Tumbleweed
 
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Default Toddler and laburnum


"Rosie" wrote in message
...
I have a toddler and a medium-sized laburnum tree at the back of my

garden,
which seems to produce a lot of seeds.

How poisonous are these seeds? They do seem to get everywhere. Would I

be
best off getting rid of the tree?

(Obviously she isn't left to wander around the garden by herself, but she
does like shoving things in her mouth.)

ROSIE


According to a web search, as little as two seeds can produce symptoms, and
most places say its poisonous, down to parania about people wondering if the
wood is dangerous (well y4es but only if you eat it....) OTOH if its as
deadly as reported, how come actual deaths from it appear to be incredibly
rare?

This looks like a reasonable reference.
http://www.show.scot.nhs.uk/spib/summer02.pdf

I did also find a lancet ref which said that it wasnt as dangerous as had
been feared. I suppose once people decide its dangerous no one is going to
bother to investigate exactly how dangerous,and if a horse dies from eating
loads of the stuff that is regarded as proof, rather than as proof of the
stupidity and or sensitivity of horses.

You might also, from a longer term POV, consider if it would be better to
teach her not to eat stuff she doesnt know is good, rather than try and
remove anything remotely dangerous, which is obviously impossible since you
can only affect whats in your garden. If you remove the tree, how will she
know not to eat the seeds from another laburnum elsewhere, or other 'pretty'
berries. Maybe in a couple of years time she'll be round a friends house
playing in the garden, what if they have a laburnum?,My parents drummed it
into me not to eat berries off trees or bushes unless I knew they were OK,
had they shorn the garden of all such plants, there would have been nothing
to warn me against :-)


--
Tumbleweed

Remove my socks for email address


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Old 18-04-2004, 02:49 AM
Anne Jackson
 
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Default Toddler and laburnum

The message
from "Rosie" contains these words:

I have a toddler and a medium-sized laburnum tree at the back of my garden,
which seems to produce a lot of seeds.


How poisonous are these seeds? They do seem to get everywhere. Would I be
best off getting rid of the tree?


No.

(Obviously she isn't left to wander around the garden by herself, but she
does like shoving things in her mouth.)


It's your job to make sure she doesn't!

--
AnneJ
ICQ #:- 119531282
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Old 18-04-2004, 02:49 AM
Brian
 
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Default Toddler and laburnum

All parts are very poisonous but taste terrible.
The fruits [pods] do look similar to miniature garden peas to a child and
that is the danger. Many other plants are as poisonous but don't look so
'grown up' or so familiar and tempting.
To remove or not must be your own decision~~the cut wood is most
attractive. I had adventurous children and several Laburnums with no ill
effect.
If the chid did manage to eat some [not very many] and swallow [without
spitting out] then would become ill to very ill.
I have found that children do take notice of warnings and don't 'try out
for themselves'.
Best Wishes
"Rosie" wrote in message
...
I have a toddler and a medium-sized laburnum tree at the back of my

garden,
which seems to produce a lot of seeds.

How poisonous are these seeds? They do seem to get everywhere. Would I

be
best off getting rid of the tree?

(Obviously she isn't left to wander around the garden by herself, but she
does like shoving things in her mouth.)

ROSIE




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Old 18-04-2004, 02:50 AM
Stephen Howard
 
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Default Toddler and laburnum

On Fri, 16 Apr 2004 22:03:25 +0100, "Rosie" wrote:

I have a toddler and a medium-sized laburnum tree at the back of my garden,
which seems to produce a lot of seeds.

How poisonous are these seeds? They do seem to get everywhere. Would I be
best off getting rid of the tree?

(Obviously she isn't left to wander around the garden by herself, but she
does like shoving things in her mouth.)

All parts of the laburnum are poisonous - though most cases of
poisoning come from children eating the unripened seed pods, which
resemble small pea pods.

Having said that, I've raised two toddlers so far with a laburnum in
the garden - in fact it's one of the trees the kids climb up - without
any incident. I've another toddler who'll be crawling round the garden
this summer - and to be honest I'm far more worried about the vicious
red ants we have in these parts, they pack one hell of a painful
sting.

