Growing Thistels from seeds
 

I have some seeds from globe thistles and a few others and was
wondering when i need to get them under way, what type of soil and
temperatures.
anyone know?

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

In message
HaaRoy wrote:

I have some seeds from globe thistles and a few others and was
wondering when i need to get them under way, what type of soil and
temperatures.
anyone know?

My thistles and teasle seem to prefer to grow where they decide to self
seed and not where I plant them and fuss over them. However I did sow
originals into open ground. My soil is quite poor and sandy. It is
both anoying and rewarding to grow plants that seem to thrive when left
to their own devices. So get the first ones going and then
leave them alone. Foxgloves I find are another good self seeder
--
Derek Banks


Read the "MORNING STAR" daily newspaper for PEACE and SOCIALISM

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

On Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:27:05 +0000, HaaRoy wrote:

I have some seeds from globe thistles and a few others and was
wondering when i need to get them under way, what type of soil and
temperatures.
anyone know?

I won't hit it with you right away but I have, at the bottom of this
message, given you a list of 37 plants which have the word "thistle"
in their common name.

Not only that, although most of them are from the family Compositae, a
couple of them are even from different families (Labiatae and
Chenopodiaceae).

Does it make a difference?

Well you are talking to a newbie seed sower here who has just taken
delivery of a clutch of packets from Chiltern Seeds.

A select few of these packets had very specific instructions stuck to
them. It seems that the seeds of certain plants will not germinate
unless their biological processes are activated with moisture and
moderate warmth and then they are banished into near freezing
temperatures for a goodly while. This period of cold is apparently
essential to their metabolism and it is only after they have endured
this that they can gird their loins for their final Oom Pah Pah in
conditions resembling the coming of Spring with its warmth.

Looking it up, I can deduce that Echinops ritro (Globe thistle - the
one you identified) is one such plant and should be sown in a cold
frame. Whether or not it first of all needs a wake up call with the
damp and not quite so cold (Lets pretend it's Autumn?) I have no idea.

I have a little text file which I transcribed from the label on
Chilterns seeds which I have dubbed "Chiltern's cold seeds"

I think if you want to start them off immediately I would recommend
you follow it.

Chiltern cold seeds:

1. 64 - 72 F 2/4 wks
17 - 22 C


2. 25 - 40 F 4/6 wks
-4 - 4 C


3. Return to to more than
65 F
19 C

Indeed, if the seeds don't sprout the first season you are strongly
advised to leave them to experience the full cycle of temperature
environments and expect them to emerge the following year.

To avoid stress for myself and thereby probably the plants too, each
of my 3.5" pots is enclosed in its little greenhouse consisting of a
clear polythene sandwich bag tied tight closed with a wire tie (often
supplied with the bags) but leaving a fair amount of air inside the
bubble. In this way I can be sure that they will never (or scarcely
ever) need watering. However, because this is an ideal environment
for fungii and other pathogens I also intend giving them a treatment
of Cheshunts Compound as recommended.

Which medium to use seems controversial. Chiltern seeds say that the
success rate with Levington's Peat based compost far exceeds John
Innes loam based. Maybe the objection to Levington's is based on
environmental principles (the ransacking of peat bogs).

My kitchen table seems to have been transformed to a potting bench!

As for the "few other thistles" - well maybe one of them is the Scotch
Thistle (Onopordum acanthium) (which, in cultivation, I would regard
as more exotic than the Echinops). It seems that can be sown in Spring
and do without the near freeze.

Please remember that I said I'm a newbie and you should take the
advice of any of the seasoned gardeners who respond to you if their
advice is contrary to that I have given you.

Respect

Hussein - the list follows!

