In the light of all the berries........
 

......... how can I protect my outside tap from freezing up?

Sue

Sue wrote:
: ........ how can I protect my outside tap from freezing up?
:
: Sue

Call me a spoil sort but the berries only tell the weather that has passed

Sue wrote:
:: ........ how can I protect my outside tap from freezing up?
::
:: Sue

Turn the water off at it's supply...draining it is unnecesary as any water
which remains inside it will expand out of the tap if you leave it in the
'on' position.
If it is connected directly to the mains and doesn't have it's own stop tap,
the above is obviously impossible...in this case you will have to lag it and
hope for the best, you can buy pipe lagging from any d.i.y place, make sure
it's the thick walled stuff (don't worry about the diameter of hole in the
middle) and you will have to cut it to shape to go completely around the
tap..if you have any pipework outside you'll have to do this as well but you
will struggle as it's nearly always butt up to the brickwork meaning that
you can't lag the back of it.

Or!!
If you are handy or know someone who is, you can buy a washing machine valve
and fit it to the pipe inside the house, before it goes through the wall and
turn it off from here...it should take no longer than 30 minutes to fit one
of these and no soldering is required, they simply tighten up with spanners.
http://snipurl.com/9ibf about a fiver!


Turn water off at mains.

drain cold water by turning on downstairs taps (and outside tap!)

cut through the copper pipe leading to outside tap, you may need to take
about an inch of pipe away.

fit valve and tighten nuts.

turn water mains back on s l o w l y ! - half a turn at
a time...when your sink tap starts running again, stop and check the valve
for leaks etc...use a piece of kitchen roll to check for minute drips.

HTH

Brilliant, I think I might ask my local, friendly plumber to come back and
fit a stop tap, everything else in the house has one and it sounds like a
sound investment to put one on this as well. Mind you, he might be
reluctant, this tap drenched him last time he was here, he thought he'd
turned off the stop but that turned out to be for the kitchen sink!

Thanks everyone,

Sue




"Phil L" wrote in message
. ..
Sue wrote:
:: ........ how can I protect my outside tap from freezing up?
::
:: Sue

Turn the water off at it's supply...draining it is unnecesary as any water
which remains inside it will expand out of the tap if you leave it in the
'on' position.
If it is connected directly to the mains and doesn't have it's own stop
tap,
the above is obviously impossible...in this case you will have to lag it
and
hope for the best, you can buy pipe lagging from any d.i.y place, make
sure
it's the thick walled stuff (don't worry about the diameter of hole in the
middle) and you will have to cut it to shape to go completely around the
tap..if you have any pipework outside you'll have to do this as well but
you
will struggle as it's nearly always butt up to the brickwork meaning that
you can't lag the back of it.

Or!!
If you are handy or know someone who is, you can buy a washing machine
valve
and fit it to the pipe inside the house, before it goes through the wall
and
turn it off from here...it should take no longer than 30 minutes to fit
one
of these and no soldering is required, they simply tighten up with
spanners.
http://snipurl.com/9ibf about a fiver!


Turn water off at mains.

drain cold water by turning on downstairs taps (and outside tap!)

cut through the copper pipe leading to outside tap, you may need to take
about an inch of pipe away.

fit valve and tighten nuts.

turn water mains back on s l o w l y ! - half a turn
at
a time...when your sink tap starts running again, stop and check the valve
for leaks etc...use a piece of kitchen roll to check for minute drips.

HTH

On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 16:48:43 +0200, Martin wrote:

On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 14:44:43 GMT, "Sue" wrote:

........ how can I protect my outside tap from freezing up?

Turn off the supply to it and then drain it.

I have trouble with this also. I turn off the inside tap, leave the
outside tap open, but it does not drain. The pipe goes down on the
wall, outside. (inside tap is in loft) I have lagged pipe and
outside tap and it has not frozen since I did this ( after several
years of having to have bits of pipe replaced because of bursts).
This is because the outside pipe does not drain. I'd welcome any tips
on how to do this.
I've also wrapped the tap itself in bubble wrap.

Pam in Bristol

"Phil L" wrote in message
. ..
Sue wrote:
:: ........ how can I protect my outside tap from freezing up?
::
:: Sue

Turn the water off at it's supply...draining it is unnecesary as any
water
which remains inside it will expand out of the tap if you leave it
in the
'on' position.

That depends on whether it freezes solid at the tap end first.

[snip]

Franz

Pam Moore wrote:
:: On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 16:48:43 +0200, Martin wrote:
::
::: On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 14:44:43 GMT, "Sue" wrote:
:::
:::: ........ how can I protect my outside tap from freezing up?
:::
::: Turn off the supply to it and then drain it.
::
:: I have trouble with this also. I turn off the inside tap, leave the
:: outside tap open, but it does not drain. The pipe goes down on the
:: wall, outside. (inside tap is in loft) I have lagged pipe and
:: outside tap and it has not frozen since I did this ( after several
:: years of having to have bits of pipe replaced because of bursts).
:: This is because the outside pipe does not drain. I'd welcome any
:: tips on how to do this.
:: I've also wrapped the tap itself in bubble wrap.
::
:: Pam in Bristol

the pipe can only burst (through frost) if the water inside it has nowhere
to expand to - it bursts through the pipe.
If the tap is left open, the water will simply expand through the outlet, it
can only burst if it has nowhere to expand.

Franz Heymann wrote:
:: "Phil L" wrote in message
:: . ..
::: Sue wrote:
::::: ........ how can I protect my outside tap from freezing up?
:::::
::::: Sue
:::
::: Turn the water off at it's supply...draining it is unnecesary as
::: any water which remains inside it will expand out of the tap if
::: you leave it in the 'on' position.
::
:: That depends on whether it freezes solid at the tap end first.
::
The water at the tap end will expand though the outlet...unless there's a
long pipe (half a metre or more)outside, this will not cause any problems.

The message
from "Sue" contains these words:

......... how can I protect my outside tap from freezing up?

Fill the pipe with gin.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

"Phil L" wrote in message
...
Pam Moore wrote:
:: On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 16:48:43 +0200, Martin
wrote:
::
::: On Sun, 03 Oct 2004 14:44:43 GMT, "Sue"
wrote:
:::
:::: ........ how can I protect my outside tap from freezing up?
:::
::: Turn off the supply to it and then drain it.
::
:: I have trouble with this also. I turn off the inside tap, leave
the
:: outside tap open, but it does not drain. The pipe goes down on
the
:: wall, outside. (inside tap is in loft) I have lagged pipe and
:: outside tap and it has not frozen since I did this ( after
several
:: years of having to have bits of pipe replaced because of bursts).
:: This is because the outside pipe does not drain. I'd welcome any
:: tips on how to do this.
:: I've also wrapped the tap itself in bubble wrap.
::
:: Pam in Bristol

the pipe can only burst (through frost) if the water inside it has
nowhere
to expand to - it bursts through the pipe.
If the tap is left open, the water will simply expand through the
outlet, it
can only burst if it has nowhere to expand.

Not a valid scenario if a solid plug of ice forms at the tap end
first.

Franz

"Phil L" wrote in message
. ..
Franz Heymann wrote:
:: "Phil L" wrote in message
:: . ..
::: Sue wrote:
::::: ........ how can I protect my outside tap from freezing up?
:::::
::::: Sue
:::
::: Turn the water off at it's supply...draining it is unnecesary as
::: any water which remains inside it will expand out of the tap if
::: you leave it in the 'on' position.
::
:: That depends on whether it freezes solid at the tap end first.
::
The water at the tap end will expand though the outlet...unless
there's a
long pipe (half a metre or more)outside, this will not cause any
problems.

Not if the water freezes solid at the tap end before the water in the
rest of the pipe begins to expand as it gets cold.

It is of the essence to realise that water starts expanding when its
temperature drops below 4 deg C, long before it freezes.

Franz

Franz Heymann wrote:
:: "Phil L" wrote in message
:: . ..
::: Franz Heymann wrote:
::::: "Phil L" wrote in message
::::: . ..
:::::: Sue wrote:
:::::::: ........ how can I protect my outside tap from freezing up?
::::::::
:::::::: Sue
::::::
:::::: Turn the water off at it's supply...draining it is unnecesary
:::::: as any water which remains inside it will expand out of the
:::::: tap if you leave it in the 'on' position.
:::::
::::: That depends on whether it freezes solid at the tap end first.
:::::
::: The water at the tap end will expand though the outlet...unless
::: there's a long pipe (half a metre or more)outside, this will not
::: cause any problems.
::
:: Not if the water freezes solid at the tap end before the water in
:: the rest of the pipe begins to expand as it gets cold.
::
:: It is of the essence to realise that water starts expanding when
:: its temperature drops below 4 deg C, long before it freezes.
::

Yes, it's the 'long before it freezes' which needs understanding... once it
has expanded enough to freeze solid, excess water has been pushed out
through the open tap.

It can only burst the pipe if it has nowhere else to go! - if there is an
outlet it will go through this (the tap)....to suggest that the tap is
colder than the pipework is false, the copper is less than a millimetre
thick while the brass is up to 10 mm, ergo the pipewater will freeze first,
pushing the rest of the water towards the outlet.

The message
from "Phil L" contains these words:

Yes, it's the 'long before it freezes' which needs understanding... once it
has expanded enough to freeze solid, excess water has been pushed out
through the open tap.

Not so, or ice would not float. Water expands by a significant amount as
it turns to ice.

It can only burst the pipe if it has nowhere else to go! - if there is an
outlet it will go through this (the tap)....to suggest that the tap is
colder than the pipework is false, the copper is less than a millimetre
thick while the brass is up to 10 mm, ergo the pipewater will freeze first,
pushing the rest of the water towards the outlet.

Nonsense - while it isn't colder, the tap is bulkier, so can drain heat
more efficiently from the copper and the water, whereas the thin copper
of the pipe has to give up heat to the water and to the surrounding air.

Air is not a good conductor, nor does it have a high energy potential.

However, leaving the tap open will certainly lessen the liklihood of a
burst, especially if the freezing is very slow. Ice at or near
freezing-point melts readily when under pressure, resulting in a certain
amount of it being pushed through the tap as ice, and once
unconstricted, the fluid fraction immediately freezes, making it appear
as if the ice has been pushed out as a lump.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:
:: The message
:: from "Phil L" contains these words:
::
::: Yes, it's the 'long before it freezes' which needs
::: understanding... once it has expanded enough to freeze solid,
::: excess water has been pushed out through the open tap.
::
:: Not so, or ice would not float. Water expands by a significant
:: amount as it turns to ice.
::

which is why the tap is open...

::: It can only burst the pipe if it has nowhere else to go! - if
::: there is an outlet it will go through this (the tap)....to
::: suggest that the tap is colder than the pipework is false, the
::: copper is less than a millimetre thick while the brass is up to
::: 10 mm, ergo the pipewater will freeze first, pushing the rest of
::: the water towards the outlet.
::
:: Nonsense - while it isn't colder, the tap is bulkier, so can drain
:: heat more efficiently from the copper and the water, whereas the
:: thin copper of the pipe has to give up heat to the water and to
:: the surrounding air.
::
The pipe contains 15 mm of water, encased in a 1 mm copper sheath, the tap
contains 25mm of water encased in a 10mm brass sheath, which is going to
freeze first?

:: Air is not a good conductor, nor does it have a high energy
:: potential.
::
:: However, leaving the tap open will certainly lessen the liklihood
:: of a burst, especially if the freezing is very slow. Ice at or near
:: freezing-point melts readily when under pressure, resulting in a
:: certain amount of it being pushed through the tap as ice, and once
:: unconstricted, the fluid fraction immediately freezes, making it
:: appear as if the ice has been pushed out as a lump.

Like I said, it expands out of the open tap.

"Phil L" wrote in message
...
Franz Heymann wrote:
:: "Phil L" wrote in message
:: . ..
::: Franz Heymann wrote:
::::: "Phil L" wrote in message
::::: . ..
:::::: Sue wrote:
:::::::: ........ how can I protect my outside tap from freezing up?
::::::::
:::::::: Sue
::::::
:::::: Turn the water off at it's supply...draining it is unnecesary
:::::: as any water which remains inside it will expand out of the
:::::: tap if you leave it in the 'on' position.
:::::
::::: That depends on whether it freezes solid at the tap end first.
:::::
::: The water at the tap end will expand though the outlet...unless
::: there's a long pipe (half a metre or more)outside, this will not
::: cause any problems.
::
:: Not if the water freezes solid at the tap end before the water in
:: the rest of the pipe begins to expand as it gets cold.
::
:: It is of the essence to realise that water starts expanding when
:: its temperature drops below 4 deg C, long before it freezes.
::

Yes, it's the 'long before it freezes' which needs understanding...
once it
has expanded enough to freeze solid, excess water has been pushed
out
through the open tap.

Not if it freezes at the tap end before the water higher up the pipe
has finished expanding.

It can only burst the pipe if it has nowhere else to go!

Thsat occurs immediately after the water in and near the tap has
solidified.

- if there is an
outlet it will go through this (the tap).

Not if the tap contains a solid plug of ice

...to suggest that the tap is
colder than the pipework is false, the copper is less than a
millimetre
thick while the brass is up to 10 mm, ergo the pipewater will freeze
first,
pushing the rest of the water towards the outlet.

That argument is as full of flaws as a colander is full of holes.
Also, you forgot that the tap will be wet if it is left open.
Evaporation will then help to cool the tap and promote local freezing.
The tap will have more roughnesses than the pipework itself, thereby
providing local nucleii for the onset of freezing.
The free droplets at the tap will be moved around by air currents,
thus preventing them from becoming a supercooled liquid and promoting
freezing.
I could go on for a very long time yet, but this is getting to be
boring.

Franz