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Intro from novice :-)

I've now had a chance to read the 'abc' posting and the webpages it refers
to. Since no-one has commented on my "Freesia bulbs" question as yet I
thought I'd try following what was suggested in the abc+FAQs and give a
brief outline of my situation/interest as I am a 'newcomer' to gardening.

I had to take 'early retirement on the basis of ill health' last May. Still
do a small amount of part time/freelance work - e.g. as a writer. However
the change has given me a chance at last to start gardening. Been meaning
to get gardening for many years, but combination of work and illness has
prevented it until now. As a result our garden is the result of a sort of
'benign neglect' over the last 20-odd years.

We live in St Andrews, Fife. Hence on the east coast. For Scotland we seem
to get relatively 'protected' weather a lot of time and get less in the way
of serious frost or snow than inland. In effect, we get the 'sea' weather a
lot of time as opposed to the 'inland' weather.

Main feature of our garden for many years has been:

1) Ground eldar. aaargh!

2) Trees. Mostly self-seeded from the park that backs onto our garden.

3) Raspberries/Tayberries. These have flourished and provided loads of Jam.

All the above have done fine under the 'benign neglect' regime, but we are
now trying to change things - whilst keeping (3) as best as we can! The old
regime seems to have resulted in good soil. albeit dominated by allowing
the leaves from the trees to fall and rot down where the fall each year for
20 years...

In general terms, our main problems at present are the obvious ones -
general ignorance and the need for loads of hard work. :-)

Since we have the park at the back we get a good view, but occasional
problems with kids in (or vandalising) the garden. There is a brick wall at
the end, and I am hoping to grow roses, and perhaps some thorny bushes up
this to give a 'pretty deterrent' here. 8-] However the ground in the
garden slopes down to this end-wall which then faces east. So the garden
side of the wall loses direct sun in the afternoon.

!+2+3 above means we've had a sort of 'green glade' for many years. Nice in
its way being shady, bushy, etc. However I am now keen to have a lot of
colour in terms of a variety of flowers. I've chopped down some of the
trees to get more light to the ground.

No doubt I've already made a fair few mistakes, but I hope to live long
enough to learn from them and end up with a 'better' garden. At present
working on a 'one area at a time' basis with ideas that adapt as I find out
things, etc.

I planted various bulbs in some areas last year, and it has been very
pleasing to find that they *do* come up and give flowers. :-) However
some seem to be less happy than others so I hope people here can advise on
this in due course.

I have some other specific questions/problems extra to the "freesias" one,
e.g. the 'failed bulbs' one I refer to above, but I'll post the details in
due course after I see what response (if any) I get to this posting and the
'freesia' one... :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
I've now had a chance to read the 'abc' posting and the webpages it refers
to. Since no-one has commented on my "Freesia bulbs" question as yet I
thought I'd try following what was suggested in the abc+FAQs and give a
brief outline of my situation/interest as I am a 'newcomer' to gardening.

Jim in a nutshell, as long as you are 'anti Mike', you will be 'flavour of
the month' with the net nannies and receive lots and lots of help. One is
away 'cruising you know' and the others will pop up from time to time. Get
on the right side of the barrowcloth and you are made :-))

Good luck with your gardening :-))

And your retirement, however it came ;-))

Mike
also retired :-)))))

In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:

Main feature of our garden for many years has been:

1) Ground eldar. aaargh!

Boil it as a sort of spinach and eat it to help with your gout. No,
it doesn't taste very nice, and I have no idea if it works :-)

2) Trees. Mostly self-seeded from the park that backs onto our garden.

!+2+3 above means we've had a sort of 'green glade' for many years. Nice in
its way being shady, bushy, etc. However I am now keen to have a lot of
colour in terms of a variety of flowers. I've chopped down some of the
trees to get more light to the ground.

That is the first step in discouraging ground elder!

I planted various bulbs in some areas last year, and it has been very
pleasing to find that they *do* come up and give flowers. :-) However
some seem to be less happy than others so I hope people here can advise on
this in due course.

I have some other specific questions/problems extra to the "freesias" one,
e.g. the 'failed bulbs' one I refer to above, but I'll post the details in
due course after I see what response (if any) I get to this posting and the
'freesia' one... :-)

Well, if you were trying to get freesias to naturalise, you were taking
something on! Some of the native bulbs will fight ground elder (e.g.
(English) bluebells, which will strangle anything if they like the
conditions). You are a long way north for freesias.

Good luck, but it sounds as if you are heading in the right direction
(i.e. one that will work!)

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

hello & welcome to the group good to hear of an other east coaster. I live &
work on gardens on the east coast of Suffolk. I like lots of salt hardy
plants in my beds.

