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Old 11-01-2003, 01:30 AM
Alan Holmes
 
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Default Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?


"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...
In article ,
James Collings wrote:
During the floods of last week, Thames water sewage plants couldn't
cope...and the backlog of untreated sewage filled the pipes, until it

burst
up and out of the drains... right into our back garden.

The result was 3 days of 6in deep sewage filled water covering a large
expanse of lawn and patio. Luckily none got in the house, but it is the
garden that I am concerned about.

After 3 days, the residue of sewage remained (the water soaked away), and

1
week later I am stil waiting for the "professional" clean-up of this

toxic
stuff.

Question: Will the sewage adversely affect the lawn, or the Apple tree
(eaters), or the large clematis that it soaked? If this is not a bad
thing... will the "clean-up" with powerful detergents do more harm than
good?


If it is domestic sewage, and you don't use too many of the most toxic
household chemicals, then it will do little harm. Effectively, it will
break down as the weather warms up and be a general fertilisation. You
may well get localised damage from burning and smothering, but probably
no more.

There is a significant chance that the clean-up will do massive damage,
depending on what chemicals and techniques they use. I have no expertise
here, but I would be VERY cautious before allowing such a thing to be
done to my garden - even for free.

Why do you think that it is toxic? Human excrement isn't particularly
toxic, even if you do eat at MacDonalds.


Slough sewage works distribute some stuff called cinagro!

Which is just sewage after treatment.

So I would say if it isn't causing any other problems leave it alone.

Alan
--
Reply to alan(at)windsor-berks(dot)freeserve(dot)co(dot)uk



  #17   Report Post  
Old 11-01-2003, 01:33 AM
Alan Holmes
 
Posts: n/a
Default Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?


"anton" wrote in message
...

Nick Maclaren wrote in message ...
In article ,
James Collings wrote:
During the floods of last week, Thames water sewage plants couldn't
cope...and the backlog of untreated sewage filled the pipes, until it

burst
up and out of the drains... right into our back garden.

The result was 3 days of 6in deep sewage filled water covering a large
expanse of lawn and patio. Luckily none got in the house, but it is the
garden that I am concerned about.

After 3 days, the residue of sewage remained (the water soaked away),

and
1
week later I am stil waiting for the "professional" clean-up of this

toxic
stuff.

Question: Will the sewage adversely affect the lawn, or the Apple tree
(eaters), or the large clematis that it soaked? If this is not a bad
thing... will the "clean-up" with powerful detergents do more harm than
good?


If it is domestic sewage, and you don't use too many of the most toxic
household chemicals, then it will do little harm. Effectively, it will
break down as the weather warms up and be a general fertilisation. You
may well get localised damage from burning and smothering, but probably
no more.


Mmm. I can't say I'd fancy any salads or strawberries
off that ground for a year or two.


Why not, would you refuse to eat any of those things following an
application of horse manure?

Toxic maybe isn' the word I'd use, but aren't there a variety of parasites

&
diseases present in raw sewage?


But when it dries out it will no longer be 'raw sewage'.

Alan
--
Reply to alan(at)windsor-berks(dot)freeserve(dot)co(dot)uk



  #18   Report Post  
Old 11-01-2003, 03:30 AM
Ted Richardson
 
Posts: n/a
Default Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?

You'll probably get a good crop of self-sown tomato plants
ted

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...
In article ,
James Collings wrote:
During the floods of last week, Thames water sewage plants couldn't
cope...and the backlog of untreated sewage filled the pipes, until it

burst
up and out of the drains... right into our back garden.

The result was 3 days of 6in deep sewage filled water covering a large
expanse of lawn and patio. Luckily none got in the house, but it is

the
garden that I am concerned about.

After 3 days, the residue of sewage remained (the water soaked away),

and
1
week later I am stil waiting for the "professional" clean-up of this

toxic
stuff.

Question: Will the sewage adversely affect the lawn, or the Apple tree
(eaters), or the large clematis that it soaked? If this is not a bad
thing... will the "clean-up" with powerful detergents do more harm than
good?


