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Old 27-10-2002, 09:51 AM
Larry Stoter
 
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Default Tree Ferns hardiness

Michael Berridge wrote:

snips .....
I think the thing is that the Dicksonia will survive the removing and
relocating whereas a full or even half grown oak would never do that.


I beg to differ. Although it is not done now, in the 18th century (?)
Capability Brown dug up, moved and successfuly replanted large, mature
trees. There are a number of contemporary drawing/painting around
showing this being done. Most of the lords having their parks lanscaped
were not the sort of people to wait 150 years for a sampling to mature!

As long as they do have the export license then I see no reason not to
have them in the UK, it is those people who dig up and sell plants from
the wild with no controls that is the real problem.


Couldn't agree more - from ignorant vandals digging up Bluebells in
English woods to groups in in for money, taking snowdrop and tulip bulbs
from the wild in Turkey and Greece.

Mike
www.british-naturism.org.uk


However, just because something may currently be legal doesn't mean the
situation won't, and shouldn't change.

--
Larry Stoter
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Old 27-10-2002, 09:51 AM
Larry Stoter
 
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Default Tree Ferns hardiness

DaveDay34 wrote:

I don't think Larry understands how little the Dicksonia are actually
worth in NZ. They aren't worth developing a site just to get at them.
They wouldn't make the difference between a site being profitable to
develop or not. They don't tip the balance, and as the sites would be
developed anyway, it's better that the plants are relocated rather than
destroyed.

If the long term view is that we should stop developing sites where tree
ferns grow, then all well and good. In the mean time, I see no point in
stopping the relocation of such ferns.

Dave.


But they aren't worthless, are they, because many people in Europe are
prepared to buy them. And while their value won't stop many
developments, in the case of marginal developments, it could be the
deciding point.

Anyway, I think my main concern is that these plants are old - as these
forests are destroyed, they are gone for good. And in perhaps 100 years
time, they will be gone and not easily regrown.

I just wish people would conside a rather longer term view than next
week.
--
Larry Stoter
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Old 28-10-2002, 03:27 PM
Nick Wagg
 
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Default Tree Ferns hardiness

Serendipity wrote:

Just how hardy are Tree Ferns.
I live in SW UK


They had a few outside at The Eden Project when I visited it last week.
--
Nick Wagg
TranscenData Europe Ltd, Oakington House, Oakington, Cambridge CB4 5AF
Email: URL: www.transcendata.com
Tel: +44 (0)1223 237111 Fax: +44 (0)1223 234192
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Old 28-10-2002, 07:43 PM
Serendipity
 
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Default Tree Ferns hardiness

Xref: 127.0.0.1 uk.rec.gardening:161341

On Mon, 28 Oct 2002 14:27:13 +0000, Nick Wagg
wrote:

Serendipity wrote:

Just how hardy are Tree Ferns.
I live in SW UK


They had a few outside at The Eden Project when I visited it last week.

.................................................. .................................................. ................

Nick.
Yep, I noticed them when I visited last week also. (for the
seventh time!)

It appears that my question lots of advice and comment. A very
upset Kiwi had quite a bit to say about the export - from New Zealand
- of these lovely plants. Although he took quite considerable flak
from affecionados, I think it's good to see that there are still those
around who care about the plants for more than looking good in the
garden, what say you?

By the way, the one which I planted six months ago has thrown
up lots of suckers. I was going to pull them out but they look so
attractive and have transformed an uninteresting spot into a talking
point with friends and neighbours.

John
.................................................. ..............................................

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Old 02-11-2002, 12:35 PM
Larry Stoter
 
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Default Tree Ferns hardiness

Tristan Hatton-Ellis wrote:

On 27/10/02 8:51 am, in article
, "Larry Stoter" wrote:

DaveDay34 wrote:

I don't think Larry understands how little the Dicksonia are actually
worth in NZ. They aren't worth developing a site just to get at them.
They wouldn't make the difference between a site being profitable to
develop or not. They don't tip the balance, and as the sites would be
developed anyway, it's better that the plants are relocated rather than
destroyed.

If the long term view is that we should stop developing sites where tree
ferns grow, then all well and good. In the mean time, I see no point in
stopping the relocation of such ferns.

Dave.


But they aren't worthless, are they, because many people in Europe are
prepared to buy them. And while their value won't stop many
developments, in the case of marginal developments, it could be the
deciding point.

Anyway, I think my main concern is that these plants are old - as these
forests are destroyed, they are gone for good. And in perhaps 100 years
time, they will be gone and not easily regrown.

I just wish people would conside a rather longer term view than next
week.


Larry,

As a conservationist myself I have a lot of sympathy for your position. I
also feel rather sorry for the gnarled, prehistoric looking trunks selling
for massive prices in our garden centres. Most of them, I suspect, are
destined for a rapid death.

You are right to emphasise the importance of the habitat - there are many
other species at stake than just tree ferns, and it is not appropriate to
kid ourselves that we are bringing plants into cultivation to 'conserve'
them. The average lifespan of a garden is much less than that of a forest.

However, that said, I really don't see the problem with a strictly
controlled programme of tree fern removal from sites that are earmarked for
development anyway. The problem comes when tree fern 'harvesting' becomes
the reason for the 'development'. I don't know what the situation is in new
Zealand but digging up of plants for horticulture is certainly a problem
elsewhere in the world, either illegally or by abuse of permit systems. How
does the planning system work in NZ - is tree fern removal taken into
account inn the cost-benefit analysis? If it isn't, then the sale of ferns
can't be used to encourage development, at least in the formal process.
Has anybody in NZ tried growing tree ferns on a sustainable basis for
export?