CJ
"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jim Lesurf wrote:

Main feature of our garden for many years has been:

1) Ground eldar. aaargh!

Boil it as a sort of spinach and eat it to help with your gout. No,
it doesn't taste very nice, and I have no idea if it works :-)

2) Trees. Mostly self-seeded from the park that backs onto our garden.

!+2+3 above means we've had a sort of 'green glade' for many years. Nice
in
its way being shady, bushy, etc. However I am now keen to have a lot of
colour in terms of a variety of flowers. I've chopped down some of the
trees to get more light to the ground.

That is the first step in discouraging ground elder!

I planted various bulbs in some areas last year, and it has been very
pleasing to find that they *do* come up and give flowers. :-) However
some seem to be less happy than others so I hope people here can advise
on
this in due course.

I have some other specific questions/problems extra to the "freesias"
one,
e.g. the 'failed bulbs' one I refer to above, but I'll post the details
in
due course after I see what response (if any) I get to this posting and
the
'freesia' one... :-)

Well, if you were trying to get freesias to naturalise, you were taking
something on! Some of the native bulbs will fight ground elder (e.g.
(English) bluebells, which will strangle anything if they like the
conditions). You are a long way north for freesias.

Good luck, but it sounds as if you are heading in the right direction
(i.e. one that will work!)

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Colin Jacobs wrote:
[...]
I like lots of
salt hardy plants in my beds.

Ah, a subject of which I won't tire in the near future! What's on
your list?

Mike.

In article ,
Colin Jacobs wrote:
hello & welcome to the group good to hear of an other east coaster. I live &
work on gardens on the east coast of Suffolk. I like lots of salt hardy
plants in my beds.

Er, I assume that you don't me me? While Cambridge IS an east coast
seaport (seriously), it is a fair way off the coast.

At present. If the ruling bureaucrats and nominal leaders of the
USA and UK get their way, it may well be on the coast in some of your
lifetimes. If the north Atlantic drift doesn't reverse, of course,
when the concept of the east coast may become a bit moot (the whole
area being possibly under a layer of ice).

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Lesurf

Hi Jim,

I'm an ex-pat Scot living in London. Freesias are my all-time favourite flowers so I grow them every year. I'm putting mine in tomorrow, around three inches down. Although my micro-climate is probably warmer than yours, you mentioned applying cocoa mulch - this will give them any extra protection they might need from the cold.
Good luck with this and all the other gardening you're planning!

Amazin'

In article , Mike
wrote:

"Jim Lesurf" wrote in message
...
[snip]

Good luck with your gardening :-))

Thanks. I suspect I'll need it. Also a lot of patience. :-)

And your retirement, however it came ;-))

Well, the 'lead up' that made it necessary was un-enjoyable. However I *am*
quite enjoying being 'retired' and already wonder how I ever found the time
to do a full-time paid job. 8-]

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

In article , Nick Maclaren
wrote:
In article , Jim Lesurf
wrote:

[snip]

2) Trees. Mostly self-seeded from the park that backs onto our garden.

!+2+3 above means we've had a sort of 'green glade' for many years.
Nice in its way being shady, bushy, etc. However I am now keen to have
a lot of colour in terms of a variety of flowers. I've chopped down
some of the trees to get more light to the ground.

That is the first step in discouraging ground elder!

Ah! That is excellent news. I was just trying to get some more light so I
could see the garden and have more in the way of colourful flowers. Didn't
realise that reducing the shade would also help upset the ground elder.

I sprayed the ground elder with glyphosphate about once every 1-2 weeks for
about three months. In effect a repeated 'carpet bombing' regime. The
little boogers seemed dermined to survive, but I think I have 'discouraged'
them a bit. I plan to re-bomb soon, then after a week or so, start digging
and planting/sowing things.

The worst 'snag' has been that raspberries/tayberries (which we like) have
spread around the garden, and - to my ignorant view - their leaves look a
lot like the ground elder. I tried to avoid 'collateral damage' but I fear
this may not have been entirely successful. :-/

[snip]

I have some other specific questions/problems extra to the "freesias"
one, e.g. the 'failed bulbs' one I refer to above, but I'll post the
details in due course after I see what response (if any) I get to this
posting and the 'freesia' one... :-)

Well, if you were trying to get freesias to naturalise, you were taking
something on! Some of the native bulbs will fight ground elder (e.g.
(English) bluebells, which will strangle anything if they like the
conditions).

We already have a fair number of bluebells. (ahem, Scottish ;- ).

You are a long way north for freesias.