If it is domestic sewage, and you don't use too many of the most toxic
household chemicals, then it will do little harm. Effectively, it will
break down as the weather warms up and be a general fertilisation. You
may well get localised damage from burning and smothering, but probably
no more.

There is a significant chance that the clean-up will do massive damage,
depending on what chemicals and techniques they use. I have no

expertise
here, but I would be VERY cautious before allowing such a thing to be
done to my garden - even for free.

Why do you think that it is toxic? Human excrement isn't particularly
toxic, even if you do eat at MacDonalds.


Slough sewage works distribute some stuff called cinagro!

Which is just sewage after treatment.

So I would say if it isn't causing any other problems leave it alone.

Alan
--
Reply to alan(at)windsor-berks(dot)freeserve(dot)co(dot)uk





  #19   Report Post  
Old 11-01-2003, 11:07 AM
anton
 
Posts: n/a
Default Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?


Alan Holmes wrote in message ...

"anton" wrote in message
...

During the floods of last week, Thames water sewage plants couldn't
cope...and the backlog of untreated sewage filled the pipes, until it

burst
up and out of the drains... right into our back garden.

snip

Mmm. I can't say I'd fancy any salads or strawberries
off that ground for a year or two.


Why not, would you refuse to eat any of those things
following an application of horse manure?


I have no problem eating the things that I and others have
grown in ground to which horse manure is applied- (though
when I've used this then it isn't fresh).

But we (or most of us) are human, and a possible infection
route for many human diseases & parasites is via sewage.
I appreciate that the micro-organisms/ spores etc disappear
with time, but I don't know how much time. Eating things
which you eat raw from ground which has been freshly
flooded with a sample of everyone's faeces from miles
around sounds to me like a dopey idea. I hope that we
can agree on that. So the question then is- what length of
time would you leave before cropping such ground with
a crop that you eat raw? I'd choose a couple of years-
you choose what you like.

Toxic maybe isn' the word I'd use, but aren't there a
variety of parasites &
diseases present in raw sewage?


But when it dries out it will no longer be 'raw sewage'.



And the spores of which organisms will stillbe viable?

--
Anton


  #20   Report Post  
Old 11-01-2003, 12:09 PM
JennyC
 
Posts: n/a
Default Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?


"anton" wrote
Alan Holmes wrote in message ...
During the floods of last week, Thames water sewage plants

couldn't
cope...and the backlog of untreated sewage filled the pipes,

until it
burst up and out of the drains... right into our back garden.


snip


But when it dries out it will no longer be 'raw sewage'.


And the spores of which organisms will stillbe viable?
Anton


Could not resist looking for info on the web and found the following :

The Global Ideas Bank http://www.globalideasbank.org/BOV/BV-339.HTML
has fascinating info about a UK project to turn human sewage into
fertilizer :~)

And http://members.aol.com/wwanglia/framesf.htm has a whole site
devoted to the subject of "How Safe is Food from Human Sewage?"

It seems as if the UK is already supplying s**t to farmers..........
Jenny






  #21   Report Post  
Old 11-01-2003, 03:54 PM
Michael Berridge
 
Posts: n/a
Default Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?


anton wrote in message ...

I have no problem eating the things that I and others have
grown in ground to which horse manure is applied- (though
when I've used this then it isn't fresh).

But we (or most of us) are human, and a possible infection
route for many human diseases & parasites is via sewage.
I appreciate that the micro-organisms/ spores etc disappear
with time, but I don't know how much time. Eating things
which you eat raw from ground which has been freshly
flooded with a sample of everyone's faeces from miles
around sounds to me like a dopey idea. I hope that we
can agree on that. So the question then is- what length of
time would you leave before cropping such ground with
a crop that you eat raw? I'd choose a couple of years-
you choose what you like.

