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  #61   Report Post  
Old 07-02-2005, 02:00 PM
BAC
 
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"bigboard" wrote in message
...
Franz Heymann wrote:

snip

If you would care to provide a direct link to your evidence,
I will, of course, apologise. Similarly, if it turns out that you are
mistaken, perhaps you could do the decent thing?



Do the 'decent thing'? Isn't that the euphemism employed when they left a
chap alone in his study with a loaded service revolver? Bit excessive in
this case, surely :-)




  #62   Report Post  
Old 07-02-2005, 03:09 PM
suspicious minds
 
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Firstly, the worms were sold to me by a firm which specialises in worm
composting accessories.


In which case they will not be 'earthworms'.

Secondly, that url to which Kay used to draw our attention was written
by someone whose professional research is concerned with a study of
worms.
Do I believe him ot you?


As I studied the ecology of Earthworms extensively at university, I would
suggest a third possibility: you have incorrectly remembered what you read
on this site. If you would care to provide a direct link to your evidence,
I will, of course, apologise. Similarly, if it turns out that you are
mistaken, perhaps you could do the decent thing?


I have read the site that Franz is on about and indeed it does say that the
worms for composting can be obtained from your garden. What I think confuses
Franz is the different types of worms that can be found in the garden. The
site mentions that tiger worms etc are just fancy names for what are
commonly known as brandlings (Eisenia foetida) and redworms and can easily
be collected from compost heaps and under stones etc. It does not say that
earthworms( Lumbricus terrestis) which found on lawns etc and are commonly
known as lobworms are suitable for wormeries.I do not have the URL


  #63   Report Post  
Old 07-02-2005, 03:13 PM
Nick Maclaren
 
Posts: n/a
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In article ,
bigboard writes:
| Franz Heymann wrote:
|
| You can get composting worms from your garden, but earthworms, ie
| Lumbricus
| terrestris, would not be any use at all. Wrong type completely.
|
| Firstly, the worms were sold to me by a firm which specialises in worm
| composting accessories.
|
| In which case they will not be 'earthworms'.

Why not? As is normal in English, the word "earthworm" has both
a specific and generic meaning - in the former, it means an individual
of the genus Lumbricus (NOT necessarily terrestris) and, in the latter,
it means any worm that lives in the earth.

| Secondly, that url to which Kay used to draw our attention was written
| by someone whose professional research is concerned with a study of
| worms.
| Do I believe him ot you?
|
| As I studied the ecology of Earthworms extensively at university, I would
| suggest a third possibility: you have incorrectly remembered what you read
| on this site. If you would care to provide a direct link to your evidence,
| I will, of course, apologise. Similarly, if it turns out that you are
| mistaken, perhaps you could do the decent thing?

I can suggest a fourth one - you are using the word "earthworm" in
a ridiculously specific sense. If you want to refer to the species
Lumbricus terrestris, then please use that name - otherwise be aware
that the term also includes other worms, some of which ARE common
inhabitants of the earth in the UK and widely recommended for
wormeries.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
  #64   Report Post  
Old 07-02-2005, 03:56 PM
Nick Maclaren
 
Posts: n/a
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In article ,
"suspicious minds" writes:
|
| I have read the site that Franz is on about and indeed it does say that the
| worms for composting can be obtained from your garden. What I think confuses
| Franz is the different types of worms that can be found in the garden. The
| site mentions that tiger worms etc are just fancy names for what are
| commonly known as brandlings (Eisenia foetida) and redworms and can easily
| be collected from compost heaps and under stones etc. It does not say that
| earthworms( Lumbricus terrestis) which found on lawns etc and are commonly
| known as lobworms are suitable for wormeries.I do not have the URL

Er, not quite.

Lumbricus rubellus is called both the redworm and earthworm, even
in the latter term's more restrictive sense, and are (as far as I
know) called tiger worms only by the less reputable sort of worm
farm salesman. The term "lobworm" is more often used nowadays for
the lugworm (Arenicola marina) than any Lumbricus, but used to be
used for the latter. Lumbricus terrestris was also called the
dew-worm or dew-crawler.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
  #65   Report Post  
Old 07-02-2005, 04:15 PM
Mike Lyle
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Nick Maclaren wrote:
[...]
Lumbricus rubellus is called both the redworm and earthworm, even
in the latter term's more restrictive sense, and are (as far as I
know) called tiger worms only by the less reputable sort of worm
farm salesman. The term "lobworm" is more often used nowadays for
the lugworm (Arenicola marina) than any Lumbricus, but used to be
used for the latter. Lumbricus terrestris was also called the
dew-worm or dew-crawler.


Really aggrethive wormth wear little helminth.

Mike.




  #66   Report Post  
Old 07-02-2005, 04:35 PM
bigboard
 
Posts: n/a
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Nick Maclaren wrote:


In article ,
bigboard writes:
| Franz Heymann wrote:
|
| You can get composting worms from your garden, but earthworms, ie
| Lumbricus
| terrestris, would not be any use at all. Wrong type completely.
|
| Firstly, the worms were sold to me by a firm which specialises in
| worm composting accessories.
|
| In which case they will not be 'earthworms'.

Why not? As is normal in English, the word "earthworm" has both
a specific and generic meaning - in the former, it means an individual
of the genus Lumbricus (NOT necessarily terrestris) and, in the latter,
it means any worm that lives in the earth.

| Secondly, that url to which Kay used to draw our attention was
| written by someone whose professional research is concerned with a
| study of worms.
| Do I believe him ot you?
|
| As I studied the ecology of Earthworms extensively at university, I
| would suggest a third possibility: you have incorrectly remembered what
| you read on this site. If you would care to provide a direct link to
| your evidence, I will, of course, apologise. Similarly, if it turns out
| that you are mistaken, perhaps you could do the decent thing?

I can suggest a fourth one - you are using the word "earthworm" in
a ridiculously specific sense.


In the sense of those that live in tunnels in the earth? If by ridiculously
specific you mean 'correct' then I agree with you.

If you want to refer to the species
Lumbricus terrestris, then please use that name - otherwise be aware
that the term also includes other worms, some of which ARE common
inhabitants of the earth in the UK and widely recommended for
wormeries.


'Earthworm', in every other person I have ever spoken with, refers to those
that live in the soil and leave casts on the lawn. Earth meaning 'earth',
and worm meaning 'worm'. Hope this is clearer for you now.

--
"The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a bit
longer."
-- Henry Kissinger

  #67   Report Post  
Old 07-02-2005, 05:21 PM
Nick Maclaren
 
Posts: n/a
Default


In article ,
bigboard writes:
|
| Why not? As is normal in English, the word "earthworm" has both
| a specific and generic meaning - in the former, it means an individual
| of the genus Lumbricus (NOT necessarily terrestris) and, in the latter,
| it means any worm that lives in the earth.
|
| I can suggest a fourth one - you are using the word "earthworm" in
| a ridiculously specific sense.
|
| In the sense of those that live in tunnels in the earth? If by ridiculously
| specific you mean 'correct' then I agree with you.

No, by "ridiculously specific" I am implying "incorrect".

| If you want to refer to the species
| Lumbricus terrestris, then please use that name - otherwise be aware
| that the term also includes other worms, some of which ARE common
| inhabitants of the earth in the UK and widely recommended for
| wormeries.
|
| 'Earthworm', in every other person I have ever spoken with, refers to those
| that live in the soil and leave casts on the lawn. Earth meaning 'earth',
| and worm meaning 'worm'. Hope this is clearer for you now.

Then perhaps you should get out a little more (and probably read
a bit more). If you look around, you will find that Lumbricus
rubellus is commonly (even normally) called an earthworm, and many
people claim that it works in wormeries.

