On 12/12/04 18:34, in article ,
"Rod" wrote:
snip Not much to add to what's already been said except do base your use
of
lime on evidence from pH tests and don't overdo it - especially
hydrated lime, an excess of Calcium can cause problems like rendering
some minor nutrients unavailable. This is a particular problem with
brassicas like caulis. Dolomite (Magnesian) limestone which is a
variable mix of Calcium and Magnesium carbonates etc is useful where
you want to get the pH up without overdoing the Calcium.

=================================================

Doesn't too much lime in the soil give potatoes scab?
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds to email me)

Sacha wrote:
On 12/12/04 18:34, in article
, "Rod"
wrote: snip Not much to add
to what's already been said except do base your use of
lime on evidence from pH tests and don't overdo it - especially
hydrated lime, an excess of Calcium can cause problems like
rendering
some minor nutrients unavailable. This is a particular problem
with
brassicas like caulis. Dolomite (Magnesian) limestone which is a
variable mix of Calcium and Magnesium carbonates etc is useful
where
you want to get the pH up without overdoing the Calcium.

=================================================

Doesn't too much lime in the soil give potatoes scab?

Yep. If one limes at all, it should in theory be in a planned
rotation so the potatoes go into the place which is due to be limed
next, while the cabbages go into the bit which has just been limed.
(!)

Mike

Maybe facts would be better than Thoughts

Soil is limed as and when necessary to counteract its natural tendency to
become more acidic and to create and maintain optimum conditions for plant
growth. Soils may be alkaline (chalk or limestone soils) or acidic (peaty
soils) in reaction. An alkaline soil contains lots of calcium - an element
required in small amounts by all plants. In very acid soils there is a
shortage of calcium salts. The acidity or alkalinity of a soil is measured
on the pH scale, which ranges from zero (exceedingly acid) through 7
(neutral) to 14 (exceedingly alkaline). In Britain most soils tend to be
slightly acidic due to rain constantly leaching out the calcium. Luckily,
most plants will thrive if the acidity of the soil can be adjusted to a
compromise pH of 6.0-6.5. Club root disease of brassicas flourishes in acid
soils but can usually be controlled if the soil can be held at a pH 7.5 (the
upper pH limit for this class of vegetable). Simple soil testing kits,
available from garden centres, enable you to determine the pH of your soil.
They also give a list of plant pH preferences and the amount of ground
limestone that you need to apply to raise the pH by one unit.

It is always preferable to use lime in the form of ground limestone (or
chalk), which is safe and easy to apply. Hydrated lime (slaked lime,
builder's lime) is available but its caustic nature means that it must be
handled with care and applied with care to avoid damaging plants in the
vicinity. If possible, apply the lime in autumn or after winter digging so
that the rains wash it in slowly. Choose a calm day and spread it evenly by
hand. Never use lime at the same time as manure or nitrogenous fertilisers
as it may react chemically with them and reduce their effectiveness. If you
are in a rush, apply the lime to soil that has been raked to a fine tilth
and distribute it by raking well into the top few inches. Water the area and
allow it to stand for a week before applying a nitrogenous fertilise

The RHS have this to say about lime and liming

Liming of garden soils is a long-standing horticultural practice, but the
rationale behind it is often overlooked.

Liming helps to maintain a balance between the soil's acidity and its
alkalinity. This degree of acidity or alkalinity is measured using the pH
scale, ranging from 1 (highly acidic) to 14 (highly alkaline). An increase
in pH from 6 to 7, for example, records a 10-fold increase in alkalinity. A
pH of 7 is neutral, with conditions neither acid, nor alkaline. In garden
soils, you are unlikely to experience soil pH values outside a range of
pH4-pH9.

The optimum pH for most garden plants and vegetables is 6.5 (slightly acid).
If the pH varies significantly from this value, plants may exhibit signs of
nutrient deficiency. High pH levels cause a reduction in phosphate and trace
element availability, while low pH levels reduce the availability of
nitrogen, potassium and magnesium, and discourage earthworm activity.

Clubroot disease
Lime provides a source of calcium and raises the soil pH. It is used to
counter acidity brought about by the effects of certain acidic fertilisers
and the action of rainwater, a weak acid. Soil structure, particularly in
clay soils, may also be improved by lime applications. Reducing the acidity
of soil by liming can encourage improved root development and increase the
number of micro-organisms. These in turn improve the crumb structure and
organic matter levels in the soil ultimately leading to improved crop
growth. Lime can also discourage serious diseases including club root of
brassicas such as kohl rabi.