This is the kind of thing about which I am currently highly ignorant. At
present I am tending to proceed on the basis of "that looks nice and only
costs a couple of quid so I'll try shoving some in the ground and see if
they pop up." :-)

The problem is that when this works, great. But when it does not I don't
currently know if it was a hopeless choice, or if I should have done
something specific. However as I learn I am proceeding on the basis of
trying to get the garden to tell me what it will allow to grow, where. :-)

w.r.t. to the actual freesia thread I tried to start. It is now snowing
outside as I write this. I cleared the bed where I plan to put them, but
have not planted them as yet. Unless I get answers that tell me it would be
fine to do otherwise I will wait a week or two, and then plant them.

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

In article , Amazin
wrote:

Jim Lesurf Wrote:
I've now had a chance to read the 'abc' posting and the webpages it
refers to. Since no-one has commented on my "Freesia bulbs" question
as yet I thought I'd try following what was suggested in the abc+FAQs
and give a brief outline of my situation/interest as I am a 'newcomer'
to gardening.

Hi Jim,

I'm an ex-pat Scot living in London. Freesias are my all-time favourite
flowers so I grow them every year. I'm putting mine in tomorrow, around
three inches down. Although my micro-climate is probably warmer than
yours, you mentioned applying cocoa mulch - this will give them any
extra protection they might need from the cold.

OK. Thanks for that info. At present it is snowing, but it sounds like I
can plant them in a few days if I choose.

At present I am havering about the mulch as I want to use it on this bed,
but I also fancy trying to sow some seeds 'on top' of the freesia bulbs. I
assume, though, that seeds and mulch don't go together at this time of
year? The snag is that I could delay the mulch, but that would presumably
not then give valuable protection. So I guess this is 'make my mind up' and
just put in the bulbs, use the mulch, and not also put down seeds in the
same place.

Good luck with this and all the other gardening you're planning!

At the moment 'planning' is too organised a term for what I am doing. I
just keep having ideas, but then have no clue if they make sense, or if I
can physically manage. 'Dreaming' is probably closer... except for the
effects I feel in my muscles and joints after a while in the garden. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

Well, the 'lead up' that made it necessary was un-enjoyable. However I
*am*
quite enjoying being 'retired' and already wonder how I ever found the
time
to do a full-time paid job. 8-]

Slainte,

:-))

Let you into a little secret. Sunday night is great because you look forward
to Monday :-))

BUT

try to keep an eye on what day of the week it is because they all merge into
one long series of days without the dreaded Monday to pull you up with a
jolt

and with regards to doing a full time job, 'how did you find time?', I don't
have enough hours in the day and weeks in the year. I have just been
informed I am escorting a Naval Reunion to Weston super Mare in June :-)))
that is on top of 6 others and I haven't booked my cruise this year yet!!
(Hope to cruise 'Round the World' next year or the year after.:-))

Enjoy retirement.

Mike

In article ,
Jim Lesurf writes:
|
| I sprayed the ground elder with glyphosphate about once every 1-2 weeks for
| about three months. In effect a repeated 'carpet bombing' regime. The
| little boogers seemed dermined to survive, but I think I have 'discouraged'
| them a bit. I plan to re-bomb soon, then after a week or so, start digging
| and planting/sowing things.

Spraying with glyphosate has little effect except during spring and
summer.

| The worst 'snag' has been that raspberries/tayberries (which we like) have
| spread around the garden, and - to my ignorant view - their leaves look a
| lot like the ground elder. I tried to avoid 'collateral damage' but I fear
| this may not have been entirely successful. :-/

Enough will live. They are hard to kill. I have done the same.

| We already have a fair number of bluebells. (ahem, Scottish ;- ).

Sure? Campanula rotundifolia (English harebell), not Endymion
non-scripta (or whatever it is called now)?

| w.r.t. to the actual freesia thread I tried to start. It is now snowing
| outside as I write this. I cleared the bed where I plan to put them, but
| have not planted them as yet. Unless I get answers that tell me it would be
| fine to do otherwise I will wait a week or two, and then plant them.

They are normally grown in a cold greenhouse. Put them in the
warmest spot you can find, and don't be disappointed if they fail.
Try some for growing indoors, if you have room and the interest.

Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

In article , Nick Maclaren
wrote:

In article , Jim Lesurf
writes:
|
| I sprayed the ground elder with glyphosphate about once every 1-2
| weeks for about three months. In effect a repeated 'carpet bombing'
| regime.

Spraying with glyphosate has little effect except during spring and
summer.

Alas, I wasn't able to start the process until June-July as I didn't have
the time, etc, pre-retirement. I certainly found that one or two 'bombing
raids' had little effect, so just went on repeating the raids every few
weeks as chances arose. After a while the ground elder started to take the
hint and turn brown, shrivel, etc.

