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Old 14-08-2004, 07:29 AM
Stan The Man
 
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Default Agricultural vs Garden use

Part of my garden originally belonged to the neighbouring farmer; the
previous owner of my property bought half a field from him 15 years ago
and has since integrated it into the original garden here - laying
turf, planting shrubs, creating borders, laying a brick patio, putting
up a couple of garden sheds, etc. However, she never applied to the
local authority to change the use of the acquired land from
agricultural to garden use. I'm led to believe that it should be
straighforward for me to make an application now for garden use based
on lawful development over more than 10 years. But I am curious to know
why I need to do it. What can't I do on agricultural land that I can do
on garden land - and vice versa? TIA.

Simon

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Old 14-08-2004, 07:59 AM
Peter Crosland
 
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Default Agricultural vs Garden use

Stan The Man wrote:
Part of my garden originally belonged to the neighbouring farmer; the
previous owner of my property bought half a field from him 15 years
ago and has since integrated it into the original garden here - laying
turf, planting shrubs, creating borders, laying a brick patio, putting
up a couple of garden sheds, etc. However, she never applied to the
local authority to change the use of the acquired land from
agricultural to garden use. I'm led to believe that it should be
straighforward for me to make an application now for garden use based
on lawful development over more than 10 years. But I am curious to
know why I need to do it. What can't I do on agricultural land that I
can do on garden land - and vice versa? TIA.


You can apply to the local planning authority for a certificate of lawful
development that is normally granted. You can only use agricultural land for
agricultural purposes not as a domestic garden.


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Old 14-08-2004, 10:20 AM
PK
 
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Default Agricultural vs Garden use


"Stan The Man" wrote in message
...
. What can't I do on agricultural land that I can do
on garden land - and vice versa? TIA.



I'm sure that someone can give a better answer, but my understanding is that
Agricultural land is designated "open countryside" with a presumption
against development of housing or industry. domestic gardens are viewed
differently in the eyes of the planning authority with no automatic
presumption against development.

To take an agricultural field into a garden opens it up to development at
some future date. you can see the opportunity to buy a property on the
village edge. Extend the garden by 30m into a filed, then a few years later
sell off the garden as a building plot, or build a granny cottage on it.

pk


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Old 14-08-2004, 11:27 AM
Peter Crosland
 
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Default Agricultural vs Garden use

To take an agricultural field into a garden opens it up to
development at some future date. you can see the opportunity to buy a
property on the village edge. Extend the garden by 30m into a filed,
then a few years later sell off the garden as a building plot, or
build a granny cottage on it.


Unlikely to work because the developement limit will not include the
extended part. That is not to say it has not happened but the planners are
quite alert to such scams today.


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Old 14-08-2004, 01:09 PM
sarah
 
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Stan The Man wrote:

Part of my garden originally belonged to the neighbouring farmer; the
previous owner of my property bought half a field from him 15 years ago
and has since integrated it into the original garden here - laying
turf, planting shrubs, creating borders, laying a brick patio, putting
up a couple of garden sheds, etc. However, she never applied to the
local authority to change the use of the acquired land from
agricultural to garden use. I'm led to believe that it should be
straighforward for me to make an application now for garden use based
on lawful development over more than 10 years. But I am curious to know
why I need to do it. What can't I do on agricultural land that I can do
on garden land - and vice versa? TIA.


Forgive the x-post, but I know some denizens of uk.business.agriculture
may be able to advise you.

regards
sarah


--
Think of it as evolution in action.


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Old 14-08-2004, 05:36 PM
Jim Webster
 
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"sarah" wrote in message
...
Stan The Man wrote:

Part of my garden originally belonged to the neighbouring farmer; the
previous owner of my property bought half a field from him 15 years ago
and has since integrated it into the original garden here - laying
turf, planting shrubs, creating borders, laying a brick patio, putting
up a couple of garden sheds, etc. However, she never applied to the
local authority to change the use of the acquired land from
agricultural to garden use. I'm led to believe that it should be
straighforward for me to make an application now for garden use based
on lawful development over more than 10 years.


