Xref: kermit uk.rec.gardening:204745

About five years ago a friend gave me some excess bluebells which were
taking over her garden. I planted a clump at the base of each tree in
our orchard.

This year one of the clumps has pink flowers. It is planted at the base
of a Bramley which has never been healthy - it grows a few leaves at the
end of each branch, but never flowers.

I am suspecting there is a localised problem with the soil. All the
other trees are doing fine and all have blue bluebells underneath. Any
suggestions what the problem might be?

By the way, I am aware that there are naturally occurring pink
bluebells, but my friend is sure she has never had any, and these ones
have flowered blue in the past.

In article , Spidey
writes
About five years ago a friend gave me some excess bluebells which were
taking over her garden. I planted a clump at the base of each tree in
our orchard.

This year one of the clumps has pink flowers. It is planted at the base
of a Bramley which has never been healthy - it grows a few leaves at the
end of each branch, but never flowers.

I am suspecting there is a localised problem with the soil. All the
other trees are doing fine and all have blue bluebells underneath. Any
suggestions what the problem might be?

By the way, I am aware that there are naturally occurring pink
bluebells, but my friend is sure she has never had any, and these ones
have flowered blue in the past.

I'm not aware of environmental conditions that change the flower colour
of bluebells. pH affects flower colour of Hydrangea, but I don't think
the same happens in bluebells.

About 5 years is long enough for seeds to have come to maturity, and
these could be pink even if the parents weren't. Or small bulbs that are
flowering for the first time. Are you 100% certain that it is a change
of colour, and not just a bulbs flowering for the first time?

Which bluebell do you have? The spanish bluebell, and the
english/spanish hybrid, are more likely to throw pink flowers. See
Plantlife's on-line identifier:

http://www.plantlife.org.uk/bluebell/home.htm

--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

On Fri, 14 May 2004 09:13:11 +0100, Spidey wrote:

About five years ago a friend gave me some excess bluebells which were
taking over her garden. I planted a clump at the base of each tree in
our orchard.

This year one of the clumps has pink flowers. It is planted at the base
of a Bramley which has never been healthy - it grows a few leaves at the
end of each branch, but never flowers.

I am suspecting there is a localised problem with the soil. All the
other trees are doing fine and all have blue bluebells underneath. Any
suggestions what the problem might be?

We have had masses of bluebells (the Spanish type) at the base of
three or four birch trees for many years. I don't know when they
started to change, but most of them are pink now, with a few white
ones showing up here and there. Thankfully we do not have a nearby
population of native bluebells, as neighbours also have the Spanish
type, so even if I destroyed all of ours it would be of little
advantage. I would hate to think we were the cause of hybridising and
so losing native ones.

Regards, VivienB

"Spidey" wrote in message
...
About five years ago a friend gave me some excess bluebells which were
taking over her garden. I planted a clump at the base of each tree in
our orchard.

This year one of the clumps has pink flowers. It is planted at the base
of a Bramley which has never been healthy - it grows a few leaves at the
end of each branch, but never flowers.

I am suspecting there is a localised problem with the soil. All the
other trees are doing fine and all have blue bluebells underneath. Any
suggestions what the problem might be?

By the way, I am aware that there are naturally occurring pink
bluebells, but my friend is sure she has never had any, and these ones
have flowered blue in the past.

There are a number of genes involved in the flower colour of bluebells. Pink
is recessive and can be passed through numerous generations till Xed with
another carrying the same recessive gene. 5 years is ample time. There is
another .doubly recessive, gene that can produce white flowers. Neither of
these indicates being infected with alien species. An ultra rare combination
of alleles can increase the intensity of pink to magenta~or dilute till
barely shell pink.
They are not more common because the genes are recessive, and doubly
recessive, and it is highly probable that the insects involved have an
instinctive preference for the blue.
Best Wishes Brian

On Sat, 15 May 2004 13:53:43 +0100, "Brian"
wrote:


There are a number of genes involved in the flower colour of bluebells. Pink
is recessive and can be passed through numerous generations till Xed with
another carrying the same recessive gene. 5 years is ample time. There is
another .doubly recessive, gene that can produce white flowers. Neither of
these indicates being infected with alien species. An ultra rare combination
of alleles can increase the intensity of pink to magenta~or dilute till
barely shell pink.
They are not more common because the genes are recessive, and doubly
recessive, and it is highly probable that the insects involved have an
instinctive preference for the blue.
Best Wishes Brian

We have a single, white, regrettably Spanish bluebell in our garden
(I've eliminated all the blue ones, and am growing English bluebells
from seed collected late last summer, but they only germinated earlier
this year). As I like the white one, I was hoping to collect the seed
and increase the numbers. Are they likely to come true?


--
Chris

E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net

Seeds from white bluebells will only come true if pollinated by other white
flowers. This is best done by hand and cover the fruits after you have done
so. Ideally do this in an insect proof greenhouse. From where will you
obtain the white genuine bluebells to make a start?.
Have another look at English bluebells in dappled sunlight and you might
agree that the natural colour is the best. I have literally millions of
bluebells forming glades and think of the other colours as interesting but
not desirable in bulk.
Best Wishes Brian 'flayb' to respond.
"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 15 May 2004 13:53:43 +0100, "Brian"
wrote:


There are a number of genes involved in the flower colour of bluebells.
Pink
is recessive and can be passed through numerous generations till Xed with
another carrying the same recessive gene. 5 years is ample time. There is
another .doubly recessive, gene that can produce white flowers. Neither
of
these indicates being infected with alien species. An ultra rare
combination
of alleles can increase the intensity of pink to magenta~or dilute till
barely shell pink.
They are not more common because the genes are recessive, and doubly
recessive, and it is highly probable that the insects involved have an
instinctive preference for the blue.
Best Wishes Brian

We have a single, white, regrettably Spanish bluebell in our garden
(I've eliminated all the blue ones, and am growing English bluebells
from seed collected late last summer, but they only germinated earlier
this year). As I like the white one, I was hoping to collect the seed
and increase the numbers. Are they likely to come true?


--
Chris

E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net

On Sun, 16 May 2004 12:32:53 +0100, "Brian"
wrote:

Seeds from white bluebells will only come true if pollinated by other white
flowers. This is best done by hand and cover the fruits after you have done
so. Ideally do this in an insect proof greenhouse. From where will you
obtain the white genuine bluebells to make a start?.
Have another look at English bluebells in dappled sunlight and you might
agree that the natural colour is the best. I have literally millions of
bluebells forming glades and think of the other colours as interesting but
not desirable in bulk.
Best Wishes Brian 'flayb' to respond.

Thanks, but there's only the one plant ATM.

As an aside, we were out walking on the cliffs in West Cornwall this
afternoon, and admiring a huge carpet of genuine English bluebells,
when I noticed one solitary very pale pink one among them.


--
Chris

E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net

I too was admiring them just to the North of you~in Cornwall. Thankfully we
have no problems with the Spanish varieties.
As you do have one white specimen then tickle its inside with a little
brush, on a warm day, soon and you stand a good chance of further whites. I
have managed this in just over three years. Leave the fruits till they start
to discolour. Sow the seeds in a pan of sifted soil and leave outside to the
elements.
Within 18months you should be able to re-sift the soil leaving the small
bulbs to be planted.
Best Wishes. Brian.
"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 16 May 2004 12:32:53 +0100, "Brian"
wrote:

Seeds from white bluebells will only come true if pollinated by other
white
flowers. This is best done by hand and cover the fruits after you have
done
so. Ideally do this in an insect proof greenhouse. From where will you
obtain the white genuine bluebells to make a start?.
Have another look at English bluebells in dappled sunlight and you might
agree that the natural colour is the best. I have literally millions of
bluebells forming glades and think of the other colours as interesting
but
not desirable in bulk.
Best Wishes Brian 'flayb' to respond.

Thanks, but there's only the one plant ATM.

As an aside, we were out walking on the cliffs in West Cornwall this
afternoon, and admiring a huge carpet of genuine English bluebells,
when I noticed one solitary very pale pink one among them.


--
Chris

E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net

In article , Brian
writes
Seeds from white bluebells will only come true if pollinated by other white
flowers. This is best done by hand and cover the fruits after you have done
so. Ideally do this in an insect proof greenhouse. From where will you
obtain the white genuine bluebells to make a start?.
Have another look at English bluebells in dappled sunlight and you might
agree that the natural colour is the best. I have literally millions of
bluebells forming glades and think of the other colours as interesting but
not desirable in bulk.

Is that true? Someone else said that the white gene was recessive. That
would mean that a bluebell with a blue gene and a white gene would have
blue flowers. But if you mated two such bluebells, around 1 in 4 of the
offspring could be expected to be white - and that's how you get the
white one to begin with.

So while a white bluebell will come true from seed if pollinated by
another white one, you should still get a proportion of white flowered
bluebells (approx half) if it is pollinated by a bluebell with one white
gene and one blue gene.

Of course, finding out which of the blue bluebells have a white gene is
another matter entirely ..

Incidentally, the is a ng in which bottom posting is the norm, and if
you top post it gets the whole thread into a complete scramble.

news
On Sat, 15 May 2004 13:53:43 +0100, "Brian"
wrote:


There are a number of genes involved in the flower colour of bluebells.
Pink
is recessive and can be passed through numerous generations till Xed with
another carrying the same recessive gene. 5 years is ample time. There is
another .doubly recessive, gene that can produce white flowers. Neither
of
these indicates being infected with alien species. An ultra rare
combination
of alleles can increase the intensity of pink to magenta~or dilute till
barely shell pink.
They are not more common because the genes are recessive, and doubly
recessive, and it is highly probable that the insects involved have an
instinctive preference for the blue.
Best Wishes Brian

We have a single, white, regrettably Spanish bluebell in our garden
(I've eliminated all the blue ones, and am growing English bluebells
from seed collected late last summer, but they only germinated earlier
this year). As I like the white one, I was hoping to collect the seed
and increase the numbers. Are they likely to come true?


--
Chris

E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net



--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

"Kay Easton" wrote in message
...
In article , Brian
writes
Seeds from white bluebells will only come true if pollinated by other
white
flowers. This is best done by hand and cover the fruits after you have
done
so. Ideally do this in an insect proof greenhouse. From where will you
obtain the white genuine bluebells to make a start?.
Have another look at English bluebells in dappled sunlight and you might
agree that the natural colour is the best. I have literally millions of
bluebells forming glades and think of the other colours as interesting
but
not desirable in bulk.

Is that true? Someone else said that the white gene was recessive. That
would mean that a bluebell with a blue gene and a white gene would have
blue flowers. But if you mated two such bluebells, around 1 in 4 of the
offspring could be expected to be white - and that's how you get the
white one to begin with.

So while a white bluebell will come true from seed if pollinated by
another white one, you should still get a proportion of white flowered
bluebells (approx half) if it is pollinated by a bluebell with one white
gene and one blue gene.

Of course, finding out which of the blue bluebells have a white gene is
another matter entirely ..

Kay~ Many thanks. Your ratios are quite correct for a colour determined by
a single pair of alleles. As you say they would be 'AA' for a normal
bluebell, 'aa' for a recessive and 'Aa' for the bluebell that looks normal
but is hybrid. So Aa x Aa = 1AA: 2 Aa: 1aa[white]
Also as you state Aa x aa = Aa : aa. and again the difficulty would be in
recognising the Aa ~~ which is impossible.
However the white requires two pairs of recessive alleles and gives a ratio
of 15 : 1 and then only having crossed [or self pollinated] a pair of
dihybrids.
For example pure blue would be 'AABB' 'and the white 'aabb'. The first
cross would be dihybrids 'AaBb'. Crossing two of these is not terribly
complicated mathematically but does give a ratio of 15 coloured to 1 white.
AABB:2AABb:AAbb:2AaBB:4AaBb:2Aabb:
aaBB:2aaBb:aabb. So only the aabb will be white. Those showing the A&b can
be pink as can those showing a&B but differing slightly. Nine will look the
normal blue.
So you can see why it was suggested that he tries to self pollinate two
whites?!!
Incidentally, the is a ng in which bottom posting is the norm, and if
you top post it gets the whole thread into a complete scramble.
Thanks for your question and Best Wishes
Brian 'flayb' to respond.
news
On Sat, 15 May 2004 13:53:43 +0100, "Brian"
wrote:


There are a number of genes involved in the flower colour of
bluebells.
Pink
is recessive and can be passed through numerous generations till Xed
with
another carrying the same recessive gene. 5 years is ample time. There
is
another .doubly recessive, gene that can produce white flowers.
Neither
of
these indicates being infected with alien species. An ultra rare
combination
of alleles can increase the intensity of pink to magenta~or dilute
till
barely shell pink.
They are not more common because the genes are recessive, and doubly
recessive, and it is highly probable that the insects involved have an
instinctive preference for the blue.
Best Wishes Brian

We have a single, white, regrettably Spanish bluebell in our garden
(I've eliminated all the blue ones, and am growing English bluebells
from seed collected late last summer, but they only germinated earlier
this year). As I like the white one, I was hoping to collect the seed
and increase the numbers. Are they likely to come true?


--
Chris

E-mail: christopher[dot]hogg[at]virgin[dot]net



--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

"Kay Easton" wrote in message
...

Which bluebell do you have? The spanish bluebell, and the
english/spanish hybrid, are more likely to throw pink flowers. See
Plantlife's on-line identifier:

http://www.plantlife.org.uk/bluebell/home.htm

Don't bother to do the survey, though, because it finished in 2003.
--
Nick Wagg

In article , Brian
writes

Kay~ Many thanks. Your ratios are quite correct for a colour determined by
a single pair of alleles. As you say they would be 'AA' for a normal
bluebell, 'aa' for a recessive and 'Aa' for the bluebell that looks normal
but is hybrid. So Aa x Aa = 1AA: 2 Aa: 1aa[white]
Also as you state Aa x aa = Aa : aa. and again the difficulty would be in
recognising the Aa ~~ which is impossible.
However the white requires two pairs of recessive alleles and gives a ratio
of 15 : 1 and then only having crossed [or self pollinated] a pair of
dihybrids.
For example pure blue would be 'AABB' 'and the white 'aabb'. The first
cross would be dihybrids 'AaBb'. Crossing two of these is not terribly
complicated mathematically but does give a ratio of 15 coloured to 1 white.
AABB:2AABb:AAbb:2AaBB:4AaBb:2Aabb:
aaBB:2aaBb:aabb. So only the aabb will be white. Those showing the A&b can
be pink as can those showing a&B but differing slightly. Nine will look the
normal blue.
--
Thanks! I was wondering about this this morning on the basis of '1
recessive gene expressed = pink, 2 = white?' which is in effect what
you've said ... on the principle that there is a pair of pink and blue
colourings in plants that seem very interlinked - as in cornflower,
geranium and borage family. Cornflower usually blue but pink and white
varieties readily available, geranium typically blue or pink (forgetting
about magenta for the time being), borage family often showing both in
same inflorescence as in forget-me-not and lungwort.

Also many blue flowers when dried turn pink.

Thus simplistic explanation is that there are two pigments, one a pink
one, one a readily decaying one which in combination with the pink gives
blue, and also that they are governed by separate alleles so that you
often encounter pink forms of the mainly blue flower. You've just
confirmed the genetic bit in bluebells - is it the same mechanism in the
other examples?
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

"Kay Easton" wrote in message
...
In article , Brian
writes

Kay~ Many thanks. Your ratios are quite correct for a colour determined
by
a single pair of alleles. As you say they would be 'AA' for a normal
bluebell, 'aa' for a recessive and 'Aa' for the bluebell that looks
normal
but is hybrid. So Aa x Aa = 1AA: 2 Aa: 1aa[white]
Also as you state Aa x aa = Aa : aa. and again the difficulty would be
in
recognising the Aa ~~ which is impossible.
However the white requires two pairs of recessive alleles and gives a
ratio
of 15 : 1 and then only having crossed [or self pollinated] a pair of
dihybrids.
For example pure blue would be 'AABB' 'and the white 'aabb'. The first
cross would be dihybrids 'AaBb'. Crossing two of these is not terribly
complicated mathematically but does give a ratio of 15 coloured to 1
white.
AABB:2AABb:AAbb:2AaBB:4AaBb:2Aabb:
aaBB:2aaBb:aabb. So only the aabb will be white. Those showing the A&b
can
be pink as can those showing a&B but differing slightly. Nine will look
the
normal blue.
--
Thanks! I was wondering about this this morning on the basis of '1
recessive gene expressed = pink, 2 = white?' which is in effect what
you've said ... on the principle that there is a pair of pink and blue
colourings in plants that seem very interlinked - as in cornflower,
geranium and borage family. Cornflower usually blue but pink and white
varieties readily available, geranium typically blue or pink (forgetting
about magenta for the time being), borage family often showing both in
same inflorescence as in forget-me-not and lungwort.

Also many blue flowers when dried turn pink.

Thus simplistic explanation is that there are two pigments, one a pink
one, one a readily decaying one which in combination with the pink gives
blue, and also that they are governed by separate alleles so that you
often encounter pink forms of the mainly blue flower. You've just
confirmed the genetic bit in bluebells - is it the same mechanism in the
other examples?
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:

Kay,
Again you are quite correct.
Have you also noticed that blue flowers, when photographed, can often look
'magentarish'?
With all flowers the primary search is for the natural/ wild version. These
will be genetically pure~~ but not necessarily dominant~~ for all of their
genes, to any mutation that occurs. Mutations of genes do take place over
time and these can be dominant or recessive to existing alleles. Only when
it is expressed is it possible to determine dominance/recessive or even
mutual.
A mutated allele can exist for hundreds of years before being crossed with
another with a similar mutation before it can be expressed.
This is why no form of sexual reproduction can reproduce an exact copy.
Yes, we can buy seeds that are of a named variety but that means they are
pure genetically for the aspects that matter, but for literally thousands of
genes they can and do differ.
The genetics of the Cornflower you mentioned can be shown to be similar to
that of the bluebell though with even more pairs of alleles invoved.
The sought after blue rose will only be achieved when further mutations
happen or can be induced~~not that it would appeal to me.
I visit Swedish universities and two years ago some students showed me
some 'blue roses' but this had been achieved by watering with analine dyes!
I was amused but not deceived.
Interestingly, quite a number of human aspects are determined quite simply.
My brother is an albino[truly] and yet both parents were quite normal~~my
father quite dark.
Thus, as you know, both parets were 'Aa' for albinism. The cross was Aa x
Aa= AA:2Aa:aa[my brother] So I am twice as likely to be hybrid than pure!
Also, as albinism is rare, all my brother's children must be Aa.
Even more interestingly; we not only inherit our parents' genes but also
the surname of our father. If, given a surname, and then having no male
children, the name would die out.
Surnames were often aquired through ones home town, occupation or
appearance.
Via my work I found a friend called 'Bulstrode' which is not totally
uncommon. He was born with a deformed hip which is recessive. His
g.g.g.g.getc.parent must have aquired that name by [in Anglo-saxon] "walking
like a bull". Legs apart and swinging.
The allele being carried for a thousand years before his father with the Aa
unwittingly[and of course called Bulstrode] met another carrying the Aa,~
unknowingly.
Perhaps the loveliest girl I ever met is called Broadfoot, and has a club
foot. With modern appliances this can be reasonably disguised. Obviously her
ancestor was given that name because of that deformity. There was no PC in
those days. Human skin pigmentation involves numerous pairs of
alleles. The totally black being dominant for all invoved alleles. A single
pair of alleles becoming recessive dilutes the colour and explains all the
variations The combinations are seemingly endless.
Sorry to have been so garrulous but have taken time off to have a cold
and a tooth extracted. Being a man I consequently make a great fuss over
such a triviality!!
Regards and Best Wishes Brian.
Where were you when I wanted attentive students??
"Getting older is not so bad when you think of the alternative"!!



