In article ,
"Franz Heymann" writes:
|
| I find it hard to imagine anybody putting any unused tea-bags on the
| compost heap, except as a result of an occasional mistake.
| {:-))

Nah. We were clearing out cupboards and there were some ancient
ones - not used because I don't like them much and use leaf tea.
We were also given some special tea bags that were singularly
repulsive (e.g. with added rhubarb and samphire) that got the
same treatment.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article ,
"Franz Heymann" writes:

I find it hard to imagine anybody putting any unused tea-bags on
the
compost heap, except as a result of an occasional mistake.
{:-))

Nah. We were clearing out cupboards and there were some ancient
ones - not used because I don't like them much and use leaf tea.
We were also given some special tea bags that were singularly
repulsive (e.g. with added rhubarb and samphire) that got the
same treatment.

Yep, my position, too. Though I have also composted stale leaf tea in
my time.

Mike.

In article ,
"Mike Lyle" writes:
|
| Yep, my position, too. Though I have also composted stale leaf tea in
| my time.

Me too :-)

I have never had the nerve to use it directly as a peat substitute,
but I can think of few reasons not to. Black tea is, after all,
only partially composted leaves ....


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article ,
Janet Baraclough wrote:
The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:
In article ,
jane wrote:
~
~Well, they may be, but not for that reason. Such roots don't last
~long even in a 'cold' composting process, because they have to either
~grow or die - and there isn't enough light (and often not enough air)
~to grow. Also, when they do sprout, the new growth is very susceptible
~to attack by bacteria and fungi.

er, I think it *can* survive
http://www.compost.me.uk/html/japanese_knotweed.html

"The results of the study suggest that for regeneration to be
prevented a temperature greater than 55oC needs to be maintained in
the compost, for at least one week."

Anyone who expects to produce compost from unsorted but compostable
household and garden waste in a week clearly believes in fairy
godmothers.

The claim above doesn't say one week at 55 degrees is long enough to
create compost. It says that one week of sustained 55 degrees in the
compost process, will ensure JK plant-parts can't regenerate.

I never said anything else. I was pointing out that the converse is
NOT the case - i.e. it is NOT generally true that they CAN survive
composting, for the reasons I explained. A week at 55 Celcius is
sufficient but not necessary.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"Franz Heymann" writes:
|
| I find it hard to imagine anybody putting any unused tea-bags on
the
| compost heap, except as a result of an occasional mistake.
| {:-))

Nah. We were clearing out cupboards and there were some ancient
ones - not used because I don't like them much and use leaf tea.
We were also given some special tea bags that were singularly
repulsive (e.g. with added rhubarb and samphire) that got the
same treatment.

May I take it that you found something innocuous but equally repulsive
to give to the giver?

Franz

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 07:47:48 +0000 (UTC), "anton"
wrote:


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "anton" contains these words:


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in
message
...

UK kitchen refuse is not banned from composting

http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/...cs/kitchen.htm
(snip)


So the ******* have made illegal what nearly everyone in this
ng is
doing,
and since then have been trying to avoid admitting it.

You're misleading this group.

No.

or yourself?

Defra's website is not as clear as it should be, because it
refers to
the 'amended legislation' without making it totally clear as to
whether the
relevant amendment is the 2001 amendment or the 'pending'
amendment.

However,
"Pending the amending of the legislation, spreading on land
composted waste
that contains meat, or could have come into contact with meat, or
has been
in premises that also handle meat, remains illegal"
makes it clear enough.

Milk residues in tea bags are meat?

No, but the inside of an udder is, depending on your definition of
meat.

Franz

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "anton" contains these words:


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "anton" contains these words:


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...

UK kitchen refuse is not banned from composting
http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/...cs/kitchen.htm
(snip)


So the ******* have made illegal what nearly everyone in this ng is
doing,
and since then have been trying to avoid admitting it.

You're misleading this group.

No. Defra's website is not as clear as it should be, because it refers
to
the 'amended legislation' without making it totally clear as to whether
the
relevant amendment is the 2001 amendment or the 'pending' amendment.



However,
"Pending the amending of the legislation, spreading on land composted
waste
that contains meat, or could have come into contact with meat, or has
been
in premises that also handle meat, remains illegal"
makes it clear enough

""Use of compost from "green waste".

Where green waste has been properly composted and is no longer waste
then there are no restrictions on its use on land. "


"However the composting and use of green (garden) waste is unaffected by
these provisions."
We were talking about kitchen waste, including vegetable waste from
kitchens, e.g teabags, so your quote concerning green waste is irrelevant.

Here is what Defra says, spelled out for
you from the source I quoted above.

*" Q3. Under the amended legislation, ****will*** householders who
keep
pets or
other animals (which would *access composted material spread on their
land) be allowed to use composted kitchen waste on their *gardens?

*Yes, subject to certain conditions (see below) and providing it is
composted from the kitchen waste *of the household.


[my emphasis added above]

You missed the future tense in the 'will'. I suggest that you re-read
it
taking careful note of how they use the future tense to tell us about
what
the legislation *will* be in future.

You're lost in the past, it was clearly dated 2001.

Don't be daft Janet-
"Page published 24 April 2003;
Page last modified 14 July, 2004 "
Of course it's possible that defra are sufficiently clownish to refer to
2001 as being in the future on a page dated 2004. However, during a similar
discussion I read the actual legislation (2001) and that indeed made it
illegal to compost and spread on land /anything/ that had been in a kitchen,
without any derogation for individual households.

"Use of compost from "green waste".

Where green waste has been properly composted and is no longer waste
then there are no restrictions on its use on land.

Yes. They define green waste as garden waste, and anything that has been in
a kitchen and hence is potentially contaminated, is excluded from their
definition of green waste.


Use of compost from "mixed" waste

Where catering or household waste contains meat or other products
derived from animals then,
although it may be composted, it may not, currently, be used on land.
The Animal By- Products Order prohibits the use of this mixed compost on
land where animals (including wild birds) may have access. However, this
position, is set to change. The draft EU Regulation on Animal By
-Products will allow the use of properly composted mixed waste on all
land except pastural land. We expect this Regulation to come into force
in the Spring of 2002."

The above quote is not from the url you quote, and I suspect that you've
missed a trick. Please give the source of your quote.

--
Anton

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 17:42:46 GMT, Janet Baraclough
wrote:

~The message
~from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:
~
~ In article ,
~ jane wrote:
~ ~
~ ~Well, they may be, but not for that reason. Such roots don't last
~ ~long even in a 'cold' composting process, because they have to either
~ ~grow or die - and there isn't enough light (and often not enough air)
~ ~to grow. Also, when they do sprout, the new growth is very susceptible
~ ~to attack by bacteria and fungi.
~
~ er, I think it *can* survive
~ http://www.compost.me.uk/html/japanese_knotweed.html
~
~ "The results of the study suggest that for regeneration to be
~ prevented a temperature greater than 55oC needs to be maintained in
~ the compost, for at least one week."
~
~ Anyone who expects to produce compost from unsorted but compostable
~ household and garden waste in a week clearly believes in fairy
~ godmothers.
~
~ The claim above doesn't say one week at 55 degrees is long enough to
~create compost. It says that one week of sustained 55 degrees in the
~compost process, will ensure JK plant-parts can't regenerate.

Which it doesn't sound like the Welsh process can, sadly. I know we've
had discussions in urg before on whether commercial composting can
kill such things: now we know they may not be able to, so I shall make
a point of never buying anything from the local recycling centre until
all of them have to be operating to EU guidelines ie hot enough.

*sigh*


--
jane

Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone,
you may still exist but you have ceased to live.
Mark Twain

Please remove onmaps from replies, thanks!

In article ,
(jane) writes:
| ~
| ~ The claim above doesn't say one week at 55 degrees is long enough to
| ~create compost. It says that one week of sustained 55 degrees in the
| ~compost process, will ensure JK plant-parts can't regenerate.
|
| Which it doesn't sound like the Welsh process can, sadly. I know we've
| had discussions in urg before on whether commercial composting can
| kill such things: now we know they may not be able to, so I shall make
| a point of never buying anything from the local recycling centre until
| all of them have to be operating to EU guidelines ie hot enough.

Aargh! NO!!!

What I am trying to get across is that ALMOST ANY relevant composting
process will eliminate weed roots, including Japanese knotweed - you
needn't worry about things like that. Much more serious concerns
are resistant spores and seeds, which are NOT necessarily killed by
longer, cooler composting.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

On 1 Feb 2005 11:15:08 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote:

~
~In article ,
(jane) writes:
~| ~
~| ~ The claim above doesn't say one week at 55 degrees is long enough to
~| ~create compost. It says that one week of sustained 55 degrees in the
~| ~compost process, will ensure JK plant-parts can't regenerate.
~|
~| Which it doesn't sound like the Welsh process can, sadly. I know we've
~| had discussions in urg before on whether commercial composting can
~| kill such things: now we know they may not be able to, so I shall make
~| a point of never buying anything from the local recycling centre until
~| all of them have to be operating to EU guidelines ie hot enough.
~
~Aargh! NO!!!
~
~What I am trying to get across is that ALMOST ANY relevant composting
~process will eliminate weed roots, including Japanese knotweed - you
~needn't worry about things like that. Much more serious concerns
~are resistant spores and seeds, which are NOT necessarily killed by
~longer, cooler composting.

I am certainly not disputing the spore/seed problem. And I wish my
ordinary type of allotment cold heap *could* kill off weed seeds! Is
there a better way of destroying spores than a bonfire?
Or is this still not guaranteed? (I suspect not - fungi can be tough.)
I had smut on my sweetcorn in 2003 (it likes it hot) so have had to
quarantine a couple of areas of land and remove the haulms in bin
liners. But where does one put them? I went to the recycling facility,
but they couldn't tell me if their heaps were hot...

Would you want to risk the possibility that the roots *could* survive?

I have dreadful problems with bindweed and couch roots. They too get
removed offsite in bags simply because I know from bitter experience
they can survive my cold heap (and invade it!). Hence my doubt about
the commercial cold process...

Perhaps we should start a new thread on better hot home composting
techniques! I'm all ears... (though please can the chaps note that for
us ladies, providing recycled beer activation doesn't happen when up
the allotments!)


--
jane

Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone,
you may still exist but you have ceased to live.
Mark Twain

Please remove onmaps from replies, thanks!

anton wrote:
"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "anton" contains these words:
[...] Here is what Defra says, spelled out for
you from the source I quoted above.

*" Q3. Under the amended legislation, ****will*** householders
who
keep pets or other animals (which would *access composted
material
spread on their land) be allowed to use composted kitchen waste
on
their *gardens?

*Yes, subject to certain conditions (see below) and providing it
is
composted from the kitchen waste *of the household.


[my emphasis added above]

You missed the future tense in the 'will'. I suggest that you
re-read it taking careful note of how they use the future tense
to
tell us about what the legislation *will* be in future.

You're lost in the past, it was clearly dated 2001.

Don't be daft Janet-
"Page published 24 April 2003;
Page last modified 14 July, 2004 "
Of course it's possible that defra are sufficiently clownish to
refer
to 2001 as being in the future on a page dated 2004. However,
during
a similar discussion I read the actual legislation (2001) and that
indeed made it illegal to compost and spread on land /anything/
that
had been in a kitchen, without any derogation for individual
households.

[...]

Be that as it may, you yourself quoted the passage which stated quite
clearly that domestic household material was to be exempt. I don't
mind you disliking the EU, but it's a bit much when you try to mess
about with our minds like this. Though pro-EU, I could probably make
a much better case against it myself without actual
misrepresentation: you could find some better ammo.

Mike.

In article ,
(jane) writes:
|
| I am certainly not disputing the spore/seed problem. And I wish my
| ordinary type of allotment cold heap *could* kill off weed seeds! Is
| there a better way of destroying spores than a bonfire?

Just hint to Mr Shrub that you have the missing weapons of mass
deception, and he will nuke your garden for you. Other than that,
probably not.

| Or is this still not guaranteed? (I suspect not - fungi can be tough.)
| I had smut on my sweetcorn in 2003 (it likes it hot) so have had to
| quarantine a couple of areas of land and remove the haulms in bin
| liners. But where does one put them? I went to the recycling facility,
| but they couldn't tell me if their heaps were hot...

No, it isn't, and generally such actions are a waste of time. With
earthborne spores, you either have them or you don't. With airborne
ones, you get them from miles off. Crop rotation etc. doesn't work
on a small scale.

| Would you want to risk the possibility that the roots *could* survive?

They aren't a major problem - if the occasional one did survive
(which is MOST unlikely), it is easy to spot and remove.

| I have dreadful problems with bindweed and couch roots. They too get
| removed offsite in bags simply because I know from bitter experience
| they can survive my cold heap (and invade it!). Hence my doubt about
| the commercial cold process...

I have no trouble with them on a cold heap, and have masses of both
in the garden.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "anton" contains these words:

Use of compost from "mixed" waste

Where catering or household waste contains meat or other products
derived from animals then,
although it may be composted, it may not, currently, be used on land.
The Animal By- Products Order prohibits the use of this mixed compost
on
land where animals (including wild birds) may have access. However,
this
position, is set to change. The draft EU Regulation on Animal By
-Products will allow the use of properly composted mixed waste on all
land except pastural land. We expect this Regulation to come into
force
in the Spring of 2002."

The above quote is not from the url you quote, and I suspect that you've
missed a trick.

Yes, sorry, I'd wandered onto another page dated June 2001 :~}

Please give the source of your quote.

http://www.defra.gov.uk/environment/...opics/compost/
Right. So rewind to your original url and you'll find that the composting
and spreading on land of stuff that's been in a kitchen (even a domestic
kitchen, not a commercial one) has been illegal, because of potential
contamination with animal products, since 2001.

The amendments which may change this are in the future as is implicit in
your original url dated 2004.

We are governed by liars that have turned the civil service, who were
formerly merely incompetent, into propagandists for their masters.
Accordingly, any government offering has to read very closely, and the bits
that possibly fooled you a
* the references to 'amended' legislation, without clarity as to whether
this was the original (2001) amendment or the amended amended legislation
(2006?);
*the reference to green waste which suggests broccoli stalks etc to you and
me but actually excludes these if they have been in a kitchen;
and
*'properly composted' which may suggest one thing to you but actually
requires a lot of automated control systems, temperature sensors, and record
keeping.

happy activation-free (cos it's an animal product)composting

--
Anton

On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:24:13 GMT, Janet Baraclough
wrote:

~The message
~from (jane) contains these words:
~
~
~ Perhaps we should start a new thread on better hot home composting
~ techniques! I'm all ears... (though please can the chaps note that for
~ us ladies, providing recycled beer activation doesn't happen when up
~ the allotments!)
~
~ Speak for yourself!When I had an allotment, there were no loos on the
~site, and I was usually up there for half a day with accompanying
~infants. Older people would spend the entire day there.
~Occasionally they disappeared discreetly into their rickety hut....or
~behind their compost heap/rhubarb patch.
~

:-)

Trouble is we've a *very* open site like an amphitheatre so can be
overlooked by a bus route and main road to housing estate. I did put a
bucket in the shed at one point but it now gets used for escorting
bindweed off the premises and rarely for the original intention!

I have been tempted to put a bolt on the shed door - inside!


--
jane

Don't part with your illusions. When they are gone,
you may still exist but you have ceased to live.
Mark Twain

Please remove onmaps from replies, thanks!

"jane" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 17:24:13 GMT, Janet Baraclough
wrote:

~The message
~from (jane) contains these words:
~
~
~ Perhaps we should start a new thread on better hot home
composting
~ techniques! I'm all ears... (though please can the chaps note
that for
~ us ladies, providing recycled beer activation doesn't happen when
up
~ the allotments!)
~
~ Speak for yourself!When I had an allotment, there were no loos
on the
~site, and I was usually up there for half a day with accompanying
~infants. Older people would spend the entire day there.
~Occasionally they disappeared discreetly into their rickety
hut....or
~behind their compost heap/rhubarb patch.
~

:-)

Trouble is we've a *very* open site like an amphitheatre so can be
overlooked by a bus route and main road to housing estate. I did put
a
bucket in the shed at one point but it now gets used for escorting
bindweed off the premises and rarely for the original intention!

Invest in a second bucket?

I have been tempted to put a bolt on the shed door - inside!

I would have thought that that would be a prime requirement..

Franz