I assumed that the resiliance was due to the ground elder having extensive
roots, so requiring a lot of poison to kill.

I hope to start a 'new campaign' soon, and then start some digging and
riddling of the areas where I hope to start growing some flowers. My
thought at present is to concentrate on annuals as these (I think) will
give quicker initial results, and I will be less worried later on if they
become damaged by fresh campaigns against the ground elder. Does that make
sense?

| The worst 'snag' has been that raspberries/tayberries (which we like)
| have spread around the garden, and - to my ignorant view - their
| leaves look a lot like the ground elder. I tried to avoid 'collateral
| damage' but I fear this may not have been entirely successful. :-/

Enough will live. They are hard to kill.

I have noticed. :-) I seem to have 'discouraged' the ground elder a bit,
and helped clear a bit of space to give new plants a chance. But there is
still ground elder around, so I guess this is an ongoing war.

I have done the same.

| We already have a fair number of bluebells. (ahem, Scottish ;- ).

Sure?

Nope. :-) I have planted some English bluebells as bulbs, but the ones I
was thinking of I just called 'Scottish' as they were here before we
arrived and this is Scotland. Beyond that, once they come out I'll have a
careful look and check with a suitable book of pictures.

Campanula rotundifolia (English harebell), not Endymion
non-scripta (or whatever it is called now)?

As yet I'm afraid I haven't got used to any of the latin / scientific /
systematic names. Indeed, I'm still struggling to recognise one plant from
another at all! :-)

We have a number of 'miracle' plants that have survived the 20 years since
we moved in. Some of them look lovely, but I am not at all sure *what* they
are - apart from being stubborn. :-)

| w.r.t. to the actual freesia thread I tried to start. It is now
| snowing outside as I write this. I cleared the bed where I plan to
| put them, but have not planted them as yet. Unless I get answers that
| tell me it would be fine to do otherwise I will wait a week or two,
| and then plant them.

They are normally grown in a cold greenhouse. Put them in the warmest
spot you can find, and don't be disappointed if they fail.

At present I am working on the basis that a lot of what I try will fail due
to my ignorance, etc. So it will be a shame if I can't get them to grow,
but they were only a couple of pounds, and it seems easy enough to plant
them, so worth a go. I've also had an email suggesting when to plant them.
On balance I think I will wait until we are in March and the current cold
spell if well past. Then shove them in the ground and stand back. :-)

Try some for growing indoors, if you have room and the interest.

Alas, we don't really have much room indoors. Nor do we have a greenhouse.

Above said, my wife did point out last night that we have a bay window
which faces east in a room we don't use much. I've wondering if that may
be a suitable place in due course for experimenting with starting seeds,
etc, by just leaving them on the window sill in trays, or whatever. The
curtains go across the bay in line with the wall, so making an area the
size of the bay that is semi-enclosed when the curtains are drawn. Again,
what do people think of this as an approach? Seems like a sort of
'greenhouse' I suppose. :-)

Slainte,

Jim

--
Electronics http://www.st-and.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scot...o/electron.htm
Audio Misc http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/AudioMisc/index.html
Armstrong Audio http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/Audio/armstrong.html
Barbirolli Soc. http://www.st-and.demon.co.uk/JBSoc/JBSoc.html

In article , Jim Lesurf jcgl@st-
and.demon.co.uk writes

Alas, I wasn't able to start the process until June-July as I didn't have
the time, etc, pre-retirement. I certainly found that one or two 'bombing
raids' had little effect, so just went on repeating the raids every few
weeks as chances arose. After a while the ground elder started to take the
hint and turn brown, shrivel, etc.

How long did you wait for repeat applications? Glyphosate is a systemic,
which means it has to be absorbed by the plant's leaves, then starts
acting on its growth, so it's about three weeks before you see any
effect - before that, the plants are apparently growing healthily.

It may be that the turning brown etc was all a result of your first
application after all ;-)

I assumed that the resiliance was due to the ground elder having extensive
roots, so requiring a lot of poison to kill.

Waxy leaves meaning inefficient uptake seems to be a main factor in
glyphosate effectiveness, but this doesn't apply to ground elder.

I hope to start a 'new campaign' soon, and then start some digging and
riddling of the areas

Not as bad as it sounds. The roots only go down about a foot, are easy
to recognise once you have your eye in, are not particularly brittle,
and have a pleasant smell.

where I hope to start growing some flowers. My
thought at present is to concentrate on annuals as these (I think) will
give quicker initial results,

Broadly true. Slugs can be a problem with seeds sown in situ.

and I will be less worried later on if they
become damaged by fresh campaigns against the ground elder. Does that make
sense?