Carduus crispus Welted thistle
Carduus nutans Musk thistle
Carlina acaulis Stemless carline thistle
Carlina vulgaris Carline thistle
Carthamnus lanatus Distaff thistle
Centaurea calcitrapa Common star thistle
Centaurea iberica Iberian star thistle
Centaurea melitensis Maltese star thistle
Centaurea solstitialis St. Barnaby's/Yellow Star thistle
Cicerbita alpina Blue sow thistle
Cirsium acaulon Stemless thistle
Cirsium arvense Creeping thistle
Cirsium brevistylum Indian thistle
Cirsium eatoni Eaton's thistle
Cirsium edule Edible thistle
Cirsium eriophorum Wooly thistle
Cirsium hookerianum White thistle
Cirsium occidentale Cobwebby thistle
Cirsium ochrocentrum Yellow spined thistle
Cirsium oleraceum Cabbage thistle
Cirsium pallidum Pale thistle
Cirsium palustre Marsh thistle
Cirsium tuberosum Tuberous thistle
Cirsium undulatum Wavy-leaved thistle
Cirsium vulgare Common thistle
Cnicus benedictus Blessed thistle
Echinops ritro Globe thistle
Onopordum acanthium Scotch thistle
Onopordum illyricum Cotton thistle
Salsola kali ruthenica Prickly Russian thistle
Salvia carduacea Thistle sage
Scolymus maculatus Spotted golden thistle
Silybum marianum Milk thistle
Sonchus arvensis Field milk thistle
Sonchus asper Prickly sow thistle
Sonchus oleraceus Sow thistle

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

In article , Hussein M.
writes
Hussein - the list follows!

That's a fascinating list of thistles Hussein and it illustrates how
much variation occurs under common or popular name descriptions of
plants. RHS Plantfinder CD 2000/01 gives an even wider range of plants
with 'thistle' in their name including six varieties of Globe Thistle,
most of which are listed as echinops.

I have always thought of Globe Artichokes, Cynara scolymus and Cardoon,
Cynara cardunculus as edible relatives of the common garden thistle,
Cirsium vulgare. They are in the compositae family, but none of the five
varieties of Cynara listed in Plantfinder have 'thistle' in their name.
What all of those plants share is vigour and hardiness, welcome enough
in cropping, but less so in decorative gardening.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

In article , Alan Gould
writes
I have always thought of Globe Artichokes, Cynara scolymus and Cardoon,
Cynara cardunculus as edible relatives of the common garden thistle,
Cirsium vulgare. They are in the compositae family, but none of the five
varieties of Cynara listed in Plantfinder have 'thistle' in their name.
What all of those plants share is vigour and hardiness, welcome enough
in cropping, but less so in decorative gardening.

Most of the plants called thistles belong to a sub-group classified as
Cardueae, which also includes Cardoons, Cornflowers, Knapweeds, et alia.
Sow-thistles are an exception; they are related to Dandelions, Lettuces,
Hawkweeds et al (Lactuceae).
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

In article , Stewart Robert Hinsley
writes
Most of the plants called thistles belong to a sub-group classified as
Cardueae, which also includes Cardoons, Cornflowers, Knapweeds, et alia.
Sow-thistles are an exception; they are related to Dandelions, Lettuces,
Hawkweeds et al (Lactuceae).

Thanks Stewart. The plot re. plant relationship thickens here a bit, but
all of those you mention are in the Compositae family, though in
different genera and species of that group. Some of them are also
mentioned as species or sub-species within the Asteraceae family, and
use the synonym Lactuca for differentiation. Plantfinder gives twenty
varieties of Sow-thistle, with the common Sow-thistle listed as Sonchus
oleraceus.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

On Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:27:05 +0000, HaaRoy wrote:



i managed to find globe thistels in a propogation book and it just
says grow them in situ april to june.

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

On Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:01:30 +0000, Alan Gould
wrote:

Most of the plants called thistles belong to a sub-group classified as
Cardueae, which also includes Cardoons, Cornflowers, Knapweeds, et alia.
Sow-thistles are an exception; they are related to Dandelions, Lettuces,
Hawkweeds et al (Lactuceae).