You will have to look a bit further to find the more general uses
of the term "earthworm", but I suggest looking at the OED as a
reference that summarises how words of the English language are
used in practice. Please don't invent your own meanings without
saying that you are doing so, as it merely causes confusion.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
  #68   Report Post  
Old 07-02-2005, 05:26 PM
bigboard
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Nick Maclaren wrote:

Then perhaps you should get out a little more (and probably read
a bit more). If you look around, you will find that Lumbricus
rubellus is commonly (even normally) called an earthworm, and many
people claim that it works in wormeries.

You will have to look a bit further to find the more general uses
of the term "earthworm", but I suggest looking at the OED as a
reference that summarises how words of the English language are
used in practice. Please don't invent your own meanings without
saying that you are doing so, as it merely causes confusion.


I'm sorry if using 'Earthworm' to indicate a type of worm distinct from a
composting worm confused you. I would have imagined that the meaning could
be easily grokked from context.

--
In the old days, it was not called the Holiday Season; the Christians
called it "Christmas" and went to church; the Jews called it "Hanukka"
and went to synagogue; the atheists went to parties and drank. People
passing each other on the street would say "Merry Christmas!" or "Happy
Hanukka!" or (to the atheists) "Look out for the wall!"
-- Dave Barry, "Christmas Shopping: A Survivor's Guide"

  #69   Report Post  
Old 07-02-2005, 05:36 PM
Nick Maclaren
 
Posts: n/a
Default


In article ,
bigboard writes:
| Nick Maclaren wrote:
|
| Then perhaps you should get out a little more (and probably read
| a bit more). If you look around, you will find that Lumbricus
| rubellus is commonly (even normally) called an earthworm, and many
| people claim that it works in wormeries.
|
| You will have to look a bit further to find the more general uses
| of the term "earthworm", but I suggest looking at the OED as a
| reference that summarises how words of the English language are
| used in practice. Please don't invent your own meanings without
| saying that you are doing so, as it merely causes confusion.
|
| I'm sorry if using 'Earthworm' to indicate a type of worm distinct from a
| composting worm confused you. I would have imagined that the meaning could
| be easily grokked from context.

Oh, it didn't confuse me - I was and am perfectly aware of what you
meant, being someone who is familiar with a large number of pseudo-
scientific jargons.

I was pointing out to you why your misuse of the English language
had caused an unnecessary argument between you and Franz Heymann.
Specifically:

You can get composting worms from your garden, but earthworms, ie

Lumbricus
terrestris, would not be any use at all. Wrong type completely.


Firstly, the worms were sold to me by a firm which specialises in worm
composting accessories.


In which case they will not be 'earthworms'.

Your first sentence is incorrect, though you are using the term
"earthworm" in a misleading fashion. Your last sentence is incorrect.
They could perfectly well have been Lumbricus rubellus.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
  #70   Report Post  
Old 07-02-2005, 05:47 PM
suspicious minds
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...

In article ,
"suspicious minds" writes:
|
| I have read the site that Franz is on about and indeed it does say that
the
| worms for composting can be obtained from your garden. What I think
confuses
| Franz is the different types of worms that can be found in the garden.
The
| site mentions that tiger worms etc are just fancy names for what are
| commonly known as brandlings (Eisenia foetida) and redworms and can
easily
| be collected from compost heaps and under stones etc. It does not say
that
| earthworms( Lumbricus terrestis) which found on lawns etc and are
commonly
| known as lobworms are suitable for wormeries.I do not have the URL

Er, not quite.

Lumbricus rubellus is called both the redworm and earthworm, even
in the latter term's more restrictive sense, and are (as far as I
know) called tiger worms only by the less reputable sort of worm
farm salesman. The term "lobworm" is more often used nowadays for
the lugworm (Arenicola marina) than any Lumbricus, but used to be
used for the latter. Lumbricus terrestris was also called the
dew-worm or dew-crawler.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.