There are many hazards in the garden - ranging from poisonous plants,
fungi, animal and bird droppings etc, but even toddlers will learn
quite quickly if you're on hand to administer a very stern and loud
NO!
Tends to result in a flood of tears, and breaks your heart, but
children will soon forget the pain - and remember the message, and
it's a message they'll take with them wherever they go.


I have tasted both the green pod and the ripe black seed as a child -
and I'm here to tell you that I really can't understand how anyone
could eat any sort of quantity of the things, they're both intensely
bitter.

It's a fine tree, with cool foliage and fantastic yellow blooms - so
it'd be a shame to lop it down.
Could you not perhaps prune it back hard this year? This would cut
down on the blooms, and with a suitable pair of long-handled shears
you might even be able to dead head the blooms ( if any ).

Ultimately though, it IS a poisonous plant - and I doubt many parents
would blame you if you preferred not to live with the risk.

Regards,



--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk
Emails to: showard{who is at}shwoodwind{dot}co{dot}uk


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Old 18-04-2004, 02:50 AM
Mike
 
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Default Toddler and laburnum



"Rosie" wrote in message
...
I have a toddler and a medium-sized laburnum tree at the back of my

garden,
which seems to produce a lot of seeds.

How poisonous are these seeds? They do seem to get everywhere. Would I

be
best off getting rid of the tree?

(Obviously she isn't left to wander around the garden by herself, but she
does like shoving things in her mouth.)

ROSIE



If it was us, we would get rid of the tree.

Our daughter had a Laburnum tree over her pond. The seeds/pods dropped into
the pond. The fish died.

Mike (after taking advice from Joan)
--
H.M.S.Newfoundland Association Reunion Hayling Island April 23rd - 26th
Royal Naval Reunion Eastbourne May 7th - 10th
H.M.S.Collingwood Association Reunion Bracklesham Bay May 21st - 24th
Nat.Service (RAF) Assoc. Cosford Parade / Social Weekend 25th - 28th June


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Old 18-04-2004, 02:50 AM
Sacha
 
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Default Toddler and laburnum

Rosie16/4/04 10:03
I have a toddler and a medium-sized laburnum tree at the back of my garden,
which seems to produce a lot of seeds.

How poisonous are these seeds? They do seem to get everywhere. Would I be
best off getting rid of the tree?

(Obviously she isn't left to wander around the garden by herself, but she
does like shoving things in her mouth.)

To be honest, only you can figure out how much this is going to worry you.
Laburnums are poisonous but you might want to ring up either the RHS or e.g.
Great Ormond Street Hospital to get some figures on how many children have
died or even been taken seriously ill from eating any part of this plant.
The warnings must be given, IMO but the actualities are another matter.

I brought up 3 children of my own and now have a grand daughter and I think
I can fairly say that I am *very* safety conscious - very - and we have just
planted a short laburnum arch in our garden. You simply don't allow a small
child to wander a garden alone - our grand daughter loves the bright red
berries of cuckoo pint and picked several last year - but because one of us
was always with her, she didn't get them as far as her mouth and was taught
firmly that they are not to be touched. She has now learned that going to
the fish pond without a grown up is a no-no and that's because I am *very*
strict with her about that - but never complacent.

I have never once had a child related to me (or any other child for that
matter) ingest or be affected by any poisonous plant but I have had alarms
with nearly all of them picking up and stuffing in their mouths bits and
pieces they've found or picked up e.g. coins, rubbers, pencils, small toys,
bits of chewed paper and a few serious attempts on things like paper clips.
I once read of a very small baby choking to death on a piece of tissue
handkerchief with which its father had wiped its mouth. But death by plant
material? Never, in my experience..