Thanks Stewart. The plot re. plant relationship thickens here a bit, but
all of those you mention are in the Compositae family, though in
different genera and species of that group. Some of them are also
mentioned as species or sub-species within the Asteraceae family, and
use the synonym Lactuca for differentiation. Plantfinder gives twenty
varieties of Sow-thistle, with the common Sow-thistle listed as Sonchus
oleraceus.

Phew. Managed to include a word from the subject line in the quote
above.

Anyway. I just wanted to add to these observations concerning
nomenclature that there may well be a _really_ grand re-ordering of
this when they start classifying according to DNA and individual
genes. It's already begun to happen hasn't it?

Rspct

Hussein

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

On Fri, 29 Nov 2002 20:20:57 +0000, HaaRoy wrote:

On Wed, 27 Nov 2002 18:27:05 +0000, HaaRoy wrote:



i managed to find globe thistels in a propogation book and it just
says grow them in situ april to june.

In that case I suppose you would have to be prepared to wait until the
next year for the first flower. I also suppose that the best time to
sow any seed in situ is that time when the plant seeded to produce the
seeds.

Rspct

Hussein

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

In article , Hussein M.
writes

Anyway. I just wanted to add to these observations concerning
nomenclature that there may well be a _really_ grand re-ordering of
this when they start classifying according to DNA and individual
genes. It's already begun to happen hasn't it?


Yes, but Asteraceae/Compositae seems to be one of the more robust bits
of the classification (excepting the past dismemberment of
Chyrsanthemum). For an overview see

URL:http://www.mobot.org/MOBOT/Research/...ers/asteralesw
eb.htm#Asteraceae

Elsewhere, not only has Liliaceae been chopped into lots of little
pieces, as previously proposed, but it's spread across two orders (into
one of which Orchidaceae is sunk).

Or for my summary on Malvaceae, see

http://www.meden.demon.co.uk/Malvace.../overview.html
http://www.meden.demon.co.uk/Malvace...ttneriina.html
http://www.meden.demon.co.uk/Malvace...alvatheca.html

tho' I haven't incorporated recent data on Hibiscus, Pavonia, etc.

I stumbled across a suggestion that Veronica will swallow Hebe and
Parahebe yesterday evening.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

In article , Hussein M.
writes

Anyway. I just wanted to add to these observations concerning
nomenclature that there may well be a _really_ grand re-ordering of
this when they start classifying according to DNA and individual
genes. It's already begun to happen hasn't it?

That sounds a pretty formidable task, but if such is happening I would
hope that food plants and natural or wild plants are given equal
attention to floral and exotic. The Cruciferae family, particularly the
brassicaceae are long overdue for revision and re-classification IMHO.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

In article , Alan Gould
writes
In article , Hussein M.
writes

Anyway. I just wanted to add to these observations concerning
nomenclature that there may well be a _really_ grand re-ordering of
this when they start classifying according to DNA and individual
genes. It's already begun to happen hasn't it?

That sounds a pretty formidable task, but if such is happening I would
hope that food plants and natural or wild plants are given equal
attention to floral and exotic.

It is precisely the 'natural or wild plants' which are the subject of
the classification. The aim, as ever in taxonomy, is to get closer and
closer to the natural evolution of plants

The Cruciferae family, particularly the
brassicaceae are long overdue for revision and re-classification IMHO.

What particular aspects worry you?

--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/garden/

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

In article , Alan Gould
writes
That sounds a pretty formidable task, but if such is happening I would
hope that food plants and natural or wild plants are given equal
attention to floral and exotic. The Cruciferae family, particularly the
brassicaceae are long overdue for revision and re-classification IMHO.

Extensive sequencing of individual species mostly applies to crop plants
(e.g. rice, cotton), but also to thale cress (Arabidopsis thaliana)
which is used as a model plant in the study of plant developmental
biology.

Beyond that there is a bias towards the wild relatives of crop plants
(e.g. plenty of sequences of wild cottons), and to recently described
species (presumably because the researchers have material to hand). In
several groups well known ornamentals are missing from the set of
species for which sequences are published (e.g. H. syriacus and H.
mutabilis in Hibiscus). Take a look at EMBL/DDBJ or Genbank.