Genarally speaking most non marine worms are "earthworms"
those most suitable for wormeries are brandlings (Eisenia foetida) and
redworm (Lumbricus rubellus)
Lobworm is used for (Lumbricus terrestris) look at any UK coarse(
freshwater) angling site, aka night crawler in America.
There are two marine species of lugworm, black lug (Arenicola defodiens )
and blow lug ( Arenicola marina) some dictionaries will refer to lugworm as
a lobworm but I have never heard any UK sea angler call the marine lugworm a
lobworm, look at any UK sea angling site
Lobworm =non marine
Lugworm = marine




  #71   Report Post  
Old 07-02-2005, 05:49 PM
Nick Maclaren
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Corrected version - the previous one had a typo.

In article ,
bigboard writes:
| Nick Maclaren wrote:
|
| Then perhaps you should get out a little more (and probably read
| a bit more). If you look around, you will find that Lumbricus
| rubellus is commonly (even normally) called an earthworm, and many
| people claim that it works in wormeries.
|
| You will have to look a bit further to find the more general uses
| of the term "earthworm", but I suggest looking at the OED as a
| reference that summarises how words of the English language are
| used in practice. Please don't invent your own meanings without
| saying that you are doing so, as it merely causes confusion.
|
| I'm sorry if using 'Earthworm' to indicate a type of worm distinct from a
| composting worm confused you. I would have imagined that the meaning could
| be easily grokked from context.

Oh, it didn't confuse me - I was and am perfectly aware of what you
meant, being someone who is familiar with a large number of pseudo-
scientific jargons.

I was pointing out to you why your misuse of the English language
had caused an unnecessary argument between you and Franz Heymann.
Specifically:

You can get composting worms from your garden, but earthworms, ie

Lumbricus
terrestris, would not be any use at all. Wrong type completely.


Firstly, the worms were sold to me by a firm which specialises in worm
composting accessories.


In which case they will not be 'earthworms'.

Your first sentence is correct, though you are using the term "earthworm"
^^^^^^^
in a misleading fashion. Your last sentence is incorrect. They could
perfectly well have been Lumbricus rubellus.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
  #72   Report Post  
Old 07-02-2005, 05:55 PM
Nick Maclaren
 
Posts: n/a
Default


In article ,
"suspicious minds" writes:
|
| Genarally speaking most non marine worms are "earthworms"

Yup.

| those most suitable for wormeries are brandlings (Eisenia foetida) and
| redworm (Lumbricus rubellus)

You could well be right - I don't know about that.

| Lobworm is used for (Lumbricus terrestris) look at any UK coarse(
| freshwater) angling site, aka night crawler in America.

Yes, I know that, but have never heard it outside the sea angling
community, and I don't have much contact with that.

| There are two marine species of lugworm, black lug (Arenicola defodiens )
| and blow lug ( Arenicola marina) some dictionaries will refer to lugworm as
| a lobworm but I have never heard any UK sea angler call the marine lugworm a
| lobworm, look at any UK sea angling site
| Lobworm =non marine
| Lugworm = marine

Well, not everyone who talks about such worms is a sea angler, you
know :-)

Actually, I have heard sea anglers refer to lugworms as lobworms,
and the OED confirms my recollection. It could well have been a
local usage, possibly even one that has now disappeared.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
  #73   Report Post  
Old 07-02-2005, 06:03 PM
bigboard
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Nick Maclaren wrote:


Corrected version - the previous one had a typo.

In article ,
bigboard writes:
| Nick Maclaren wrote:
|
| Then perhaps you should get out a little more (and probably read
| a bit more). If you look around, you will find that Lumbricus
| rubellus is commonly (even normally) called an earthworm, and many
| people claim that it works in wormeries.
|
| You will have to look a bit further to find the more general uses
| of the term "earthworm", but I suggest looking at the OED as a
| reference that summarises how words of the English language are
| used in practice. Please don't invent your own meanings without
| saying that you are doing so, as it merely causes confusion.
|
| I'm sorry if using 'Earthworm' to indicate a type of worm distinct from
| a composting worm confused you. I would have imagined that the meaning
| could be easily grokked from context.

Oh, it didn't confuse me - I was and am perfectly aware of what you
meant, being someone who is familiar with a large number of pseudo-
scientific jargons.