--

Sacha
(remove the weeds to email me)


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Old 18-04-2004, 02:50 AM
Mike
 
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Default Toddler and laburnum



Quote from the RHS Gardening Manual

"Unsuitable for a family garden as all parts are toxic if eaten"

Mike (& Joan)


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Old 18-04-2004, 02:50 AM
Mike
 
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Default Toddler and laburnum

and don't cross the road and don't go near the River and .............

I agree with you on teaching the awareness of danger, but the poster has
come on asking for advice. They are well aware of the danger and point out
that the youngster does tend to put things in her mouth, as all children do.
Our eldest daughter, at the age of 3/4 was found eating coal!! 'Our'
recommendation is on this occassion, to remove the tree.

Poisonous? I can remember as a youngster when pea shooters were the rage,
having a mouthful of laburnum seeds as 'ammo'. I was never told they were
dangerous!! But I am still here aren't I?

:-))

Mike. Yes, still here :-))

--
H.M.S.Newfoundland Association Reunion Hayling Island April 23rd - 26th
Royal Naval Reunion Eastbourne May 7th - 10th
H.M.S.Collingwood Association Reunion Bracklesham Bay May 21st - 24th
Nat.Service (RAF) Assoc. Cosford Parade / Social Weekend 25th - 28th June



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Old 18-04-2004, 02:51 AM
David Hill
 
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Default Toddler and laburnum

A quick google search for Laburnum Poison brought up several interesting
items including this extract from
http://medtox.org/info/pdq/web%20summer%202003.pdf

Poisoning in Children: Laburnum
Laburnum (also known as golden rain/
chain) is a smallish, decorative tree often
planted in parks and gardens. In late spring
it is covered in flowing bright yellow
flowers. Seeds develop in pea-like pods in
summer and often remain on the tree all
winter.
Case report1: At a barbeque 3 children
had their own party further down the
garden where they had found a tree with
'peas' on it. They were caught nibbling
these 'peas' by a parent who had heard
laburnum was very poisonous and were
rushed to hospital. A 3 year-old boy who
had eaten 4 seeds remained well. A 5 yearold
girl vomited twice on arrival and had
colicky abdominal pain and a 4 year-old
boy who said he had eaten 1 pod
experienced profuse vomiting, tachycardia
and twitching. The children all recovered
with supportive care.
Comment: All parts of the tree especially
the bark and seeds contain the toxin
cytisine which resembles nicotine.
Fortunately ingestion of laburnum usually
causes only gastrointestinal upset. Severe
intoxication is rare but may result in
neurological symptoms.
Effects may appear within 1 hour2 and
include 'burning' of the oropharynx,
nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain and
diarrhoea. Headache, dizziness, confusion,
dilated pupils, clammy skin, tachycardia,
pyrexia, dyspnoea and drowsiness are
possible later. Recovery is usually
complete within 12-24 hours. Massive
amounts of cytisine could cause
hallucinations, convulsions, respiratory
failure, coma and even death3.
Children should be given activated
charcoal if they have eaten more than 5
seeds. Asymptomatic patients should be
observed for a minimum of 6 hours post
ingestion.
Laburnum seeds are usually ingested by 5-
10 year-olds rather than toddlers!FN
Refs: 1. NPIS(L) 95/105355
2. Fuller TC, McClintock E (1986). Poisonous Plants of
California. University of California Press: Berkeley,
California.
3. Cooper MR, Johnson AW (1998). Poisonous Plants and
Fungi in Britain, Ed. 2. The Stationery Office: London.
Key point: Systemic
toxicity may occur
following ingestion of
laburnum seeds

--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk






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Old 18-04-2004, 03:01 AM
Vicky
 
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Default Toddler and laburnum


How poisonous are these seeds? They do seem to get everywhere. Would I

be
best off getting rid of the tree?

(Obviously she isn't left to wander around the garden by herself, but she
does like shoving things in her mouth.)

ROSIE


At the end of the day, it is your decision as to whether or not to remove
poisonous plants from your own garden.

When I was a childminder, I was not allowed to have anything poisonous in my
garden. The fact I watched minded children like a hawk was beside the
point! Social Services provided childminders with a list of recognised
poisonous plants.