A soil pH test
It is important to carry out a pH test to determine whether liming is
necessary. If your soil already has a pH of 6.5 or higher, liming will be of
little benefit and may in fact be detrimental. The autumn is the best season
for liming soils, just prior to digging, as the lime can take effect over
the winter months and will not damage young growth. Lime should not be
applied at the same time as organic matter or fertilisers, when it may cause
the release of ammonia, which wastes nitrogen and may damage tender growth.

The two types of lime commonly used by amateur gardeners are calcium
hydroxide (hydrated lime) and calcium carbonate (ground limestone or chalk).
Calcium hydroxide is soluble in water and has a stronger liming action than
calcium carbonate, but is less pleasant to handle and easier to over apply.
Calcium carbonate is now the most widely available and preferred liming
material. It is sold under various names such as carbonate of lime, garden
lime, ground limestone or ground chalk.

Applying lime to soil
Application rates vary with soil type and degree of pH change required. As a
general rule, a loam soil will require an application of 190g per sq m (6oz
per sq yd) of calcium carbonate to raise the pH by half a unit. A clay soil
will require 420g per sq m (12oz per sq yd) and a sandy soil slightly less -
140g per sq m (4oz per sq yd). If a greater change in pH is required, it is
better to add the lime in small amounts over a period of time (rather than
all at once).



--
David Hill

www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk

Sacha wrote:
On 12/12/04 17:41, in article , "Mike
Lyle" wrote:

Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:
The message
from contains these words:

/quicklime/

It was used in plague pits.

Not very recently, I would venture to suggest. In 'official
circles'
the myth that it had a caustic action on bodies lasted well into
the
last century.

O. Wilde, _The Ballad of Reading Gaol_ "We could tell the work
they
had been at / By the quicklime on their boots."

I wonder, though, if the plague pit theory wasn't in fact quite a
good one: the stuff is, after all, caustic, and by reacting with
soil
moisture and to some extent with exposed parts of the bodies might
have provided a sort of cordon sanitaire.


Wasn't there some association with the use of lime and an infamous
murderer - Crippen, perhaps? Years ago, I remember reading a
Dornford Yates novel in which a murderer used slaked lime instead
of
quicklime and thus preserved the body he had hoped to destroy,
which
was buried in a pit in a barn, IIRC. I think. ;-)

Good Heavens above! Somebody as young as you who's read Dornford
Yates! I ought to rush round and do a piece for the Sunday Telegraph!

(I don't know when I last used so many exclamation marks in a single
month.)

Mike.

"Phil L" wrote in message
.uk...
Franz Heymann wrote:

You edited wrongly. I did not write any of the stuff which has three
colons.
My meagre contribution was only the bit low down with 2 colons.
Why do you use colons for attribution marks? They are difficult to
see. Have a shot at using "" like everybody else.

:::
::: You can use gardeners lime to make mortar.
::: They are both the same basic compound, except for gardens it has
::: been slaked and then dried, builders (who still use it) slake
::: their own, IE: drop it into a dustbin full of cold water, wait
::: until it stops boiling, then use as normal...slaked means it has
::: been added to water to take the fire out of it, after this
::: process it can be dried and doesn't need to be slaked again
::: before use, this is what you buy as gardeners lime.
::: If you find a plasterer and ask him to save all the old plaster
::: rmoved from old houses (not cement) it is a mixture of sand and
::: lime (and horsehair)...it breaks up the soil nicely and raises
::: the alkalinity too.
::
:: Nowadays indoor plaster is more likely to be based on calcium
:: sulphate (gypsum) rather than calcium hydroxide or calcium
:: carbonate.
::
:: Franz

Yes but this is unlikely to be replaced soon, if you ask a plasterer
to save
any sand/lime chippings you will soon have a few CWT for the
garden...it
melts if left in water for long enough...the odd bit of gypsum won't
do the
garden any harm if it's mixed in with the older stuff.

No, gypsum will not harm the garden, except that if you think "liming"
with gypsum will affect the pH substantially, you are mistaken.

Any junk which you may get from the plaster removed in a renovating
job is likely to be gypsum based unless the plaster is more than kalf
a century old.

Franz

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 15:52:33 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in
message k...
The message
from contains these words:

And it won't decompose the bodies........

..... as well as an acid bath does.

..or a urg wormery.

My wormery is an unmitigated disaster.
After six weeks they are still struggling with eating the original
four days worth of vegetable waste from the kitchen.

Just as my wife forecast :-)

Please congratulate her on the accuracy of her forecast and wish her a
hapy Christmas.