PS: Cruciferae and Brassicaceae are one and the same, with
Capparaceae/Capparidaceae sunk therein in recent classifications.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley
http://www.meden.demon.co.uk/Malvace...directory.html

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

In article , Alan Gould
writes
Thanks Stewart. The plot re. plant relationship thickens here a bit, but
all of those you mention are in the Compositae family, though in
different genera and species of that group. Some of them are also
mentioned as species or sub-species within the Asteraceae family, and
use the synonym Lactuca for differentiation. Plantfinder gives twenty
varieties of Sow-thistle, with the common Sow-thistle listed as Sonchus
oleraceus.

Cardueae and Lactuceae (or Cichorieae) are subdivisions of Compositae; I
took that as understood. Asteraceae and Compositae are the same.

[The current rules are that family names are derived from generic names,
but some old family names are grandfathered in

Leguminosae = Fabaceae
Guttiferae = Hypericaceae
Graminales = Poaceae
Labiatae = Lamiaceae
Compositae = Asteraceae
Cruciferae = Brassicaceae
Umbelliferae = Apiaceae

and any more I've forgotten.]
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

The message
from Hussein M. contains these words:

I also suppose that the best time to
sow any seed in situ is that time when the plant seeded to produce the
seeds.

Well...no, it isn't, especially in areas which have cold or wet
winters. Autumn-sown open ground seeds usually have far lower
germination and poorer survival rates than the same seeds properly
stored, then planted in the same place in Spring. Seeds in open ground
do better when soil is warming up not cooling down, and when daylength
is lengthening not shortening.

Janet.

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

In article , Kay Easton
writes
The Cruciferae family, particularly the
brassicaceae are long overdue for revision and re-classification IMHO.

What particular aspects worry you?

Quite a few. You might remember more than one discussion in urg about
'collards' and others about correct naming of broccoli/calabrese. New
gardeners are often caught out by rooted plants being brassicas and
Oriental mustards are becoming a minefield of their own.

Normally recreational gardeners do not concern themselves over much
about correct botanical naming. When vegetables are being grown in a
rotational system though, plant families, especially brassicas can be
very important in maintaining soil and plant health.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

In article , Alan Gould
writes
In article , Kay Easton
writes
The Cruciferae family, particularly the
brassicaceae are long overdue for revision and re-classification IMHO.

What particular aspects worry you?

Quite a few. You might remember more than one discussion in urg about
'collards'

But wasn't that more about what plants popular names applied to? - a
well known source of confusion, and nothing to do with taxonomy as such

and others about correct naming of broccoli/calabrese. New
gardeners are often caught out by rooted plants being brassicas and
Oriental mustards are becoming a minefield of their own.

Are you saying that there are plants within the brassicas which should
not be? Or conversely, that plants not at present considered to be
brassicas which you believe to be brassicas? Or are you making a plea
for common names to be more nearly aligned with botanical
classification?


--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/garden/

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

In article , Kay Easton
writes
Quite a few. You might remember more than one discussion in urg about
'collards'

But wasn't that more about what plants popular names applied to? - a
well known source of confusion, and nothing to do with taxonomy as such
Do you have the Latin name for collards?

Are you saying that there are plants within the brassicas which should
not be? Or conversely, that plants not at present considered to be
brassicas which you believe to be brassicas? Or are you making a plea
for common names to be more nearly aligned with botanical
classification?
Any new classification should hopefully clarify all of those points.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

In article , Alan Gould
writes
In article , Kay Easton
writes
Quite a few. You might remember more than one discussion in urg about
'collards'

But wasn't that more about what plants popular names applied to? - a
well known source of confusion, and nothing to do with taxonomy as such
Do you have the Latin name for collards?

Brassica oleracea (var) acephala

Are you saying that there are plants within the brassicas which should
not be? Or conversely, that plants not at present considered to be
brassicas which you believe to be brassicas? Or are you making a plea
for common names to be more nearly aligned with botanical
classification?
Any new classification should hopefully clarify all of those points.