David P is better on dates, but I think that after 11 years you have got
'presumed permission' or suchlike
I'm not actually sure whether you need to notify them or not now.

But I am curious to know
why I need to do it. What can't I do on agricultural land that I can do
on garden land - and vice versa? TIA.


To a certain extent it is purely a bureaucratic exercise, you are 'changing
the use' so they want you to get permission from them to 'change the use'

Because a garden is domestic, it will be rated differently, but you get some
perks.
As an example, I rent a field next to a domestic property. The chap has up
to 60 pot bellied pigs on that property ( a third of an acre which includes
the house) and no slurry facilities. Pig slurry runs off his 'garden' onto
the field creating a stinking quagmire.
If the pig slurry had been running the other way the Council would have been
round there like a shot (within hours of the complaint) and all hell would
have broken lose.
In this case it has taken nearly a year for them to get round to sending him
with a letter telling him he shouldn't do it and must stop.

This flags up other things. I can keep 60 pigs (but need planning and
environment agency permission for new buildings, slurry systems etc, the
former depending upon size.)
You on a garden can keep 60 pigs provided they aren't causing a nuisance

Jim Webster


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Old 14-08-2004, 09:20 PM
Tim Lamb
 
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Default

In article , David P
writes
In article ,
says...
Stan The Man wrote:

Part of my garden originally belonged to the neighbouring farmer; the
previous owner of my property bought half a field from him 15 years ago
and has since integrated it into the original garden here - laying
turf, planting shrubs, creating borders, laying a brick patio, putting
up a couple of garden sheds, etc. However, she never applied to the
local authority to change the use of the acquired land from
agricultural to garden use. I'm led to believe that it should be
straighforward for me to make an application now for garden use based
on lawful development over more than 10 years. But I am curious to know
why I need to do it. What can't I do on agricultural land that I can do
on garden land - and vice versa? TIA.


Forgive the x-post, but I know some denizens of uk.business.agriculture
may be able to advise you.

First thing to do is to stack up the evidence. Precise dates of purchase
and laying out. Any neighbours who will give a sworn statement on the
dates/years when it all happened? Original owner/farmer to give
evidence?

Planners *hate* lawful use applications and will do everything they can
to demolish the arguments.

As to what you can do if it its ag.- basically just put it down to grass
and make sure there are no flower beds or other 'domestic' items on or
across it. This has been known to include [in a case in Derbyshire some
years ago] a clothes line across the 'ag. land'.

Good luck.


I can't add much to the above but suspect that planners are concerned
that land added to a domestic curtillage may enjoy permitted rights not
available on agricultural land.

I have been told that you can have as many domestic garages as you like
in your garden; it being assumed that you will not want to build more
than you need.

It may help if the extra land is to the rear of your property rather
than having road frontage and development potential.

ISTR, many years ago, that a farmers wife was forced to destroy a rose
garden she had planted on ag. land.

regards

--
Tim Lamb
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Old 14-08-2004, 10:29 PM
Old Codger
 
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"Tim Lamb" wrote in message


I have been told that you can have as many domestic garages as you
like in your garden; it being assumed that you will not want to build
more than you need.


Don't know about that. Do know that you need planning permission to build a
garage in your garden.

--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make people
believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]


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Old 14-08-2004, 10:34 PM
Jim Webster
 
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Default


"Old Codger" wrote in message
...
"Tim Lamb" wrote in message


I have been told that you can have as many domestic garages as you
like in your garden; it being assumed that you will not want to build
more than you need.


Don't know about that. Do know that you need planning permission to build

a
garage in your garden.


If it is less than a certain percentage of the ground area of the house
isn't it a permitted development?
A mate of mine needed permission but his garage was so large that they made
him sign a document to say he wasn't going to repair vehicles professionally

Jim Webster


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Old 15-08-2004, 12:02 AM
Old Codger
 
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Default

"Jim Webster" wrote in message

"Old Codger" wrote in message
...
"Tim Lamb" wrote in message


I have been told that you can have as many domestic garages as you
like in your garden; it being assumed that you will not want to
build more than you need.