It gives you a gap in winter when you can do another digging campaign.
But it will be very hard to use glyphosate while the bed is planted, as
its systemic action means that just one leaf sprayed in error can kill
the plant. And come winter the ground elder won't be actively growing,
so the glyphosate won't be effective then.

Yes, you can brush glyphosate on to individual ground elder leaves, but
is that any easier than digging out roots?

| The worst 'snag' has been that raspberries/tayberries (which we like)
| have spread around the garden, and - to my ignorant view - their
| leaves look a lot like the ground elder. I tried to avoid 'collateral
| damage' but I fear this may not have been entirely successful. :-/

Enough will live. They are hard to kill.

Try looking at stems rather than leaves. Whichever way, you'll
eventually get your eye in. Hand weeding has improved my plant
identification no end!

I have noticed. :-) I seem to have 'discouraged' the ground elder a bit,
and helped clear a bit of space to give new plants a chance. But there is
still ground elder around, so I guess this is an ongoing war.

You'll win eventually.

You do know that there is a variegated form of ground elder which is
sold by garden centres as a garden plant? ;-)

I have done the same.

| We already have a fair number of bluebells. (ahem, Scottish ;- ).

Sure?

Nope. :-) I have planted some English bluebells as bulbs, but the ones I
was thinking of I just called 'Scottish' as they were here before we
arrived and this is Scotland.

If they have bulbs they are not harebells which we in england sometimes
refer to as 'scottish bluebells' ;-)

Beyond that, once they come out I'll have a
careful look and check with a suitable book of pictures.

http://www.plantlife.org.uk/Bluebells.htm
has an interactive guide for you to check whether you have the english
bluebell or the spanish, which is often sold under the name of
'english'.

Campanula rotundifolia (English harebell), not Endymion
non-scripta (or whatever it is called now)?

Hyacinthoides non-scripta, according to the Plantlife site.

As yet I'm afraid I haven't got used to any of the latin / scientific /
systematic names. Indeed, I'm still struggling to recognise one plant from
another at all! :-)

The latin/scientific/systematic helps there, as it's based on
relationships and therefore on the similarity of sexual parts, ie the
flowers - once you get to grips with basic flower shapes, you get some
idea of whereabouts a plant might sit, and this makes it much easier to
identify.

Whereas english names pay no attention at all to relationships, as in
the bluebell example above!

We have a number of 'miracle' plants that have survived the 20 years since
we moved in. Some of them look lovely, but I am not at all sure *what* they
are - apart from being stubborn. :-)

Worth finding out, since they are clearly the things that enjoy your
conditions, and you may find they have relatives that you like which
would also grow well.

At present I am working on the basis that a lot of what I try will fail due
to my ignorance, etc.

That's a great attitude - trying something and watching the results is a
good way to learn.

Try some for growing indoors, if you have room and the interest.

Alas, we don't really have much room indoors. Nor do we have a greenhouse.

Above said, my wife did point out last night that we have a bay window
which faces east in a room we don't use much.

That's a great situation - good light, without the sun to dry things
out.

I've wondering if that may
be a suitable place in due course for experimenting with starting seeds,
etc, by just leaving them on the window sill in trays, or whatever. The
curtains go across the bay in line with the wall, so making an area the
size of the bay that is semi-enclosed when the curtains are drawn.

That is a problem - when the curtains are drawn, the temperature inside
the 'greenhouse' will be nearer the outside temperature than to the
temperature of the room. So probably not to use yet, but perhaps in
March? And I'd consider starting the seed trays in plastic bags as a
sort of mini-propagator (or look out for clear plastic boxes used as
packaging which could act as lids for the seed tray).

Again,
what do people think of this as an approach? Seems like a sort of
'greenhouse' I suppose. :-)

--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

In article , Kay
wrote:
In article , Jim Lesurf jcgl@st-
and.demon.co.uk writes

Alas, I wasn't able to start the process until June-July as I didn't
have the time, etc, pre-retirement. I certainly found that one or two
'bombing raids' had little effect, so just went on repeating the raids
every few weeks as chances arose. After a while the ground elder
started to take the hint and turn brown, shrivel, etc.

How long did you wait for repeat applications? Glyphosate is a systemic,
which means it has to be absorbed by the plant's leaves, then starts
acting on its growth, so it's about three weeks before you see any
effect - before that, the plants are apparently growing healthily.

It was typically almost a couple of weeks between applications. And I
repeated this over a few months.