The bounds of genera in Brassicaceae is considered a problem, Brassica
amongst them, but I'm not aware of any doubts about the placement of B.
oleracea, B. napus and their amphiploid hybrid B. rapa.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

In article , Alan Gould
writes
In article , Kay Easton
writes
Quite a few. You might remember more than one discussion in urg about
'collards'

But wasn't that more about what plants popular names applied to? - a
well known source of confusion, and nothing to do with taxonomy as such
Do you have the Latin name for collards?

I don't know which plant you mean by collards, any more than I know
which plant you would mean by 'gillyflower'. No amount of looking at DNA
and revisiting current classification is going to clear up the common
names of plants, which are applied without great regard to their
underlying relationships - lesser and greater celandine, for example!

Are you saying that there are plants within the brassicas which should
not be? Or conversely, that plants not at present considered to be
brassicas which you believe to be brassicas? Or are you making a plea
for common names to be more nearly aligned with botanical
classification?
Any new classification should hopefully clarify all of those points.

I think it should throw more light on how accurately existing
classifications mirror evolutionary history, but I can't see that it can
help in any way with common names.

But what I was asking you is are you aware of any greater taxonomic
confusion among the brassicas than among other plants (other, of course,
than the problem of common names which have never attempted to mirror
taxonomy and which may be used by different parts of the country to
refer to different plants)


--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/garden/

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

In article , Stewart Robert Hinsley
writes
Yes, but Asteraceae/Compositae seems to be one of the more robust bits
of the classification (excepting the past dismemberment of
Chyrsanthemum). For an overview see

URL:http://www.mobot.org/MOBOT/Research/...ers/asteralesw
eb.htm#Asteraceae

?? Do you mean the section which states:

ASTERACEAE Martynov*//COMPOSITAE Giseke Back to Asterales

Herbs to trees or vines; sesquiterpene lactones, terpenoid essential
oils, various alkaloids, polyacetylenes [cyclic, aromatic, with vinyl
end groups] +, tanniniferous, iridoids 0; cork superficial (deep
seated); (cortical or medullary vascular bundles +); cambium storied or
not; (vessel elements with scalariform or reticulate perforations);
nodes also 5:5; leaves also opposite, often conduplicate or revolute,
margins various; inflorescence capitulate, involucrate, ebracteate;
flowers poly- or variously monosymmetric, K reduced, C split-
monosymmetric, bilabiate, or tubular (deeply lobed), anthers connate
(free), with apical and basal [calcarate] appendages, caudate, tapetum
amoeboid, ovule basal, embryo sac with persistent multinucleate
antipodal cells; (K deciduous); (testa not vascularized), exotestal
cells thickened, palisade or flattened, or undistinguished; endosperm
(nuclear), scanty to 0; protein bodies in nuclei.

For lay gardeners, a little clarification would be helpful.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

In article , Kay Easton
writes
But what I was asking you is are you aware of any greater taxonomic
confusion among the brassicas than among other plants (other, of course,
than the problem of common names which have never attempted to mirror
taxonomy and which may be used by different parts of the country to
refer to different plants)

They also vary from country to country. The point I have already made is
that whatever the common name of a plant may be, or for that matter
whatever its taxonomic name is, a gardener needs to know which plant
family it belongs to in order to carry out correct crop rotations.

A new system of classification could take the opportunity of making that
a lot more clear than it presently is. Brassicas are more relevant in
that respect because they collectively tend to take the highest
proportion of area in an average vegetable plot, and they have the
greatest number of varieties within their family compared to other
vegetables. They are also susceptible to club root if grown too often in
the same place or too intensively, and that horrible disease can take up
to nine years to eradicate.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

On Sat, 30 Nov 2002 12:17:41 GMT, Janet Baraclough
wrote:

The message
from Hussein M. contains these words:

I also suppose that the best time to
sow any seed in situ is that time when the plant seeded to produce the
seeds.