Franz

"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
...
wrote:
On Sun, 12 Dec 2004 15:52:33 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in
message k...
The message
from contains these words:

And it won't decompose the bodies........

..... as well as an acid bath does.

..or a urg wormery.

My wormery is an unmitigated disaster.
After six weeks they are still struggling with eating the
original
four days worth of vegetable waste from the kitchen.

Just as my wife forecast :-)

Absolutely. With the supreme confidence of one who's never even
bothered to try it, I say a wormery's pointless.

Yes, indeed.
If there is a wormery fancier in the audience, now is the time to
speak up in defence of worm compost.

What some people
here might, perhaps, call a "fad". Or "snake oil". Or commercial
exploitation of those with spare money jingling about.

Yes,m indeed.

(Talking of which, in Tesco this afternoon I found an unusual bit of
lost property: a ten-bob note! I couldn't have been more surprised
if
it had been a doubloon.)

Hey, if it is in good condition, it will be worth something, but
probably not as much as a ten pound note.

Franz

Franz Heymann wrote:
"Mike Lyle" wrote
[...]
(Talking of which, in Tesco this afternoon I found an unusual bit
of
lost property: a ten-bob note! I couldn't have been more surprised
if
it had been a doubloon.)

Hey, if it is in good condition, it will be worth something, but
probably not as much as a ten pound note.

Franz, that's a shockingly unworthy thought. I, of course, handed it
in to a bemused checkout kid, explaining carefully what it was; she
in turn passed it one slightly older rung up the supermercantile
power-ladder, while I left the premises.

Interestingly, the Bank of England note in question had had one end
cut off: I surmise that somebody had rather naively been trying to
prove that a nine-bob note wasn't as queer as people thought.

Mike (working hard on the clockwork orange and chocolate fireguard
concepts to prove I may not be so daft after all).

On 12/12/04 22:37, in article , "Mike Lyle"
wrote:

Sacha wrote:
snip
Wasn't there some association with the use of lime and an infamous
murderer - Crippen, perhaps? Years ago, I remember reading a
Dornford Yates novel in which a murderer used slaked lime instead
of
quicklime and thus preserved the body he had hoped to destroy,
which
was buried in a pit in a barn, IIRC. I think. ;-)

Good Heavens above! Somebody as young as you who's read Dornford
Yates! I ought to rush round and do a piece for the Sunday Telegraph!

As *young* as me?! I'm very flattered, Mike but on 11 January, I shall be
59! And besides, my mother had the entire collection at one time and I
read the lot and now have some of my own. Berry & Co. is still one of the
funniest books I've ever known.
snip
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds to email me)

first...growmore...has a clay base so is not ph neutral, second...all soils under cultivation tend progressively toward acidity...its due to the way plants' roots uptake nutrients...so a handful of garden lime per square yard once every 3 years applied in late autumn and again in midwinter keeps the ph balance.

if i had a peice of ground overhung by a Pine i'd be looking to grow acid loving plants below.

Franz Heymann wrote:
:: "Phil L" wrote in message
:: .uk...
::: Franz Heymann wrote:
::
:: You edited wrongly. I did not write any of the stuff which has
:: three colons.
:: My meagre contribution was only the bit low down with 2 colons.
:: Why do you use colons for attribution marks? They are difficult to
:: see. Have a shot at using "" like everybody else.
::

I don't like them and it was obvious that this next part was from my
keyboard.

::::::
:::::: You can use gardeners lime to make mortar.
:::::: They are both the same basic compound, except for gardens it
:::::: has been slaked and then dried, builders (who still use it)
:::::: slake their own, IE: drop it into a dustbin full of cold
:::::: water, wait until it stops boiling, then use as
:::::: normal...slaked means it has been added to water to take the
:::::: fire out of it, after this process it can be dried and doesn't
:::::: need to be slaked again before use, this is what you buy as
:::::: gardeners lime.
:::::: If you find a plasterer and ask him to save all the old plaster
:::::: rmoved from old houses (not cement) it is a mixture of sand and
:::::: lime (and horsehair)...it breaks up the soil nicely and raises
:::::: the alkalinity too.
:::::
::::: Nowadays indoor plaster is more likely to be based on calcium
::::: sulphate (gypsum) rather than calcium hydroxide or calcium
::::: carbonate.
:::::
::::: Franz
:::
::: Yes but this is unlikely to be replaced soon, if you ask a
::: plasterer to save any sand/lime chippings you will soon have a
::: few CWT for the garden...it melts if left in water for long
::: enough...the odd bit of gypsum won't do the garden any harm if
::: it's mixed in with the older stuff.
::
:: No, gypsum will not harm the garden, except that if you think
:: "liming" with gypsum will affect the pH substantially, you are
:: mistaken.
::
:: Any junk which you may get from the plaster removed in a renovating
:: job is likely to be gypsum based unless the plaster is more than
:: kalf a century old.
::
:: Franz

In which case it's not likely to be removed!...*all* plasterers know the
difference between gypsum plasters and sand/lime and would probably be happy
to get rid of it for free.

