anton wrote:
"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"Oxymel of Squill" writes:
very dangerous advice if the word of Brussels is to be believed.
The EU recently declared the teabag (a construction od leaves
and
paper) to be an 'animal product' and banned Cardiff Council from
adding them to its composting process
http://www.independence.org.uk/abc_n...hp?t=1&id=1169

Not at all. That is nonsense perpetrated by the Little
Englanders,
whose only skill appears to be in persuading the (admittedly
stupid)
UK population to believe their lies.

What precisely are you asserting is the lie? That teabags
contaminated by milk are classified as an animal product, and
cannot
be low-temperature composted?

No, the way that clarification was hidden from the casual reader.
This may or may not have been deliberate misrepresentation: I don't
know, so I won't call it a flat-out lie for now. The way it was said
that the EU banned Cardiff Council from doing something, when it was
the Council's own decision. A daft-sounding, and pretty nearly
unworkable, but actually reasonable, decision. I agree that it was
based on an EU rule, so I suppose you could call it an EU ban; but
these things can always be presented in either a neutral way, or one
loaded to one side or the other.


If you take a further look, and bother to find out about the
reasons
for the rule (which isn't what is said), you will find that it is
rooted in an attempt to get particularly unscientific and
deliberately negligent counties (like the UK) to avoid creating
another epidemic like the foot and mouth one.

More exactly, it would be countries with particularly unscientific
and
deliberately negligent governments (like the current UK one).

Not just the current one: all British Governments are like that.

The rule might be ridiculous, but the
fact that such rules are needed because we can't trust our own
government to look after our own interests is worse.

-and the smokescreen laid down by europhiliacs attempting to deny
that
kitchen refuse was banned from being composted would feature where
in
your weltanschauung?

No, it could be argued that the smokescreen is laid by Europhobes.
The OP, for example, was given the impression that tea-bags, as such,
were classified as an animal product: this impression is false.
That's a feature of my weltschmerz.

Mike.

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:14:27 +0100, wrote:

~On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:08:03 +0100, wrote:
~
~On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:48:48 +0000 (UTC), "anton"
wrote:
~
~
~"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...
~
~ In article ,
~ "Oxymel of Squill" writes:
~ | very dangerous advice if the word of Brussels is to be believed. The EU
~ | recently declared the teabag (a construction od leaves and paper) to be
~an
~ | 'animal product' and banned Cardiff Council from adding them to its
~ | composting process
~ | http://www.independence.org.uk/abc_n...hp?t=1&id=1169
~
~ Not at all. That is nonsense perpetrated by the Little Englanders,
~ whose only skill appears to be in persuading the (admittedly stupid)
~ UK population to believe their lies.
~
~What precisely are you asserting is the lie? That teabags contaminated by
~milk are classified as an animal product, and cannot be low-temperature
~composted?
~
~Tea bags are not mentioned in the legislation
~http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/s...20031482.htm#4
~
~The real problem is ...
~
~"The city’s problem is that the council does not possess a
~high-temperature composting plant, which the EU directive requires to
~ensure that any undesirable organisms are killed off. Indeed, there is
~no such plant anywhere in Wales."

This is actually rather more worrying. If the central composting plant
cannot get to high temperatures, how on earth are they going to
prevent the resulting compost spreading somebody's dumped Japanese
Knotweed or horsetail all over Wales???

Urk. South Welsh gardeners may be wise to avoid buying the resulting
compost!


--
jane

Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone,
you may still exist but you have ceased to live.
Mark Twain

Please remove onmaps from replies, thanks!

In article ,
jane wrote:

This is actually rather more worrying. If the central composting plant
cannot get to high temperatures, how on earth are they going to
prevent the resulting compost spreading somebody's dumped Japanese
Knotweed or horsetail all over Wales???

Urk. South Welsh gardeners may be wise to avoid buying the resulting
compost!

Well, they may be, but not for that reason. Such roots don't last
long even in a 'cold' composting process, because they have to either
grow or die - and there isn't enough light (and often not enough air)
to grow. Also, when they do sprout, the new growth is very susceptible
to attack by bacteria and fungi.

The danger comes from bacteria, fungi etc. with resistant spores, such
as tetanus or anthrax (neither currently a major problem in the UK),
and possibly things like white rot of alliums. I don't know which
plant pathogens have resistant spores, but it is fewer than most people
think.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "anton" contains these words:


-and the smokescreen laid down by europhiliacs attempting to deny that
kitchen refuse was banned from being composted would feature where in
your
weltanschauung?

UK kitchen refuse is not banned from composting
http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/...cs/kitchen.htm


From your source:
"This effectively means that compost produced from kitchen waste cannot be
spread onto land"
so while you can compost it, you cannot legally spread the compost onto
land' Bit pointless really, composting, isn't it, unless you 'spread it on
land'.

(and as I recall, the earlier claims that it was, stemmed from
careless reading of Defra's statement on composting of industrial
foodwaste.)

The legislation is not restricted to industrial foodwaste. Again from your
source:
"The amended Animal By-products Order ***will*** also exempt domestic
households from the need to be licensed by the State Veterinary Service to
compost catering/kitchen waste." [My emphasis added]

So the ******* have made illegal what nearly everyone in this ng is doing,
and since then have been trying to avoid admitting it. I'm even deeper in
the soup, because I have hens.

Happy composting,

--
Anton

wrote in message
news
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:47:49 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
wrote:

anton wrote:
"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"Oxymel of Squill" writes:
very dangerous advice if the word of Brussels is to be believed.
The EU recently declared the teabag (a construction od leaves
and
paper) to be an 'animal product' and banned Cardiff Council from
adding them to its composting process
http://www.independence.org.uk/abc_n...hp?t=1&id=1169

Not at all. That is nonsense perpetrated by the Little
Englanders,
whose only skill appears to be in persuading the (admittedly
stupid)
UK population to believe their lies.

What precisely are you asserting is the lie? That teabags
contaminated by milk are classified as an animal product, and
cannot
be low-temperature composted?

No, the way that clarification was hidden from the casual reader.
This may or may not have been deliberate misrepresentation: I don't
know, so I won't call it a flat-out lie for now. The way it was said
that the EU banned Cardiff Council from doing something, when it was
the Council's own decision. A daft-sounding, and pretty nearly
unworkable, but actually reasonable, decision. I agree that it was
based on an EU rule, so I suppose you could call it an EU ban; but
these things can always be presented in either a neutral way, or one
loaded to one side or the other.


If you take a further look, and bother to find out about the
reasons
for the rule (which isn't what is said), you will find that it is
rooted in an attempt to get particularly unscientific and
deliberately negligent counties (like the UK) to avoid creating
another epidemic like the foot and mouth one.

More exactly, it would be countries with particularly unscientific
and
deliberately negligent governments (like the current UK one).

Not just the current one: all British Governments are like that.

Yes.

/All/ Britsh govts deliberately negligent? Only one government has ever
allowed f & m to spread, avoiding calling the army in, because they wanted
to hold to their schedule for an early election.


The rule might be ridiculous, but the
fact that such rules are needed because we can't trust our own
government to look after our own interests is worse.

-and the smokescreen laid down by europhiliacs attempting to deny
that
kitchen refuse was banned from being composted would feature where
in
your weltanschauung?

What is banned is the production of unsterilised compost.


More or less true. What's actually banned is spreading it on land. So
millions of householders are breaking the law.

No, it could be argued that the smokescreen is laid by Europhobes.
The OP, for example, was given the impression that tea-bags, as such,
were classified as an animal product: this impression is false.
That's a feature of my weltschmerz.

I'm not with you.
'The reason, according to the EU's Animal By-Products Order 1999, is that
teabags, and indeed used coffee filters, could have come in contact with
contaminated milk'

Seems a pretty clear statement. Which word don't you like?

It's interesting the way that a google search for this sort of
disinformation/nonesense usually leads to a Rupert Murdoch
publication.

It's more interesting that pro-EU propaganda fails when the legislation
itself is actually unearthed.
--
Anton

anton wrote:
"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "anton" contains these words:


-and the smokescreen laid down by europhiliacs attempting to deny
that kitchen refuse was banned from being composted would feature
where in your weltanschauung?

UK kitchen refuse is not banned from composting
http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/...cs/kitchen.htm


From your source:
"This effectively means that compost produced from kitchen waste
cannot be spread onto land"
so while you can compost it, you cannot legally spread the compost
onto land' Bit pointless really, composting, isn't it, unless you
'spread it on land'.

(and as I recall, the earlier claims that it was, stemmed from
careless reading of Defra's statement on composting of
industrial
foodwaste.)

The legislation is not restricted to industrial foodwaste. Again
from your source:
"The amended Animal By-products Order ***will*** also exempt
domestic
households from the need to be licensed by the State Veterinary
Service to compost catering/kitchen waste." [My emphasis added]

So the ******* have made illegal what nearly everyone in this ng is
doing, and since then have been trying to avoid admitting it. I'm
even deeper in the soup, because I have hens.

Happy composting,

¿Que? I could have sworn that said domestic households ***will*** be
exempted! Must be getting old.

Mike.

anton wrote:
wrote in message
news
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:47:49 -0000, "Mike Lyle"
wrote:

anton wrote:
"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"Oxymel of Squill" writes:
very dangerous advice if the word of Brussels is to be
believed.
The EU recently declared the teabag (a construction od leaves
and
paper) to be an 'animal product' and banned Cardiff Council
from
adding them to its composting process
http://www.independence.org.uk/abc_n...hp?t=1&id=1169

Not at all. That is nonsense perpetrated by the Little
Englanders,
whose only skill appears to be in persuading the (admittedly
stupid) UK population to believe their lies.

What precisely are you asserting is the lie? That teabags
contaminated by milk are classified as an animal product, and
cannot
be low-temperature composted?

No, the way that clarification was hidden from the casual reader.
This may or may not have been deliberate misrepresentation: I
don't
know, so I won't call it a flat-out lie for now. The way it was
said
that the EU banned Cardiff Council from doing something, when it
was
the Council's own decision. A daft-sounding, and pretty nearly
unworkable, but actually reasonable, decision. I agree that it
was
based on an EU rule, so I suppose you could call it an EU ban;
but
these things can always be presented in either a neutral way, or
one
loaded to one side or the other.


If you take a further look, and bother to find out about the
reasons for the rule (which isn't what is said), you will find
that it is rooted in an attempt to get particularly
unscientific
and deliberately negligent counties (like the UK) to avoid
creating another epidemic like the foot and mouth one.

More exactly, it would be countries with particularly
unscientific
and deliberately negligent governments (like the current UK
one).

Not just the current one: all British Governments are like that.

Yes.

/All/ Britsh govts deliberately negligent? Only one government has
ever allowed f & m to spread, avoiding calling the army in, because
they wanted to hold to their schedule for an early election.

I said all Br Govts were particularly unscientific and deliberately
negligent. I didn't specify foot-and-mouth; but on that I think
they've all been both unscientific and gutless to the point of
something hard to distinguish from negligence.


The rule might be ridiculous, but the
fact that such rules are needed because we can't trust our own
government to look after our own interests is worse.

-and the smokescreen laid down by europhiliacs attempting to
deny
that kitchen refuse was banned from being composted would
feature
where in your weltanschauung?

What is banned is the production of unsterilised compost.


More or less true. What's actually banned is spreading it on land.
So millions of householders are breaking the law.

No, it could be argued that the smokescreen is laid by
Europhobes.
The OP, for example, was given the impression that tea-bags, as
such, were classified as an animal product: this impression is
false. That's a feature of my weltschmerz.

I'm not with you.
'The reason, according to the EU's Animal By-Products Order 1999,
is
that teabags, and indeed used coffee filters, could have come in
contact with contaminated milk'

Seems a pretty clear statement. Which word don't you like?

The reference is indeed clear: taking the link as a whole it's
clearly to used tea-bags, not to tea-bags as such. You appear to have
said as much yourself earlier in the thread.

It's interesting the way that a google search for this sort of
disinformation/nonesense usually leads to a Rupert Murdoch
publication.

It's more interesting that pro-EU propaganda fails when the
legislation itself is actually unearthed.

I don't think I've actually _seen_ any pro-EU propaganda in this
country for a generation or so. It's time there was some.

Mike.

In article ,
Mike Lyle wrote:
anton wrote:

/All/ Britsh govts deliberately negligent? Only one government has
ever allowed f & m to spread, avoiding calling the army in, because
they wanted to hold to their schedule for an early election.

I said all Br Govts were particularly unscientific and deliberately
negligent. I didn't specify foot-and-mouth; but on that I think
they've all been both unscientific and gutless to the point of
something hard to distinguish from negligence.

All recent ones, certainly. The actions that led to the creation of
BSE (a UK exclusive - a new disease!) started during the reign of
the Blessed Margaret. I doubt that she had anything to do with it,
though, not even by appointing particularly clueless and boot-licking
(to large, unscrupulous corporations) ministers. I am pretty certain
that the decisions were never put in front of any minister in a way
that they could reasonably have been expected to realise possible
consequences.

The actions leading to the foot and mouth epidemic were nearly as old,
and those leading to the import of Dutch elm disease were older. In
all cases (as with the Manchester aircraft fire, the Herald of Free
Enterprise, the Falklands invasion and others), the experts had been
trying to explain why the consequence was inevitable for some years,
but were being ignored.

Whitehall rules, irresponsibly.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

SNIP

The reference is indeed clear: taking the link as a whole it's
clearly to used tea-bags, not to tea-bags as such.

Hands up those who compost unused teabags.

Steve

"Janet Tweedy" wrote in message
...
In article , Nick Maclaren
writes

How very unadventurous. Why not:

Use them as ammunition for a CATapult?
Build a raised bed for peat-loving plants?
Use them as sandbags when the icecaps melt and England floods?
Dry them and burn them for an Irish turf fire experience?
I am sure that people can think of other gardening ideas ....