Well...no, it isn't, especially in areas which have cold or wet
winters. Autumn-sown open ground seeds usually have far lower
germination and poorer survival rates than the same seeds properly
stored, then planted in the same place in Spring. Seeds in open ground
do better when soil is warming up not cooling down, and when daylength
is lengthening not shortening.

Aha. Thanks for that Janet, all my hardy perennials seeds are indoors
... and sown just now. But it's a cold frame arrangements.

I'm sure I have made, or am about to make, a big boo boo somewhere
down the line.


Janet.

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

In article , Alan Gould
writes
In article , Kay Easton
writes
But what I was asking you is are you aware of any greater taxonomic
confusion among the brassicas than among other plants (other, of course,
than the problem of common names which have never attempted to mirror
taxonomy and which may be used by different parts of the country to
refer to different plants)

They also vary from country to country. The point I have already made is
that whatever the common name of a plant may be, or for that matter
whatever its taxonomic name is, a gardener needs to know which plant
family it belongs to in order to carry out correct crop rotations.

But there are two points there - firstly the same common name may be
applied to plants of different families - like gillyflower, for example

Secondly, although in many cases closely related plants share similar
growth preferences this may not always be true, where, for example, they
have come to occupy different habitats, and secondly, similarity of
growth preference does not imply close relationship. So removal of plant
from a particular family would not mean that you had to alter its
position in crop rotations - unless, of course, generations of gardeners
had got it wrong!


--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/garden/

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

In article , Kay Easton
writes
But there are two points there - firstly the same common name may be
applied to plants of different families - like gillyflower, for example

Secondly, although in many cases closely related plants share similar
growth preferences this may not always be true, where, for example, they
have come to occupy different habitats, and secondly, similarity of
growth preference does not imply close relationship. So removal of plant
from a particular family would not mean that you had to alter its
position in crop rotations - unless, of course, generations of gardeners
had got it wrong!

Yes, these are good points which hopefully would be considered by those
undertaking the task of re-classification.
--
Alan & Joan Gould - North Lincs.

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

In article , Alan Gould
writes
Secondly, although in many cases closely related plants share similar
growth preferences this may not always be true, where, for example, they
have come to occupy different habitats, and secondly, similarity of
growth preference does not imply close relationship. So removal of plant
from a particular family would not mean that you had to alter its
position in crop rotations - unless, of course, generations of gardeners
had got it wrong!

Yes, these are good points which hopefully would be considered by those
undertaking the task of re-classification.

Any formal reclassification that takes place in the light of DNA
evidence will be on the basis of genealogy, so your hope would appear to
be forlorn. And with the current state of the art DNA sequencing can
only shed light on genealogy, so your hope is doubly so.
--
Stewart Robert Hinsley

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

On Sat, 30 Nov 2002 20:13:38 +0000, Hussein M.
wrote:

On Sat, 30 Nov 2002 12:17:41 GMT, Janet Baraclough
wrote:

The message
from Hussein M. contains these words:

I also suppose that the best time to sow any seed in situ
is that time when the plant seeded to produce the seeds.

Well...no, it isn't, especially in areas which have cold or wet
winters. Autumn-sown open ground seeds usually have far lower
germination and poorer survival rates than the same seeds properly
stored, then planted in the same place in Spring. Seeds in open ground
do better when soil is warming up not cooling down, and when daylength
is lengthening not shortening.

Aha. Thanks for that Janet, all my hardy perennials seeds are indoors
.. and sown just now. But it's a cold frame arrangements.

I'm sure I have made, or am about to make, a big boo boo somewhere
down the line.

You'll learn after a while. Rome wasn't built in a day and
developing that intuitive sense of what works and what doesn't
(aka a green thumb), as regards seed sowing or any other aspect
of avocational horticulture, takes time -- and any number of
humiliatingly abject failures.