Don't know about that. Do know that you need planning permission to
build a garage in your garden.


If it is less than a certain percentage of the ground area of the
house isn't it a permitted development?


Ah, you have a point but not quite that. There is a concept of permitted
development up to some percentage of the *original* floor area. Note
"original floor area" so it can only be done once. I would expect an
attached garage to come within this permitted development but I don't know
if it also applies to detached garages.

I tried it about 10 years ago. In the mid 70s I had added an additional 60%
floor space and a large detached garage. About 10 years ago we thought we
might like a couple of conservatories and renew and extend the carport. I
wrote to the council enquiring if I needed planning permission. Their
response: "If I had completed the development that had been approved in
1972 then I needed planning permission (been paying rates on the extended
property since 1975 but it was still "if"). I needed planning permission
for the carport as well as the conservatories. In the event we never built
the conservatories. When it came to it the wife decided she did not want
all that glass.

--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make people
believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]




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Old 15-08-2004, 07:07 AM
Jim Webster
 
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Default


"Old Codger" wrote in message
...
"Jim Webster" wrote in message

"Old Codger" wrote in message
...
"Tim Lamb" wrote in message


I have been told that you can have as many domestic garages as you
like in your garden; it being assumed that you will not want to
build more than you need.

Don't know about that. Do know that you need planning permission to
build a garage in your garden.


If it is less than a certain percentage of the ground area of the
house isn't it a permitted development?


Ah, you have a point but not quite that. There is a concept of permitted
development up to some percentage of the *original* floor area. Note
"original floor area" so it can only be done once. I would expect an
attached garage to come within this permitted development but I don't know
if it also applies to detached garages.

I tried it about 10 years ago. In the mid 70s I had added an additional

60%
floor space and a large detached garage. About 10 years ago we thought we
might like a couple of conservatories and renew and extend the carport. I
wrote to the council enquiring if I needed planning permission. Their
response: "If I had completed the development that had been approved in
1972 then I needed planning permission (been paying rates on the extended
property since 1975 but it was still "if"). I needed planning permission
for the carport as well as the conservatories. In the event we never

built
the conservatories. When it came to it the wife decided she did not want
all that glass.


I knew there was something about permitted development for domestic but it
wasn't something I have ever had anything to do with. Remember once seeing a
brick built house being built over a timber and tin smaller building while
that was still standing

Jim Webster


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Old 15-08-2004, 08:12 AM
Tim Lamb
 
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Default

In article , Jim Webster
writes

I knew there was something about permitted development for domestic but it
wasn't something I have ever had anything to do with. Remember once seeing a
brick built house being built over a timber and tin smaller building while
that was still standing


Section 11 restricts greenbelt house extensions to 40% of the original.
This is to prevent people converting gamekeepers cottages to desirable
mansions.

Once upon a time, an assessment was required to remove grade 1
agricultural land from production. I suspect this is no longer enforced.

regards
--
Tim Lamb
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Old 15-08-2004, 08:19 AM
GeorgeDawson
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Old Codger" wrote in message
...
"Tim Lamb" wrote in message


I have been told that you can have as many domestic garages as you
like in your garden; it being assumed that you will not want to

build
more than you need.


Don't know about that. Do know that you need planning permission to

build a
garage in your garden.

--


Under some conditions you can build upto a certain percentage of the
original house without pp. But not in the curtilage of a listed
building, not in front of the line of the house, but needs to be within
a certain distance (garden summerhouses at the end of a long garden can
be a problem). IIRC also in conservation areas the permitted
development rules are cancelled by the council.
--
George Dawson
Goat farmer


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Old 15-08-2004, 08:29 AM
Larry Stoter
 
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Default

VivienB wrote:

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 07:29:13 +0100, Stan The Man
wrote:

Part of my garden originally belonged to the neighbouring farmer; the
previous owner of my property bought half a field from him 15 years ago


Surely your solicitor/conveyancer should have sorted this out when you
bought the property?