I was pointing out to you why your misuse of the English language


Which is hardly a fixed and rational language!

had caused an unnecessary argument between you and Franz Heymann.
Specifically:


English can be pesky like that. Meanings are usually defined by the way they
are used. We obviously have different experiences of the way earthworm is
used. This is not just me trying to defend myself against the odds; I know
ecologists with doctorates who use 'earthworm' in the same way as me. We
may well be wrong, but as I said, meaning usually comes from use. In any
case, your experience, and that of others, is obviously different from
mine, so you are right that that is where the original confusion occurred.
I'll stick to species names in future!

You can get composting worms from your garden, but earthworms, ie

Lumbricus
terrestris, would not be any use at all. Wrong type completely.


Firstly, the worms were sold to me by a firm which specialises in
worm composting accessories.


In which case they will not be 'earthworms'.

Your first sentence is correct, though you are using the term "earthworm"
^^^^^^^
in a misleading fashion. Your last sentence is incorrect. They could
perfectly well have been Lumbricus rubellus.





--
If at first you don't succeed, give up, no use being a damn fool.

  #74   Report Post  
Old 07-02-2005, 11:22 PM
Franz Heymann
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"bigboard" wrote in message
...
Franz Heymann wrote:


"bigboard" wrote in message
...
Franz Heymann wrote:


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in

message
...
The message
from "Franz Heymann"

contains
these words:

I do not have any failed worms on my farm. They are

thrivind
and
rotund.

Rotund doesn't sound much like brandling worms. You're not

using
earthworms, by any chance?

I bought them at great expense from a firm which sold them as

worms
for composting.
Hoever, Kay used to have a url to a site on worm composting. I

think
it was produced by her better half. (The site, that is, not

the
compost. {:-))
There, it was stated quite unequivocally that it was

unnecessary
to
obtain special worms for a wormery, and that garden earthworms

were as
good as anything.

You can get composting worms from your garden, but earthworms, ie

Lumbricus
terrestris, would not be any use at all. Wrong type completely.


Firstly, the worms were sold to me by a firm which specialises in

worm
composting accessories.


In which case they will not be 'earthworms'.

Secondly, that url to which Kay used to draw our attention was

written
by someone whose professional research is concerned with a study

of
worms.
Do I believe him ot you?


As I studied the ecology of Earthworms extensively at university, I

would
suggest a third possibility: you have incorrectly remembered what

you read
on this site.


I am definitely not misremembering.
The field of research of the person of whom I am talking is, wait for
it, worms.

If you would care to provide a direct link to your evidence,
I will, of course, apologise. Similarly, if it turns out that you

are
mistaken, perhaps you could do the decent thing?


I always apologise, without exception, as soon as I discover that I am
wrong.

I did not keep a record of that URL, but I will try and get hold of it
by contacting Kay in this ng.
Be patient for a few days while we see what I can dig up.

Franz


  #75   Report Post  
Old 07-02-2005, 11:32 PM
Franz Heymann
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"bigboard" wrote in message
...
Franz Heymann wrote:


"Janet Baraclough" wrote in message
...
The message
from "Franz Heymann" contains

these words:

I do not have any failed worms on my farm. They are thrivind

and
rotund.

Rotund doesn't sound much like brandling worms. You're not

using
earthworms, by any chance?


I bought them at great expense from a firm which sold them as

worms
for composting.
Hoever, Kay used to have a url to a site on worm composting. I

think
it was produced by her better half. (The site, that is, not the
compost. {:-))
There, it was stated quite unequivocally that it was unnecessary

to
obtain special worms for a wormery, and that garden earthworms

were as
good as anything.


You can get composting worms from your garden, but earthworms, ie

Lumbricus
terrestris, would not be any use at all. Wrong type completely.


I never mentioned the words"Lumbricus terreatris", so you are raising
a srtrawman.
I don't respond to strawmen.

Here is the URL I promised to get:

http://www.scarboro.demon.co.uk/edward/index.htm


I expect your promised apology in the next post.

Franz




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