It may be that the turning brown etc was all a result of your first
application after all ;-)

That may well have been true to a large extent. :-) Maybe a lot of my
later applications were simply inflicting gratuitous injury on the dying.
However ground elder being what it is, I feel no compassion for this...
;-

I hope to start a 'new campaign' soon, and then start some digging and
riddling of the areas

Not as bad as it sounds. The roots only go down about a foot, are easy
to recognise once you have your eye in, are not particularly brittle,
and have a pleasant smell.

OK. Now you say that I think I realise what you mean as I noticed a smell
as I broke/tore some of the leaves/stalks at times.

When I first started trying to dig the surface there seemed to be a really
thick 'mat' of entwined roots that was about 2-3 inches thick. Could at
times peel this back, but in many areas it was well rooted into the soil
under it. At one point I was cutting it out in 'carpet squares' and
riddling some soil from it before discarding the roots into a bin.

where I hope to start growing some flowers. My thought at present is
to concentrate on annuals as these (I think) will give quicker initial
results,

Broadly true. Slugs can be a problem with seeds sown in situ.

and I will be less worried later on if they become damaged by fresh
campaigns against the ground elder. Does that make sense?

It gives you a gap in winter when you can do another digging campaign.
But it will be very hard to use glyphosate while the bed is planted, as
its systemic action means that just one leaf sprayed in error can kill
the plant. And come winter the ground elder won't be actively growing,
so the glyphosate won't be effective then.

A friend advised that if I accidentally spray a leaf on a wanted plant to
either simply pull off the leaf, or to rub it with soil. However the main
problem last year was that I often didn't know what I had just sprayed.
:-) So I just took the view that some collatoral damage was unavoidable and
acceptable to help reduce the ground elder prior to future, better
understood, gardening.

Yes, you can brush glyphosate on to individual ground elder leaves, but
is that any easier than digging out roots?

I did buy and try a sort of 'weedkiller rollerball pen'. However I rapidly
decided as you say. That it was more bother than simply digginf out any
individual weeds in places I could not carpet bomb. :-)

However I assume that a snag with ground elder is that one or two leaves
may be attached to quite an extended root system, and so digging up a small
'weed' may leave the roots behind over a wider area. Whereas the
glyphosphate will deal with this more systematically. :-)

| The worst 'snag' has been that raspberries/tayberries (which we
| like) have spread around the garden, and - to my ignorant view -
| their leaves look a lot like the ground elder. I tried to avoid
| 'collateral damage' but I fear this may not have been entirely
| successful. :-/

Enough will live. They are hard to kill.

This must be so. The raspberries we have managed to prosper during our
previous 'benign neglect' regime of 20 years, and gave more fruit that we
could make into jam.

Try looking at stems rather than leaves. Whichever way, you'll
eventually get your eye in. Hand weeding has improved my plant
identification no end!

I have noticed. :-) I seem to have 'discouraged' the ground elder a
bit, and helped clear a bit of space to give new plants a chance. But
there is still ground elder around, so I guess this is an ongoing war.

You'll win eventually.

I hope you are right. I did once say to my wife that I was patent. She fell
about laughing and said, "You're not at all patient. But you are stubborn
and persistent!" :-) I suspect this may be required when dealing with
ground elder...

You do know that there is a variegated form of ground elder which is
sold by garden centres as a garden plant? ;-)

Ivy? :-)

I have done the same.

| We already have a fair number of bluebells. (ahem, Scottish ;- ).

Sure?

Nope. :-) I have planted some English bluebells as bulbs, but the
ones I was thinking of I just called 'Scottish' as they were here
before we arrived and this is Scotland.

If they have bulbs they are not harebells which we in england sometimes
refer to as 'scottish bluebells' ;-)

Aha! Yes, they do have bulbs...

Beyond that, once they come out I'll have a careful look and check
with a suitable book of pictures.

http://www.plantlife.org.uk/Bluebells.htm has an interactive guide for
you to check whether you have the english bluebell or the spanish, which
is often sold under the name of 'english'.

Thanks. I'll check the above when I get a chance. :-)

The bluebells were (mostly) in the garden when we bought the house. Hence I
don't know anything about them apart from seeing them come up each year.
That said, since my wife like bluebells I bought some 'english' ones last
year and planted them, so will also look to see if these seem the same when
they flower.

Campanula rotundifolia (English harebell), not Endymion non-scripta
(or whatever it is called now)?

Hyacinthoides non-scripta, according to the Plantlife site.

As yet I'm afraid I haven't got used to any of the latin / scientific /
systematic names. Indeed, I'm still struggling to recognise one plant
from another at all! :-)

The latin/scientific/systematic helps there, as it's based on
relationships and therefore on the similarity of sexual parts, ie the
flowers - once you get to grips with basic flower shapes, you get some
idea of whereabouts a plant might sit, and this makes it much easier to
identify.

I can appreciate the value of the systematic names as I have a background
in science - alas nothing to do with biology, botany, or gardening, though.
Hence I've never learned any of the names, or their meanings or information
content. I hope to pick up the 'language' in due course, but the snag is
the obvious one. The sheer range of plants and the complexities of all the
details!

Whereas english names pay no attention at all to relationships, as in
the bluebell example above!

We have a number of 'miracle' plants that have survived the 20 years
since we moved in. Some of them look lovely, but I am not at all sure
*what* they are - apart from being stubborn. :-)

Worth finding out, since they are clearly the things that enjoy your
conditions, and you may find they have relatives that you like which
would also grow well.

At present I am suffering from the 'dictionary problem'. How to check the
spelling of a word by looking it up when you don't know how to spell it.
:-)

In this case, how to determine what a given flower/plant may be when you
don't know anything about how they are systematically organised and named
and by what detailed charateristics. I understand the process in principle,
but have almost no idea of the details. :-)

I am currently approaching this in various ways. Buying some magazines and
books and reading them, etc. However one of my plans at present is to ask
on u.r.g. I am hoping that I can take a photo when baffled, put it on a
webpage, then ask people here if they'd mind having a look and letting me
know what I have photographed.

Indeed, I am just about to start a new thread based on using some
pictures... :-) Hope people can help me with it.

At present I am working on the basis that a lot of what I try will fail
due to my ignorance, etc.

That's a great attitude - trying something and watching the results is a
good way to learn.

Yes. I've always found books, etc, useful. But I have also generally found
'try experimenting yourself' and 'ask someone who knows from their own
experience ' work particularly well. My experience of books is that they
often contain mistakes, or things that aren't relevant in a specific case,
or which are not clearly explained. Dealing with this requires the
'interaction' and the experience. I have always learned more from trying
things and discussing them than from books.

[snip]

Above said, my wife did point out last night that we have a bay window
which faces east in a room we don't use much.

That's a great situation - good light, without the sun to dry things out.

I've wondering if that may be a suitable place in due course for
experimenting with starting seeds, etc, by just leaving them on the
window sill in trays, or whatever. The curtains go across the bay in
line with the wall, so making an area the size of the bay that is
semi-enclosed when the curtains are drawn.

That is a problem - when the curtains are drawn, the temperature inside
the 'greenhouse' will be nearer the outside temperature than to the
temperature of the room.

The bay gets very warm during sunny days, but I suspect you are correct and
it gets cold at night at times. However I could leave a small opening in
the curtains, I guess, to try and even these variations out a little.

So probably not to use yet, but perhaps in
March? And I'd consider starting the seed trays in plastic bags as a
sort of mini-propagator (or look out for clear plastic boxes used as
packaging which could act as lids for the seed tray).

OK. I visited our local 'DIY' a couple of days ago and noticed they have
the trays, etc.

I ordered some packets of seeds (nearly all hardy annuals) a few days ago.
Once they come I'll read the info and decide which ones I might like to
experiment with in the 'window bay greenhouse' and which to put outside
directly at the relevant times.

Slainte,

Jim

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On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 10:13:34 +0000 (GMT), Jim Lesurf wrote:

Not as bad as it sounds. The roots only go down about a foot, are easy
to recognise once you have your eye in, are not particularly brittle,
and have a pleasant smell.

OK. Now you say that I think I realise what you mean as I noticed a smell
as I broke/tore some of the leaves/stalks at times.

The young leaves can be used as a salad.

--
Tim C.

In article , Jim Lesurf jcgl@st-
and.demon.co.uk writes
In article , Kay
wrote:

When I first started trying to dig the surface there seemed to be a really
thick 'mat' of entwined roots that was about 2-3 inches thick. Could at
times peel this back, but in many areas it was well rooted into the soil
under it. At one point I was cutting it out in 'carpet squares' and
riddling some soil from it before discarding the roots into a bin.

That's about right. Then fork about 6 inches under the 'mat' and get the
fatter roots out. You end up with a lot of very nicely broken up soil
;-)

A friend advised that if I accidentally spray a leaf on a wanted plant to
either simply pull off the leaf,

yes if you do it immediately before the stuff has time to work through.

or to rub it with soil.

That's because glyphosate becomes inactive on contact with soil - so it
says on the packet. I don't know the mechanism. Does rubbing a leaf with
soil actually work?

However I assume that a snag with ground elder is that one or two leaves
may be attached to quite an extended root system, and so digging up a small
'weed' may leave the roots behind over a wider area.