I don't childmind any more but still have young children of my own. I kill
off the nightshade that grows thro my fence from force of habit and having
paranoia drummed into me as a child as to "how terribly poisonous" this was.
But I don't worry about anything else - foxgloves grow quite happily in one
corner. I have a laurel tree overhanging the garden and it dumps it's
berries on my lawn annually. The kids know that they are not allowed to
even touch any berries of any kind without my permission. Until they were
old enough to understand that, they were supervised pretty closely anyway.
In fact if I even mention the word poisonous now, they steer well clear of
such things. The problem comes when I have a friend's child over and they
don't understand these things.

I grew up having a reasonable knowledge of and respect for what was and
wasn't poisonous - and therefore what is and isn't edible! I teach my kids
the same. Obviously, they could do anything the moment your back is turned
and you know your own child best. Because I now use all sorts of berries,
leaves and herbs from the wild for wine, jam and general cooking, they also
learn from me about the safety of plants. And there's nothing like picking
rosehips with your kids and introducing them to the itching powder effect of
the hairs inside the fruit!

I understand that apple leaves are poisonous to a degree and removed one of
those from my baby son's mouth once (that baby is now 9). But then he also
had a liking for woodlice.............

I belong to the Alan Titchmarsh school of thought that it is better to
educate children about the dangers of plants rather than remove them
altogether.

Vicky


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Old 18-04-2004, 03:02 AM
Jane Ransom
 
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Default Toddler and laburnum

In article , Vicky
writes
I belong to the Alan Titchmarsh school of thought that it is better to
educate children about the dangers of plants rather than remove them
altogether.

Exactly . . . if you cocoon them when they are little, they don't stand
a chance when they become independent adults (
--
Jane Ransom in Lancaster.
I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg
but if you need to email me for any other reason, put ransoms
at jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see


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Old 18-04-2004, 03:02 AM
Mike
 
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Default Toddler and laburnum




How poisonous are these seeds? They do seem to get everywhere. Would I

be
best off getting rid of the tree?


No.

(Obviously she isn't left to wander around the garden by herself, but

she
does like shoving things in her mouth.)


It's your job to make sure she doesn't!


I had an acquaintance once who gave very definite answers like yours when it
came to the subject of controlling/teaching children. Both he and his wife
were in their 50's so knew right from wrong and what children should do and
what they should not do.
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
..
He and his wife had no children :-))

Mike

--
H.M.S.Newfoundland Association Reunion Hayling Island April 23rd - 26th
Royal Naval Reunion Eastbourne May 7th - 10th
H.M.S.Collingwood Association Reunion Bracklesham Bay May 21st - 24th
Nat.Service (RAF) Assoc. Cosford Parade / Social Weekend 25th - 28th June


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Old 18-04-2004, 03:03 AM
Inge Jones
 
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Default Toddler and laburnum

In article ,
says...
In article , Vicky
writes
I belong to the Alan Titchmarsh school of thought that it is better to
educate children about the dangers of plants rather than remove them
altogether.

Exactly . . . if you cocoon them when they are little, they don't stand
a chance when they become independent adults (


Unfortunately children's self-control is erratic. You can teach them
facts, and you can test them afterwards to make sure those facts are
learned. Then they do whatever it was that you know they knew better
than, and you ask them why, and they have no idea why they did it! And
they *still* remember perfectly well you telling them not to, and why!!!

I even remember one time at about 4 or 5 years old I was sitting on my
bed with a pair of scissors, which my parents trusted me with to cut out
paper shapes. I'd been using scissors safely for at least two years so
they didn't think I needed supervising any more. I'd run out of ideas
for paper shapes, and I watched with horrified fascination as my hand
gathered up some bedcover and the other hand started cutting a shape out
of it. There's no question but that I knew it was wrong, but equally no
stopping my exciting activity.

And how did I explain it to my mother who came in just before the shape
was completely cut out? "I couldn't help it" was my lame-sounding but
true excuse.

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