Ericaceous mini-growbags?

Steve

On 30 Jan 2005 20:19:24 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

~In article ,
~jane wrote:
~
~This is actually rather more worrying. If the central composting plant
~cannot get to high temperatures, how on earth are they going to
~prevent the resulting compost spreading somebody's dumped Japanese
~Knotweed or horsetail all over Wales???
~
~Urk. South Welsh gardeners may be wise to avoid buying the resulting
~compost!
~
~Well, they may be, but not for that reason. Such roots don't last
~long even in a 'cold' composting process, because they have to either
~grow or die - and there isn't enough light (and often not enough air)
~to grow. Also, when they do sprout, the new growth is very susceptible
~to attack by bacteria and fungi.

er, I think it *can* survive
http://www.compost.me.uk/html/japanese_knotweed.html

"The results of the study suggest that for regeneration to be
prevented a temperature greater than 55oC needs to be maintained in
the compost, for at least one week."

So I guess the question is how hot does it actually get?

~The danger comes from bacteria, fungi etc. with resistant spores, such
~as tetanus or anthrax (neither currently a major problem in the UK),
~and possibly things like white rot of alliums. I don't know which
~plant pathogens have resistant spores, but it is fewer than most people
~think.

mmm I'd hate to acquire white rot or anything else for that matter via
poorly made compost. I could do right now with about a ton of topsoil
for my new lottie raised beds but not till I find a reputable supplier
for that and the organic matter it will no doubt need mixing with.

Ah, the joys of organic veggie gardening!


--
jane

Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone,
you may still exist but you have ceased to live.
Mark Twain

Please remove onmaps from replies, thanks!

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "anton" contains these words:


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...

UK kitchen refuse is not banned from composting
http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/...cs/kitchen.htm
(snip)


So the ******* have made illegal what nearly everyone in this ng is
doing,
and since then have been trying to avoid admitting it.

You're misleading this group.

No. Defra's website is not as clear as it should be, because it refers to
the 'amended legislation' without making it totally clear as to whether the
relevant amendment is the 2001 amendment or the 'pending' amendment.

However,
"Pending the amending of the legislation, spreading on land composted waste
that contains meat, or could have come into contact with meat, or has been
in premises that also handle meat, remains illegal"
makes it clear enough.

Here is what Defra says, spelled out for
you from the source I quoted above.

*" Q3. Under the amended legislation, ****will*** householders who keep
pets or
other animals (which would *access composted material spread on their
land) be allowed to use composted kitchen waste on their *gardens?

*Yes, subject to certain conditions (see below) and providing it is
composted from the kitchen waste *of the household.


[my emphasis added above]

You missed the future tense in the 'will'. I suggest that you re-read it
taking careful note of how they use the future tense to tell us about what
the legislation *will* be in future.

It's a sad thing when government output is designed to cover their previous
cock-ups and mislead us, and has to be read with a lawyer's eye to discover
what the real state of affairs is.

--
Anton

In article ,
shazzbat wrote:

The reference is indeed clear: taking the link as a whole it's
clearly to used tea-bags, not to tea-bags as such.

Hands up those who compost unused teabags.

I have done :-)


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
jane wrote:
~
~Well, they may be, but not for that reason. Such roots don't last
~long even in a 'cold' composting process, because they have to either
~grow or die - and there isn't enough light (and often not enough air)
~to grow. Also, when they do sprout, the new growth is very susceptible
~to attack by bacteria and fungi.

er, I think it *can* survive
http://www.compost.me.uk/html/japanese_knotweed.html

"The results of the study suggest that for regeneration to be
prevented a temperature greater than 55oC needs to be maintained in
the compost, for at least one week."

Anyone who expects to produce compost from unsorted but compostable
household and garden waste in a week clearly believes in fairy
godmothers. I don't have that in my garden, but my experience is
that perennial weed roots (and potatoes) will often last a winter;
what kills them is sprouting in warmth and damp, being unable to
establish viable leaves, and being attacked by bacteria and fungi.

I don't believe that perennial weeds are likely to get through any
COMPLETE composting process that is capable to handling cardboard,
privet prunings, orange rind and the other things that need to be
composted.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Mike Lyle" wrote in message
...

anton wrote:


I'm not with you.
'The reason, according to the EU's Animal By-Products Order 1999,
is
that teabags, and indeed used coffee filters, could have come in
contact with contaminated milk'

Seems a pretty clear statement. Which word don't you like?

The reference is indeed clear: taking the link as a whole it's
clearly to used tea-bags, not to tea-bags as such. You appear to
have
said as much yourself earlier in the thread.

I find it hard to imagine anybody putting any unused tea-bags on the
compost heap, except as a result of an occasional mistake.
{:-))

[snip]

Franz