"Tumbleweed" wrote in
:


I don't know of any detailed tests. Do you? So far, we seem to be
working with anecdotal evidence on both sides of the discussion.

tests for what? Its a fact that greenfly populations are not
controlled by predators. Thet grow, thrive and survive untol the cold
weather comes.

And your source is? I'm not being awkward, I want to know! How do you
know for a fact that greenfly populations are not controlled by
predators?

A variety of factors makes the difference. randomness for one, nature
is like that. next year I might not have any and you might have lots .
Also, do you spray with water or soap or pinch them off when you see
them? I dont, maybe I should, as killing one greenfly at the start
will prevent a huge number a few weeks later. But is that ecological?
is killing them by a different means any better?

No, I don't usually bother here (I did in Cheshire or things went
crispy!). But why would human 'predation' make a difference if bird
predation doesn't?

Most of the plants I'm growing now, I was also growing in cheshire.

Plants that were severely affected by aphids in Cheshire include rose
'LD Braithwaite' & 'New Dawn', and several varieties of honeysuckle.
None are afflicted with more than the odd bug here.

Basil was a problem at both locations, but then I grow it on the
windowsill inside.

Here, cherry trees seem less prone to blackfly, though it is still an
issue.

Victoria
--
gardening on a north-facing hill
in South-East Cornwall
--

: example winter) or shortage of food. Pretending that nature will strike a
: balance which includes mopping up all the greenfly and caterpillars on
your
: plants is just that, a pretence.
:
: --
: Tumbleweed
:
: Remove my socks (they stink)for email address
:

No it's not a pretence, it really works, I have done it on my allotments and
only need to crush a few greenfly and blackfly between my fingers to give a
little help
:

"Jeff" wrote in message
m...
Hi.

What insects will eat greenfly (without then becoming pests
themselves)?
I know about ladybirds, but are there any others?

How do I either encourage ladybirds into my garden or breed them
myself? Ditto any other useful insects.

TIA, Jeff

*********
It has been my experience that ladybirds are completely ineffective in
greenfly control.
The problem is that I have never ever seen a plethora of ladybirds anywhere,
so when you look at a preponderance of greenfly on plants and the zero
effect the efforts of half a dozen ladybirds I can assure you that the
statement is a myth. In fact, I have observed ladybirds at "work" resting
on an infested leaf but I have never seen a ladybird scoff a greenfly. I
have never seen more than half a dozen at any one time. Can it be that
persons other than I have seen swarms of them?. I certainly have seen
swarms of green and blackfly many times. I most certainly have seen mnay
times swarms of ants collecting greenfly and toting them down the stems to
their storage underground crypts where they use them as milch cows.
Doug.
********

Sacha wrote in message k...

They are *extremely* tame not to say downright over-familiar! They whizz
past our noses, literally inches away - a chaffinch nearly hit me on the
head yesterday as we both went through the same doorway! Two years ago, my
stepson left his fleece hanging from a wire in the greenhouse and forgot it
overnight. Next morning, a wren was building a nest in the collar, so he
couldn't use that for a while. And another wren built a nest in some bits
and pieces of equipment stored a couple of feet above a potting bench where
there is always someone at work.
These last two years a wren has built her nest *under* a potting bench in
one of the houses and happily flits in and out, whoever is there.
The small double has a lot of stuff actually planted in it, and one side is
a great long bank of Fuchsias. People are walking up and down past them all
day choosing bedding plants etc. and those Fuchsias get many nests in them.
Cake and bread crumbs from the tea room go into a cardboard box in the big
double and birds flock to that. It's only inches away from the till and
there are people moving around constantly, walking past it, watching the
birds and so forth.
They hop onto tables while customers are eating - some flap them away - most
watch in fascination. They hop onto the table in the greenhouse when the
staff are having their morning coffee and cake and if you put your cake down
for a second, they're onto it like lightning! The water trough in the
garden has a small fountain in it and customers sitting at the tables nearby
often find themselves taking part in some bird's bath time, like it or not!

Apart from their own kind, there are no predators here, no cats and those
that visited were seen off by our Jack Russells. In fact, one of the
comments we get so often from customers is what pure joy it is both to hear
the birdsong and see them come so close to people. It does give a huge
feeling of privilege.


I haven't used any chemicals in my garden for several years now, my
nearest neighbours are over 400 yards away, so not likely to be
affected by whatever they use. I often find greenfly on my roses, but
wihtin a week they are clear, only thing that I do have problems with
is gosseberry sawfly, but then the plants recover and the fruit is
untouched. Having blue-tits nesting in a box next to a big rose bush
is useful as they dont have far to go when feeding young.

Mike

"Victoria Clare" wrote in message
.207...
"Tumbleweed" wrote in
:


I don't know of any detailed tests. Do you? So far, we seem to be
working with anecdotal evidence on both sides of the discussion.

tests for what? Its a fact that greenfly populations are not
controlled by predators. Thet grow, thrive and survive untol the cold
weather comes.

And your source is? I'm not being awkward, I want to know! How do you
know for a fact that greenfly populations are not controlled by
predators?

3 years of studying ecology at university. And I cant say I did greenfly in
particular, but its to do with the mathematics of how fast they grow
compared to their predators. They simpy outbreed them.

A variety of factors makes the difference. randomness for one, nature
is like that. next year I might not have any and you might have lots .
Also, do you spray with water or soap or pinch them off when you see
them? I dont, maybe I should, as killing one greenfly at the start
will prevent a huge number a few weeks later. But is that ecological?
is killing them by a different means any better?

No, I don't usually bother here (I did in Cheshire or things went
crispy!). But why would human 'predation' make a difference if bird
predation doesn't?

because the human one might kill the first ones, the ones that gives rise to
the thousands on a plant. The birds presumably arent going to bother until
there is a large jucy amount of them as it woudnt be energy efficient just
to look for single greenfly. THough I've never seen any of the small birds
in my garden eating greenfly. Lost of other insects but not greenfly. Too
small to botherwith?

Most of the plants I'm growing now, I was also growing in cheshire.

Plants that were severely affected by aphids in Cheshire include rose
'LD Braithwaite' & 'New Dawn', and several varieties of honeysuckle.
None are afflicted with more than the odd bug here.

Basil was a problem at both locations, but then I grow it on the
windowsill inside.

Here, cherry trees seem less prone to blackfly, though it is still an
issue.

Interesting, I get none on mine. But no cherries either, the birds have
those :-(

Victoria
--

--
Tumbleweed

Remove my socks for email address

Tumbleweed wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
m...

Hi.

What insects will eat greenfly (without then becoming pests
themselves)?
I know about ladybirds, but are there any others?

How do I either encourage ladybirds into my garden or breed them
myself? Ditto any other useful insects.

TIA, Jeff


You will never get enough predatory insects to make a significant impact on
greenfly. Some people here say birds will eat them (like tits and finches)
however no one has told that to the said birds on my garden who seem to
ignore them.
I recently saw small nesting type boxes screwed to 12 inch long sticks.
Instead of the usual 1" hole in the front for the bird to fly through
the box was enclosed except for several holes (approx. 6mm dia) drilled
through the front. Apparantly, the sticks are placed in the borders
over Autumn and Winter for ladybirds to nest in and then stuck in the
ground in greenhouses in the Spring to feed on aphids.
Simple but clever though not sure how effective they are.
Dave
Dave

On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 08:55:35 +0100, Jeannie wrote:

Letting nettles grow in your garden will attract many beneficial insects
including ladybirds, parasitic wasps, lacewings and hoverflies which will
all act as natural pest control.

Is it possible to grow nettles in pots so they don't get away
from you? Or do they cannily manage to sneak out the drainholes
and take off?

I don't consider myself an eco-freak of any description, but I
really like the idea of encouraging predatory insects in this
way. And I know where nettles abound, so I can dig male plants
and thereby avoid any seeding around. (Nettles aren't common
locally because it's generally too dry in summer, but they grow
luxuriantly in some damp places -- you have to know where to
look.)

And: are there any other plants that also encourage predatory
insects?


--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
[change "atlantic" to "pacific" and
"invalid" to "net" to reply by email]

In article , Tumbleweed
writes

3 years of studying ecology at university. And I cant say I did greenfly in
particular, but its to do with the mathematics of how fast they grow
compared to their predators. They simpy outbreed them.

If you haven't got greenfly, you won't have anything for the predators
to live on. Gardening in a wildlife friendly way involves maintaining
all levels of the food chain - take out the lower links and you'll lose
the whole chain.

OK, I know you're not trying to garden in a wildlife friendly way. I
think your aim is different from mine. If you can tolerate a low level
of greenfly - greenfly are present, but not killing plants - then the
predator approach works very well and has lots of added advantages in
terms of birds, butterflies and so on.

If you want a sterile garden with not a single greenfly in sight, then
you're going to have to resort to pesticides. In doing so you will, of
course, kill beneficial insects as well, but your plants will look
pristine.


because the human one might kill the first ones, the ones that gives rise to
the thousands on a plant. The birds presumably arent going to bother until
there is a large jucy amount of them as it woudnt be energy efficient just
to look for single greenfly. THough I've never seen any of the small birds
in my garden eating greenfly. Lost of other insects but not greenfly. Too
small to botherwith?

Do you have the right small birds? They're not all insect eaters.
Bluetits seem to be the best for eating aphids, as others have said, and
I often see them eating aphids on the honeysuckle outside the kitchen
window.


--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm

"Tumbleweed" wrote in
:

And your source is? I'm not being awkward, I want to know! How do
you know for a fact that greenfly populations are not controlled by
predators?

3 years of studying ecology at university. And I cant say I did
greenfly in particular, but its to do with the mathematics of how fast
they grow compared to their predators. They simpy outbreed them.

Could you could cite published research?

I too have a degree - and I know that it doesn't make me an expert on even
the stuff I did my postgrad work on! I just have an advantage when it
comes to knowing where to look things up.

I also have a number of friends with biology/ecology degrees who are wedded
to the idea of predator control, so I am suffering from mixed messages.
;-)

Victoria
--
gardening on a north-facing hill
in South-East Cornwall
--

Do you have the right small birds? They're not all insect eaters.
Bluetits seem to be the best for eating aphids, as others have said, and
I often see them eating aphids on the honeysuckle outside the kitchen
window.

How can you have "wrong" or "right" birds in the garden? Surely you
get what arrives don't you? You can't choose them. I can sort of see
your point though. I cannot stand magpies and chase them away at every
opportunity, so I suppose, for me, they must be the wrong birds. I do
the same with grey squirrels - nasty creatures.
John
In limine sapientiae

"Rodger Whitlock" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 08:55:35 +0100, Jeannie wrote:

Letting nettles grow in your garden will attract many beneficial insects
including ladybirds, parasitic wasps, lacewings and hoverflies which
will
all act as natural pest control.

Is it possible to grow nettles in pots so they don't get away
from you? Or do they cannily manage to sneak out the drainholes
and take off?

I don't consider myself an eco-freak of any description, but I
really like the idea of encouraging predatory insects in this
way. And I know where nettles abound, so I can dig male plants
and thereby avoid any seeding around. (Nettles aren't common
locally because it's generally too dry in summer, but they grow
luxuriantly in some damp places -- you have to know where to
look.)

I'm sure you would be able to grow them in pots although I have never tried.
When I took over my allotment they were everywhere, a sea of nettles in
fact. While I cleared most of the allotment, I left a nettle patch at the
back and there are lots of ladybirds on them at the moment. I also cut some
of the nettles down and put them in a water butt to make a foul smelling but
effective plant food.

I've heard that brambles are also good at attracting beneficial insects, but
I could be wrong about that. I'm sure a Google search will turn up loads of
info, like this, snipped from
http://www.derbyshire.gov.uk/smartli...artgardens.pdf
(Not sure if the link will work on the ng)

snipThe first is to encourage beneficial insects to visit your garden and
feed on the non-beneficial insects.The best plants to grow to attract
beneficial insects are some ofthe traditional cottage garden plants like
Achillea, Anaphalis (Yarrow), Asters,Calendula (Marigold), Eschscholzia
(California Poppy), Helianthus (Sunflower),Limnanthes ("poached egg") and
Solidago (Golden Rod).These may be grown asannuals crops, or the herbaceous
specimens may be grown in permanent plantingpockets.The second approach
involves growing plants that will provide support for non-beneficial
insects.

Planting to support non-beneficial insects may sound a little odd,but
attracting them to your garden by providing a food reserve means you will
also attract predatory beneficial insects like ladybirds and lacewings.The
most suitableplant for this is the common nettle, which is best cultivated
as mint - planted in acontainer to prevent unwanted spreading. This supports
nettle aphid which doesnot attack any other plant but does provide food for
the ladybird and lacewing.snip

HTH
Jeannie

"Jeannie" wrote in message
...
"Jeff" wrote in message
m...
Hi.

How do I either encourage ladybirds into my garden or breed them
myself? Ditto any other useful insects.

TIA, Jeff

I seem to remember a ladybird breeding kit being shown on one of the
stalls
at Chelsea during the BBC coverage. Can't remeber who was selling
it though
:-(
Letting nettles grow in your garden will attract many beneficial
insects
including ladybirds, parasitic wasps, lacewings and hoverflies which
will
all act as natural pest control.

The bottom line is that it is not really feasible to control pests
with a population of predators. The food supply is far too irregular
to maintain the defending army.

Franz

"Rodger Whitlock" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 08:55:35 +0100, Jeannie wrote:

Letting nettles grow in your garden will attract many beneficial
insects
including ladybirds, parasitic wasps, lacewings and hoverflies
which will
all act as natural pest control.

Is it possible to grow nettles in pots so they don't get away
from you? Or do they cannily manage to sneak out the drainholes
and take off?

How many nettles in how many pots would you need to attract enough
predators to cope with an infestation of green or blackfly? And how
are the predators to stay alive when they have eradicated the pests?

I don't consider myself an eco-freak of any description, but I
really like the idea of encouraging predatory insects in this
way. And I know where nettles abound, so I can dig male plants
and thereby avoid any seeding around. (Nettles aren't common
locally because it's generally too dry in summer, but they grow
luxuriantly in some damp places -- you have to know where to
look.)

And: are there any other plants that also encourage predatory
insects?

Franz

"Victoria Clare" wrote in message
.207...
"Tumbleweed" wrote in
:


I don't know of any detailed tests. Do you? So far, we seem to
be
working with anecdotal evidence on both sides of the discussion.

tests for what? Its a fact that greenfly populations are not
controlled by predators. Thet grow, thrive and survive untol the
cold
weather comes.

And your source is? I'm not being awkward, I want to know! How do
you
know for a fact that greenfly populations are not controlled by
predators?

A variety of factors makes the difference. randomness for one,
nature
is like that. next year I might not have any and you might have
lots .
Also, do you spray with water or soap or pinch them off when you
see
them? I dont, maybe I should, as killing one greenfly at the start
will prevent a huge number a few weeks later. But is that
ecological?
is killing them by a different means any better?

No, I don't usually bother here (I did in Cheshire or things went
crispy!). But why would human 'predation' make a difference if bird
predation doesn't?

It is a fact that bird predation is almost negligible. I have for
years successfully encouraged a healthily mixed population of various
garden birds, including insect eaters, of course.
That does not appear to have given me any marked protection against
this, that and the other sucking insects.
Human predation is a different matter. We are beings with vastly
improved intelligence compared with birds, we know what we wish to
eradicate and we know what murderous methods to apply to achieve our
goal. And when we have killed off every greenfly, we don't go hungry,
since they are not a food source for us.

Most of the plants I'm growing now, I was also growing in cheshire.

Plants that were severely affected by aphids in Cheshire include
rose
'LD Braithwaite' & 'New Dawn', and several varieties of honeysuckle.
None are afflicted with more than the odd bug here.

Basil was a problem at both locations, but then I grow it on the
windowsill inside.

Here, cherry trees seem less prone to blackfly, though it is still
an
issue.

Franz

"Sacha" wrote in message
...
On 2/6/04 16:21, in article
,
"Tumbleweed" wrote:


"Sacha" wrote in message
...
snip They feed on the peanuts in winter and
adults
will take them now, too but we often see them with their beaks
stuffed
with
'wrigglers' to take to their babies.

if you can see them wriggling, then either your birds are
remarkably tame
and let you get within 6 inches, or the wrigglers are not
greenfly!

They are *extremely* tame not to say downright over-familiar! They
whizz
past our noses, literally inches away - a chaffinch nearly hit me on
the
head yesterday as we both went through the same doorway!

But chaffinches are not particularly good at demolishing greenfly.

Two years ago, my
stepson left his fleece hanging from a wire in the greenhouse and
forgot it
overnight. Next morning, a wren was building a nest in the collar,
so he
couldn't use that for a while. And another wren built a nest in
some bits
and pieces of equipment stored a couple of feet above a potting
bench where
there is always someone at work.
These last two years a wren has built her nest *under* a potting
bench in
one of the houses and happily flits in and out, whoever is there.
The small double has a lot of stuff actually planted in it, and one
side is
a great long bank of Fuchsias. People are walking up and down past
them all
day choosing bedding plants etc. and those Fuchsias get many nests
in them.
Cake and bread crumbs from the tea room go into a cardboard box in
the big
double and birds flock to that. It's only inches away from the till
and
there are people moving around constantly, walking past it, watching
the
birds and so forth.
They hop onto tables while customers are eating - some flap them
away - most
watch in fascination. They hop onto the table in the greenhouse
when the
staff are having their morning coffee and cake and if you put your
cake down
for a second, they're onto it like lightning! The water trough in
the
garden has a small fountain in it and customers sitting at the
tables nearby
often find themselves taking part in some bird's bath time, like it
or not!

Apart from their own kind, there are no predators here, no cats and
those
that visited were seen off by our Jack Russells. In fact, one of
the
comments we get so often from customers is what pure joy it is both
to hear
the birdsong and see them come so close to people. It does give a
huge
feeling of privilege.

I agree entirely, except that the birds you mention do not actually
eat greenfly and blackfly to any noticeable extent.

Franz