Generally speaking, I find that seeds of composites (Asteraceae)
and labiates (Lamiaceae) do better if held back until normal
planting out time in the spring, or maybe a few weeks earlier.
They seem to require warmth for germination, and if sown now,
tend to simply rot away during the long, dark, damp, chilly
winter. [Note that this is not a Rule engraved on a stone tablet;
rather it is simply what I have experienced under my conditions
and preferred practices. YMMV etc.]

On the other hand, cyclamen should be sown as you can. If you
delay, their germination may be delayed a full year, as most
species tend to germinate at the same season as mature plants
leaf out.

On the whole, I prefer the approach of letting the seed germinate
when it will rather than *making* it germinate when I want it to.
This helps avoid the difficulty of trying to over-winter young
seedlings.

You'll also learn tricks like topdressing seed pots with fine
gravel, sprinkling fine seed on top of the top dressing and
drawing it down via capillary action by standing the pot up to
its neck in water, and so on.

A very skilled seed sower here swears by a drench of a good
fungicide such as captan. as making an enormous difference
between success and failure with many seeds.

As for your failures at sowing hardy perennials, dump the
failures out where any chance later germinations can be rescued.
There is one garden on the mountain slope that overlooks
Vancouver, BC, where for years the owners have dumped out
"failed" seed pots on the grassy verge of the street. The most
astonishing assortment of plants has come up as a result.

Just don't tell anyone what failed. Emphasize the successes.

For the record I have a germination success rate somewhere around
60-75% pot-wise; and often if *anything* comes up in a pot, I
o,ften get about 80% germination, seedwise. Of course, there are
wide variations from year to year and pot to pot.


--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

In article , Rodger Whitlock
writes


On the other hand, cyclamen should be sown as you can. If you
delay, their germination may be delayed a full year, as most
species tend to germinate at the same season as mature plants
leaf out.

Primroses, cowslips and other primulas ditto, as you might expect.

On the whole, I prefer the approach of letting the seed germinate
when it will rather than *making* it germinate when I want it to.
This helps avoid the difficulty of trying to over-winter young
seedlings.

It's also less bother and leaves your fridge empty for olives, feta
cheese and other things.


For the record I have a germination success rate somewhere around
60-75% pot-wise; and often if *anything* comes up in a pot, I
o,ften get about 80% germination, seedwise. Of course, there are
wide variations from year to year and pot to pot.

Same here - either everything in the pot comes up or nothing does.

And this also applies in the second year - stick the failed pot under
the staging, with just a plastic bag over it so you don't have to water
it, forget it completely, and next spring, after a good cold spell, the
seedlings may have come up like mustard and cress. Or they may not.



--
Kay Easton

Edward's earthworm page:
http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/garden/

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

On Sun, 01 Dec 2002 12:52:55 GMT,
(Rodger Whitlock) wrote:

You'll learn after a while. Rome wasn't built in a day and
developing that intuitive sense of what works and what doesn't
(aka a green thumb), as regards seed sowing or any other aspect
of avocational horticulture, takes time -- and any number of
humiliatingly abject failures.

and more on sprouting seeds ...

Thanks Roger for your encouragement - no really .....

I wasn't expecting it all to be a cake walk and you actually (and
kindly) provided one or two tips for me.

Regards

Hussein

Growing Thistels from seeds
 

On Sun, 01 Dec 2002 15:19:52 +0000, Hussein M.
wrote:

Thanks Roger for your encouragement - no really .....

That's the best response of all.

Since you are interested in hardy perennials, I suggest you
investigate the seedlists of the RHS, the Hardy Plant Society,
the Alpine Garden Society, and the Scottish Rock Garden Club.
There's probably someone in your neighbourhood with a copy of
each of these.

[You must join the relevant society to get seeds from them, btw.]

The HPS list is (or was when I was a member, ca. 1982-1994)
exceptionally rich in herbaceous perennials, including a wide
range of quite uncommon plants, and the seed packets were very
generously filled.

You might think the suggestion that you look into the AGS and
SRGC list misguided, but these lists contain all sorts of
interesting surprises in the way of perennials, by no means all
"tiny gems from the rocky heights".


--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada