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#16
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Tree Ferns hardiness
Michael Berridge wrote:
snips ..... I think the thing is that the Dicksonia will survive the removing and relocating whereas a full or even half grown oak would never do that. I beg to differ. Although it is not done now, in the 18th century (?) Capability Brown dug up, moved and successfuly replanted large, mature trees. There are a number of contemporary drawing/painting around showing this being done. Most of the lords having their parks lanscaped were not the sort of people to wait 150 years for a sampling to mature! As long as they do have the export license then I see no reason not to have them in the UK, it is those people who dig up and sell plants from the wild with no controls that is the real problem. Couldn't agree more - from ignorant vandals digging up Bluebells in English woods to groups in in for money, taking snowdrop and tulip bulbs from the wild in Turkey and Greece. Mike www.british-naturism.org.uk However, just because something may currently be legal doesn't mean the situation won't, and shouldn't change. -- Larry Stoter |
#17
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Tree Ferns hardiness
DaveDay34 wrote:
I don't think Larry understands how little the Dicksonia are actually worth in NZ. They aren't worth developing a site just to get at them. They wouldn't make the difference between a site being profitable to develop or not. They don't tip the balance, and as the sites would be developed anyway, it's better that the plants are relocated rather than destroyed. If the long term view is that we should stop developing sites where tree ferns grow, then all well and good. In the mean time, I see no point in stopping the relocation of such ferns. Dave. But they aren't worthless, are they, because many people in Europe are prepared to buy them. And while their value won't stop many developments, in the case of marginal developments, it could be the deciding point. Anyway, I think my main concern is that these plants are old - as these forests are destroyed, they are gone for good. And in perhaps 100 years time, they will be gone and not easily regrown. I just wish people would conside a rather longer term view than next week. -- Larry Stoter |
#18
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Tree Ferns hardiness
Serendipity wrote:
Just how hardy are Tree Ferns. I live in SW UK They had a few outside at The Eden Project when I visited it last week. -- Nick Wagg TranscenData Europe Ltd, Oakington House, Oakington, Cambridge CB4 5AF Email: URL: www.transcendata.com Tel: +44 (0)1223 237111 Fax: +44 (0)1223 234192 |
#19
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Tree Ferns hardiness
Xref: 127.0.0.1 uk.rec.gardening:161341
On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:27:13 +0000, Nick Wagg wrote: Serendipity wrote: Just how hardy are Tree Ferns. I live in SW UK They had a few outside at The Eden Project when I visited it last week. .................................................. .................................................. ................ Nick. Yep, I noticed them when I visited last week also. (for the seventh time!) It appears that my question lots of advice and comment. A very upset Kiwi had quite a bit to say about the export - from New Zealand - of these lovely plants. Although he took quite considerable flak from affecionados, I think it's good to see that there are still those around who care about the plants for more than looking good in the garden, what say you? By the way, the one which I planted six months ago has thrown up lots of suckers. I was going to pull them out but they look so attractive and have transformed an uninteresting spot into a talking point with friends and neighbours. John .................................................. .............................................. |
#20
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Tree Ferns hardiness
Tristan Hatton-Ellis wrote:
On 27/10/02 8:51 am, in article , "Larry Stoter" wrote: DaveDay34 wrote: I don't think Larry understands how little the Dicksonia are actually worth in NZ. They aren't worth developing a site just to get at them. They wouldn't make the difference between a site being profitable to develop or not. They don't tip the balance, and as the sites would be developed anyway, it's better that the plants are relocated rather than destroyed. If the long term view is that we should stop developing sites where tree ferns grow, then all well and good. In the mean time, I see no point in stopping the relocation of such ferns. Dave. But they aren't worthless, are they, because many people in Europe are prepared to buy them. And while their value won't stop many developments, in the case of marginal developments, it could be the deciding point. Anyway, I think my main concern is that these plants are old - as these forests are destroyed, they are gone for good. And in perhaps 100 years time, they will be gone and not easily regrown. I just wish people would conside a rather longer term view than next week. Larry, As a conservationist myself I have a lot of sympathy for your position. I also feel rather sorry for the gnarled, prehistoric looking trunks selling for massive prices in our garden centres. Most of them, I suspect, are destined for a rapid death. You are right to emphasise the importance of the habitat - there are many other species at stake than just tree ferns, and it is not appropriate to kid ourselves that we are bringing plants into cultivation to 'conserve' them. The average lifespan of a garden is much less than that of a forest. However, that said, I really don't see the problem with a strictly controlled programme of tree fern removal from sites that are earmarked for development anyway. The problem comes when tree fern 'harvesting' becomes the reason for the 'development'. I don't know what the situation is in new Zealand but digging up of plants for horticulture is certainly a problem elsewhere in the world, either illegally or by abuse of permit systems. How does the planning system work in NZ - is tree fern removal taken into account inn the cost-benefit analysis? If it isn't, then the sale of ferns can't be used to encourage development, at least in the formal process. Has anybody in NZ tried growing tree ferns on a sustainable basis for export? Not all tree ferns in the UK are old trunks stripped from the wild though. Many are young plants grown from spores. These grow more quickly than you might think in our rainy isle, are more likely to transplant successfully, and given a little protection, are more likely to adapt to our winters. Tristan I don't kmow the details of the regulations in New Zealand but am prepared to accept that it is regulated (but are the regulations properly enforced?). My concerns are principally: 1. Regulation makes it legal but doesn't make it right and who says the regulations will ensure the plants are not wiped out. Large scale destruction of natural resources - regulated or not - is, historically, the prelude to their demise. For example, the fishing industry in the North Sea has been regulated for years - and it has been equally obvious to anybody who thinks about it that for years we have been heading straight towards where we are now - closure of the whole fishery because Cod are on the brink of extinction around our coasts. 2. Emotionally, I find it impossible to accept the removal of 150 year plants from the wild - as do many others. Look at the fuss there is in this country when developers - completely legally - remove old trees. If it isn't acceptable in the UK, then it isn't acceptable in New Zealand or anywhere else. -- Larry Stoter |