Yes to an extent, but once you're in the scenario of having a few 'small
weeds' to dig, it's easy enough to track back the roots. And remember
that there's a limit to the length of time it can go on regenerating
itself from its stored food supplies in the root without getting some
photosynthesis going - if you keep digging up the few remaining bits,
eventually any roots left won't have the energy to put up new shoots.

You do know that there is a variegated form of ground elder which is
sold by garden centres as a garden plant? ;-)

Ivy? :-)

No. Ground elder. Aegopodium podagraria 'Variegetum'. see, for example,
http://www.hardybamboo.com/shop/prod...how=Aegopodium
;-)

The bluebells were (mostly) in the garden when we bought the house. Hence I
don't know anything about them apart from seeing them come up each year.
That said, since my wife like bluebells I bought some 'english' ones last
year and planted them, so will also look to see if these seem the same when
they flower.

English - darker blue, flower a narrow tubular bell, stem slightly
floppy at top, flowers tend to be all on one side, flowers scented
Spanish - lighter blue, flower a more open flaring bell, stem sturdy and
erect, flowers all around, not scented.
The two readily hybridise.

I can appreciate the value of the systematic names as I have a background
in science - alas nothing to do with biology, botany, or gardening, though.
Hence I've never learned any of the names, or their meanings or information
content. I hope to pick up the 'language' in due course, but the snag is
the obvious one. The sheer range of plants and the complexities of all the
details!

Take it gently, but get into the habit at the start. Try to remember the
latin in preference to the english, and make a point of finding out
which family the flower is in. So your bluebell is in the lily family,
along with the lilies (obviously), all the onions, the daffodils, and
some oddities like butcher's broom and asparagus. Start looking at the
flowers and you'll see that they seem to have 6 petals (whereas 5 petals
seem generally more common amongst flowers) - actually it's 3 sepals and
3 petals, but the sepals and petals are the same colour.

Whereas if the individual flowers have 4 petals in a cross shape, it's a
fair bet that it's a member of the cabbage family Cruciferae (which
includes wallflowers (Cheiranthus) and candytuft (Iberis)

And the carrot family (Umbelliferae) has lots of tiny flowers in a sort
of 'umbrella' shape. Ground elder is an umbellifer ;-)

Worth finding out, since they are clearly the things that enjoy your
conditions, and you may find they have relatives that you like which
would also grow well.

At present I am suffering from the 'dictionary problem'. How to check the
spelling of a word by looking it up when you don't know how to spell it.
:-)

Try asking here. We're quite good at guessing what a misspelt flower
name might really be ;-)

In this case, how to determine what a given flower/plant may be when you
don't know anything about how they are systematically organised and named
and by what detailed charateristics. I understand the process in principle,
but have almost no idea of the details. :-)

It's especially difficult with garden plants as the books classify them
by everything under the sun! Look out for books by Martyn Rix and Roger
Phillips - not only do they have superb photos, but the do have a
tendency to cluster together at least a few plants in the same genus.

meanwhile, by a wildflower book to identify your weeds. Get one which is
ordered systematically and not, eg, by colour of flower - I'd recommend
the Collins guide by Fitter, Fitter and Blamey. That will start giving
you an understanding of family relationships, which you can then read
over into garden plants (many of which are non-british species of
families which have representatives in the UK, or varieties of UK
natives)

I am currently approaching this in various ways. Buying some magazines and
books and reading them, etc. However one of my plans at present is to ask
on u.r.g. I am hoping that I can take a photo when baffled, put it on a
webpage, then ask people here if they'd mind having a look and letting me
know what I have photographed.

Yes - lots of people do that. I don't know about others, but I enjoy the
puzzle aspect of trying to identify. I'm OK on wild flowers, others here
are much better than me on the garden ones.

That's a great attitude - trying something and watching the results is a
good way to learn.

Yes. I've always found books, etc, useful. But I have also generally found
'try experimenting yourself' and 'ask someone who knows from their own
experience ' work particularly well. My experience of books is that they
often contain mistakes, or things that aren't relevant in a specific case,
or which are not clearly explained. Dealing with this requires the
'interaction' and the experience. I have always learned more from trying
things and discussing them than from books.

Discussion also helps you to understand the rationale behind the advice.
I find understanding general principles rather than just knowing a lot
of specific cases is much less of a burden on the memory, and it enables
you to extrapolate to new situations.

Try Chiltern seeds. a) they have a very wide range of seeds many of
which are difficult to obtain elsewhere b) they use the latin names, and
tell you the family as well, and there's nothing like having to use the
latin to help you in remembering it. No pictures in the catalogue, so
it's useful to have something like Thompson and Morgan to read
alongside.
--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"