"Phil L" wrote in message
.uk...
Franz Heymann wrote:
:: "Phil L" wrote in message
:: .uk...
::: Franz Heymann wrote:
::
:: You edited wrongly. I did not write any of the stuff which has
:: three colons.
:: My meagre contribution was only the bit low down with 2 colons.
:: Why do you use colons for attribution marks? They are difficult
to
:: see. Have a shot at using "" like everybody else.
::

I don't like them and it was obvious that this next part was from my
keyboard.

It is a pity that you feel it necessary to inflict your idiosyncracy
on the whole of urg.
Many urglers have worse eyesight than you and find the colons
difficult to count.

[snip]

Franz

On 14/12/04 11:22, in article ,
" wrote:

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 03:21:28 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
wrote:


"Phil L" wrote in message
.uk...
Franz Heymann wrote:
:: "Phil L" wrote in message
:: .uk...
::: Franz Heymann wrote:
::
:: You edited wrongly. I did not write any of the stuff which has
:: three colons.
:: My meagre contribution was only the bit low down with 2 colons.
:: Why do you use colons for attribution marks? They are difficult
to
:: see. Have a shot at using "" like everybody else.
::

I don't like them and it was obvious that this next part was from my
keyboard.

It is a pity that you feel it necessary to inflict your idiosyncracy
on the whole of urg.
Many urglers have worse eyesight than you and find the colons
difficult to count.

I tend to ignore posts like that, mainly because I have difficulty
following the attributions too.

I agree. It's an option open to everyone, of course and certainly one I
intend to exercise!
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds to email me)

Sacha wrote:
:: On 14/12/04 11:22, in article
:: , "
:: wrote:
::
::: On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 03:21:28 +0000 (UTC), "Franz Heymann"
::: wrote:
:::
::::
:::: "Phil L" wrote in message
:::: .uk...
::::: Franz Heymann wrote:
::::::: "Phil L" wrote in message
::::::: .uk...
:::::::: Franz Heymann wrote:
:::::::
::::::: You edited wrongly. I did not write any of the stuff which
::::::: has three colons.
::::::: My meagre contribution was only the bit low down with 2
::::::: colons. Why do you use colons for attribution marks? They
::::::: are difficult to see. Have a shot at using "" like
::::::: everybody else.
:::::::
:::::
::::: I don't like them and it was obvious that this next part was
::::: from my keyboard.
::::
:::: It is a pity that you feel it necessary to inflict your
:::: idiosyncracy on the whole of urg.
:::: Many urglers have worse eyesight than you and find the colons
:::: difficult to count.
:::
::: I tend to ignore posts like that, mainly because I have difficulty
::: following the attributions too.
::
:: I agree. It's an option open to everyone, of course and certainly
:: one I intend to exercise!

I see, so if the indents are thusly:







you can follow the thread, but colons
:::
:::
:::
make it impossible?

Yopu should try using OEQuotefix which puts quotes from different people in
different colours...EG, this thread when read by me using OEQ has my
comments in blue, Franz's in red, Martin's in green and Sacha's in black,
also at the top of the thread where it says Phil wrote, Franz wrote, Martin
wrote etc, these names are in colours which correspond with the comments
('Franz wrote' is in a red font, 'Martin wrote' is in a green font etc)
Of course you can only use quotefix if you are using Outook Express...it
also strips signatures from replies and puts the cursor at the bottom
instead of the top.

Phil L wrote:
::
:::::
:::::my OE wont recognise as I use :::::
::::
::::
:::
:::
:: you can follow the thread, but colons
:::::
:::::
:::::
:: make it impossible?
::
:: Yopu should try using OEQuotefix which puts quotes from different
:: people in different colours...EG, this thread when read by me
:: using OEQ has my comments in blue, Franz's in red, Martin's in
:: green and Sacha's in black, also at the top of the thread where it
:: says Phil wrote, Franz wrote, Martin wrote etc, these names are in
:: colours which correspond with the comments ('Franz wrote' is in a
:: red font, 'Martin wrote' is in a green font etc)
:: Of course you can only use quotefix if you are using Outook
:: Express...it also strips signatures from replies and puts the
:: cursor at the bottom instead of the top.