Regards, VivienB


You have a quaint view of the competance of such people - in 3 house
purchases over the years, all the "problems" have been spotted by me
reading the paperwork carefully, not by the solicitors which we have
been paying.
--
Larry Stoter
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Old 15-08-2004, 08:29 AM
Larry Stoter
 
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Default

Stan The Man wrote:

Part of my garden originally belonged to the neighbouring farmer; the
previous owner of my property bought half a field from him 15 years ago
and has since integrated it into the original garden here - laying
turf, planting shrubs, creating borders, laying a brick patio, putting
up a couple of garden sheds, etc. However, she never applied to the
local authority to change the use of the acquired land from
agricultural to garden use. I'm led to believe that it should be
straighforward for me to make an application now for garden use based
on lawful development over more than 10 years. But I am curious to know
why I need to do it. What can't I do on agricultural land that I can do
on garden land - and vice versa? TIA.

Simon


We encountered a simiar situation 4 years ago when we bought our present
property.

The owner's mother, recently deceased, had owned a strip of land about
45 ft wide and 250 ft long. 'Originally' (i.e. 1930s and earlier, this
had been orchards. At some stage, before the 1960s (possibly earlier), a
number of agricultural building had been erected - including a hen house
and pig sty. The building were principly used for storage of
agricultural machinery.

During the 1970s, at the N end, a detached house was built and at the S
end, a bungalow was built. The owners mother occupied the bungalow and
the owner and his family occupied the house.

When we were purchasing the house, I made the observation to our
solicitor that it looked as though the 'garden' had never been a true
garden. Had planning permission been obtained?

If it had, nobody could prove it. There was evidence that planning
consent had been given for the house but this only included ~15 ft of
land to the rear of the house. During the intervening years, there had
been further development, so there was housing on all sides.

The District Council were worse than useless - on the 'phone, their
attitude was "... we can't see what all the fuss is about, it's
obviously a garden." Would they put that in writing? Absolutely not!

The real problem was that our lender would not proceed until the whole
problem was resolved. I even suggested that we split the purchase - the
lender advance us the money to buy the house, over which there was no
dispute, and we would pay cash for the land to the rear, and sort out
the useage later. The lender refused (the Halifax, as it happens).

We almost walked away but the combination of large rear garden and price
was exactly what we wanted and could afford.

The seller almost walked away until I carefully pointed out that it was
a problem that they would have to deal with sooner or later, before
selling, since any future purchaser would most likely also be relying on
a mortgage and their lender would certainly make similar objections.

The owner went through the process of getting a Certificate of Lawful
Use. No real problem, since the neighbours didn't want anybody keeping
pigs or hens on the land! However, this process took over 6 months!

Once the certificate was finally issued, the lender was prepared to
proceed. Something that did come out in all this was that our solicitor
was not only acting for us but was also acting for the lender, creating
a clear conflict of interest. Apparently, this is standard practise. I
would, however, strongly advise anybody buying a house to insist that
their solicitor/conveyancer act solely for them - if we had done this,
the whole problem might not have arisen.

As a final spanner in the works, ~2 weeks before completion, I had a
meeting with our solicitor and, going through the paperwork, noticed
that the rear boundary to the garden was in the wrong place! Prior to
selling the house, the owner had sold the bungalow. While his mother had
been alive, they had never had a fence between the properties - when he
sold, he'd just asked the purchaser where he wanted the fence and put it
up. Subsequently, he then proceeded to try to sell to us most of the
garden of the bungalow owner - who was not very please about it!

It seems that the owner had never bother to tell his solicotor about the
fence. To resolve this, the Land Registry had to come out and resurvey
the boundaries - another 6 weeks!

--
Larry Stoter


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