http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

On Mon, 17 May 2004 21:55:03 +0100, "Brian"
wrote:


"Kay Easton" wrote in message
...
In article , Brian
writes

Kay~ Many thanks. Your ratios are quite correct for a colour determined
by
a single pair of alleles. As you say they would be 'AA' for a normal
bluebell, 'aa' for a recessive and 'Aa' for the bluebell that looks
normal
but is hybrid. So Aa x Aa = 1AA: 2 Aa: 1aa[white]
Also as you state Aa x aa = Aa : aa. and again the difficulty would be
in
recognising the Aa ~~ which is impossible.
However the white requires two pairs of recessive alleles and gives a
ratio
of 15 : 1 and then only having crossed [or self pollinated] a pair of
dihybrids.
For example pure blue would be 'AABB' 'and the white 'aabb'. The first
cross would be dihybrids 'AaBb'. Crossing two of these is not terribly
complicated mathematically but does give a ratio of 15 coloured to 1
white.
AABB:2AABb:AAbb:2AaBB:4AaBb:2Aabb:
aaBB:2aaBb:aabb. So only the aabb will be white. Those showing the A&b
can
be pink as can those showing a&B but differing slightly. Nine will look
the
normal blue.
--
Thanks! I was wondering about this this morning on the basis of '1
recessive gene expressed = pink, 2 = white?' which is in effect what
you've said ... on the principle that there is a pair of pink and blue
colourings in plants that seem very interlinked - as in cornflower,
geranium and borage family. Cornflower usually blue but pink and white
varieties readily available, geranium typically blue or pink (forgetting
about magenta for the time being), borage family often showing both in
same inflorescence as in forget-me-not and lungwort.

Also many blue flowers when dried turn pink.

Thus simplistic explanation is that there are two pigments, one a pink
one, one a readily decaying one which in combination with the pink gives
blue, and also that they are governed by separate alleles so that you
often encounter pink forms of the mainly blue flower. You've just
confirmed the genetic bit in bluebells - is it the same mechanism in the
other examples?
--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:

Kay,
Again you are quite correct.
Have you also noticed that blue flowers, when photographed, can often look
'magentarish'?

Especially if you use a Nikon 885 and some other models of Coolpix
cameras.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikoncp885/page15.asp
"Red / Cyan preference
What came as quite a surprise after browsing back through a days worth
of shooting was the 885's preference for the colours cyan and red
(more so red). Its colour processing algorithms appear to produce very
strong red (sometimes nearing over-saturation) but it doesn't treat
yellow, green or blue in the same way. Unlike the 995 there is no
colour saturation control on the 885 so if you don't like this strong
red saturation there's nothing that can be done in-camera.

This isn't something we saw of the 995's very well balanced images, as
you can see by the side-by-side colour patch comparison below. Note
especially the difference between the 885 and 995's magenta patch."


The Japanese apparently prefer magenterish colours, whilst the western
world prefers a bias to the blue end of the spectrum.