#21
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Tree Ferns hardiness
I don't kmow the details of the regulations in New Zealand but am
prepared to accept that it is regulated (but are the regulations properly enforced?). My concerns are principally: 1. Regulation makes it legal but doesn't make it right and who says the regulations will ensure the plants are not wiped out. Large scale destruction of natural resources - regulated or not - is, historically, the prelude to their demise. For example, the fishing industry in the North Sea has been regulated for years - and it has been equally obvious to anybody who thinks about it that for years we have been heading straight towards where we are now - closure of the whole fishery because Cod are on the brink of extinction around our coasts. 2. Emotionally, I find it impossible to accept the removal of 150 year plants from the wild - as do many others. Look at the fuss there is in this country when developers - completely legally - remove old trees. If it isn't acceptable in the UK, then it isn't acceptable in New Zealand or anywhere else. -- Larry Stoter Considering the relatively minimal amount of development going on in NZ I find it incredible that Larry's pursuing this point. There's a lot more damage being done in the rain forrests of South America. I would have thought if anything was going to upset anyone, it would have been the wholesale destruction of hundreds of thousands of acres of rainforest, not the relatively small number of tree ferns being relocated from NZ to other parts of the world. I understand Larry being concerned about the environment, and I think we've all heard what he has to say, but this is a UK based gardening newsgroup, not a newsgroup for environmental campaigners. This issue involves the NZ government and can only be changed there, not within the UK. Maybe this thread could be wound up now? Dave. |
#22
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Tree Ferns hardiness
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#23
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Tree Ferns hardiness
DaveDay34 wrote:
Considering the relatively minimal amount of development going on in NZ I find it incredible that Larry's pursuing this point. There's a lot more damage being done in the rain forrests of South America. I would have thought if anything was going to upset anyone, it would have been the wholesale destruction of hundreds of thousands of acres of rainforest, not the relatively small number of tree ferns being relocated from NZ to other parts of the world. I understand Larry being concerned about the environment, and I think we've all heard what he has to say, but this is a UK based gardening newsgroup, not a newsgroup for environmental campaigners. This issue involves the NZ government and can only be changed there, not within the UK. Maybe this thread could be wound up now? Dave. Not sure where I said I wasn't concerned about destruction of rain forests (South American and elsewhere). Indeed, I would urge anybody considering buying currently trendy hardwood garden furniture to at least check that it originates from a managed and sustainable source. Although, I read a while back that almost no tropical hardwood has such origins, despite certification to the contrary. Widespread corruption in Indonesia, for example, makes most such certification worthless. English oak or beech - from a properly managed woodland - is a much better choice. I am also concerned about gardeners persistent use of peat, extracted from lowland English peat bogs - definitely not sustainable. And sorry, from personal experience, I simply do not believe that there are not acceptable substitutes. Possibly not as good but still very effective. The whole point of my argument is precisely that consumer choices in the UK do have an influence on what happens in other parts of the world. And that includes what gardeners buy for their gardens. Almost every gardening programme is now promoting tree ferns for their architectural qualities (hence my view that they are a "fashionable" plant). And while I quite appreciate that not buying tree ferns, in itself, won't stop their destruction, every little will help. Especially if they can be grown from spores easily, as somebody has commented. And if you aren't interested in reading my views, nobody is actually forcing you to so do. -- Larry Stoter |
#24
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Tree Ferns hardiness
Janet Baraclough wrote:
The message from (DaveDay34) contains these words: I understand Larry being concerned about the environment, and I think we've all heard what he has to say, but this is a UK based gardening newsgroup, not a newsgroup for environmental campaigners. This issue involves the NZ government and can only be changed there, not within the UK. That's a cop out. Whether or not one agrees with Larry's particular concern here, there's no ducking away from the fact that UK consumers are responsible for far-distant ethical and environmental issues driven by their long-reaching spending power. Precisely. Maybe this thread could be wound up now? Dave, if you hope a thread can be wound up when any individual participant rings the bell, you have a great deal to learn about usenet. Janet. -- Larry Stoter |
#25
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Tree Ferns hardiness
"Larry Stoter" wrote:
... Indeed, I would urge anybody considering buying currently trendy hardwood garden furniture to at least check that it originates from a managed and sustainable source. I can assure you Larry that there is absolutely nothing trendy or fashionable about garden furniture or garden anything else round here just now. In fact, the entire garden is shut down until this weather gets a little more pleasant as far as I am concerned. -- William Tasso - The road to hell is littered with fallen webmasters. http://www.tbdata.com/ |
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