Not all tree ferns in the UK are old trunks stripped from the wild though.
Many are young plants grown from spores. These grow more quickly than you
might think in our rainy isle, are more likely to transplant successfully,
and given a little protection, are more likely to adapt to our winters.

Tristan


I don't kmow the details of the regulations in New Zealand but am
prepared to accept that it is regulated (but are the regulations
properly enforced?).

My concerns are principally:

1. Regulation makes it legal but doesn't make it right and who says the
regulations will ensure the plants are not wiped out. Large scale
destruction of natural resources - regulated or not - is, historically,
the prelude to their demise. For example, the fishing industry in the
North Sea has been regulated for years - and it has been equally obvious
to anybody who thinks about it that for years we have been heading
straight towards where we are now - closure of the whole fishery because
Cod are on the brink of extinction around our coasts.

2. Emotionally, I find it impossible to accept the removal of 150 year
plants from the wild - as do many others. Look at the fuss there is in
this country when developers - completely legally - remove old trees. If
it isn't acceptable in the UK, then it isn't acceptable in New Zealand
or anywhere else.
--
Larry Stoter


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Old 02-11-2002, 02:36 PM
DaveDay34
 
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Default Tree Ferns hardiness

I don't kmow the details of the regulations in New Zealand but am
prepared to accept that it is regulated (but are the regulations
properly enforced?).

My concerns are principally:

1. Regulation makes it legal but doesn't make it right and who says the
regulations will ensure the plants are not wiped out. Large scale
destruction of natural resources - regulated or not - is, historically,
the prelude to their demise. For example, the fishing industry in the
North Sea has been regulated for years - and it has been equally obvious
to anybody who thinks about it that for years we have been heading
straight towards where we are now - closure of the whole fishery because
Cod are on the brink of extinction around our coasts.

2. Emotionally, I find it impossible to accept the removal of 150 year
plants from the wild - as do many others. Look at the fuss there is in
this country when developers - completely legally - remove old trees. If
it isn't acceptable in the UK, then it isn't acceptable in New Zealand
or anywhere else.
--
Larry Stoter









Considering the relatively minimal amount of development going on in NZ I find
it incredible that Larry's pursuing this point. There's a lot more damage
being done in the rain forrests of South America. I would have thought if
anything was going to upset anyone, it would have been the wholesale
destruction of hundreds of thousands of acres of rainforest, not the relatively
small number of tree ferns being relocated from NZ to other parts of the world.

I understand Larry being concerned about the environment, and I think we've all
heard what he has to say, but this is a UK based gardening newsgroup, not a
newsgroup for environmental campaigners. This issue involves the NZ government
and can only be changed there, not within the UK. Maybe this thread could be
wound up now?

Dave.
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Old 03-11-2002, 10:41 AM
Larry Stoter
 
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Default Tree Ferns hardiness

DaveDay34 wrote:

Considering the relatively minimal amount of development going on in NZ I
find it incredible that Larry's pursuing this point. There's a lot more
damage being done in the rain forrests of South America. I would have
thought if anything was going to upset anyone, it would have been the
wholesale destruction of hundreds of thousands of acres of rainforest, not
the relatively small number of tree ferns being relocated from NZ to other
parts of the world.

I understand Larry being concerned about the environment, and I think
we've all heard what he has to say, but this is a UK based gardening
newsgroup, not a newsgroup for environmental campaigners. This issue
involves the NZ government and can only be changed there, not within the
UK. Maybe this thread could be wound up now?

Dave.


Not sure where I said I wasn't concerned about destruction of rain
forests (South American and elsewhere). Indeed, I would urge anybody
considering buying currently trendy hardwood garden furniture to at
least check that it originates from a managed and sustainable source.

Although, I read a while back that almost no tropical hardwood has such
origins, despite certification to the contrary. Widespread corruption in
Indonesia, for example, makes most such certification worthless. English
oak or beech - from a properly managed woodland - is a much better
choice.

I am also concerned about gardeners persistent use of peat, extracted
from lowland English peat bogs - definitely not sustainable. And sorry,
from personal experience, I simply do not believe that there are not
acceptable substitutes. Possibly not as good but still very effective.

The whole point of my argument is precisely that consumer choices in the
UK do have an influence on what happens in other parts of the world. And
that includes what gardeners buy for their gardens. Almost every
gardening programme is now promoting tree ferns for their architectural
qualities (hence my view that they are a "fashionable" plant). And while
I quite appreciate that not buying tree ferns, in itself, won't stop
their destruction, every little will help.

Especially if they can be grown from spores easily, as somebody has
commented.

And if you aren't interested in reading my views, nobody is actually
forcing you to so do.
--
Larry Stoter
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Old 03-11-2002, 10:53 AM
William Tasso
 
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Default Tree Ferns hardiness

"Larry Stoter" wrote:
...
Indeed, I would urge anybody
considering buying currently trendy hardwood garden furniture to at
least check that it originates from a managed and sustainable source.


I can assure you Larry that there is absolutely nothing trendy or
fashionable about garden furniture or garden anything else round here just
now. In fact, the entire garden is shut down until this weather gets a
little more pleasant as far as I am concerned.

--
William Tasso - The road to hell is littered with fallen webmasters.
http://www.tbdata.com/


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