My house has a septic tank for drainage and a few years ago I was
flooded, this obviously caused the septic tank to fill and overflow. I
was warned to be careful if water got into the house (it did but only by
soaking up through the concrete floor. All carpets had to be destroyed
and replaced by the insurance company but nothing else was done. When or
septic tank is emptied I use a local farm contractor, who empties it and
it is then used to spread on the land that grows the crops you eat.
There is no danger as the crops cannot take up bacteria, but it is
always a good idea to wash all fruit and veg unless you know exactly
where and how they have been grown. This is also the major cause of
stomach upsets in the Mediterranean countries because, in many areas,
they spray growing crops with the diluted contents of septic tanks.

Mike
www.british-naturism.org.uk




  #22   Report Post  
Old 11-01-2003, 07:01 PM
anton
 
Posts: n/a
Default Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?


Michael Berridge wrote in message ...

anton wrote in message ...

I have no problem eating the things that I and others have
grown in ground to which horse manure is applied- (though
when I've used this then it isn't fresh).

But we (or most of us) are human, and a possible infection
route for many human diseases & parasites is via sewage.
I appreciate that the micro-organisms/ spores etc disappear
with time, but I don't know how much time. Eating things
which you eat raw from ground which has been freshly
flooded with a sample of everyone's faeces from miles
around sounds to me like a dopey idea. I hope that we
can agree on that. So the question then is- what length of
time would you leave before cropping such ground with
a crop that you eat raw? I'd choose a couple of years-
you choose what you like.

My house has a septic tank for drainage and a few years ago I was
flooded, this obviously caused the septic tank to fill and overflow. I
was warned to be careful if water got into the house (it did but only by
soaking up through the concrete floor. All carpets had to be destroyed
and replaced by the insurance company but nothing else was done. When or
septic tank is emptied I use a local farm contractor, who empties it and
it is then used to spread on the land that grows the crops you eat.
There is no danger as the crops cannot take up bacteria,


That's clearly not what I was on about. I have no worries
about apples- but salad crops grow near the ground and are liable to be
splashed from the ground by rain or irrigation.
That's not 'taking up' bacteria.

but it is always a good idea to wash all fruit and veg
unless you know exactly
where and how they have been grown.


and, if I knew that human sewage had been used recently,
I wouldn't eat a salad.

This is also the major cause of
stomach upsets in the Mediterranean countries because, in many areas,
they spray growing crops with the diluted contents of septic tanks.



Precisely.

--
Anton


  #23   Report Post  
Old 11-01-2003, 07:06 PM
anton
 
Posts: n/a
Default Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?


JennyC wrote in message ...

[sewage}

Could not resist


:-)))

looking for info on the web and found the following :

The Global Ideas Bank http://www.globalideasbank.org/BOV/BV-339.HTML
has fascinating info about a UK project to turn human sewage into
fertilizer :~)

And http://members.aol.com/wwanglia/framesf.htm has a whole site
devoted to the subject of "How Safe is Food from Human Sewage?"



Amazing stuff. All human life is on the web, isn't it?


It seems as if the UK is already supplying s**t to farmers..........



There's no doubt about that.

Happy New Year
--
Anton


  #24   Report Post  
Old 11-01-2003, 07:49 PM
Rodger Whitlock
 
Posts: n/a
Default Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?

On Sat, 11 Jan 2003 10:07:41 +0000 (UTC), "anton"
wrote:

...we (or most of us) are human, and a possible infection
route for many human diseases & parasites is via sewage.
I appreciate that the micro-organisms/ spores etc disappear
with time, but I don't know how much time. Eating things
which you eat raw from ground which has been freshly
flooded with a sample of everyone's faeces from miles
around sounds to me like a dopey idea. I hope that we
can agree on that. So the question then is- what length of
time would you leave before cropping such ground with
a crop that you eat raw? I'd choose a couple of years-
you choose what you like.


Here in Victoria, A few gardening enthusiasts routinely put their
family's fecal waste into the compost. One is a medical doctor,
who has investigated the safety of the practice.

AIUI, if you put human feces on the vegetable garden, the produce
should not be served to anyone outside the immediate family. A
secondary rule was that if anyone was sick, their wastes went
down the toilet in the "normal" way.


Two other data points:

I was born in South Carolina. Whenever my family travelled to
visit relatives there, my mother warned me to never go outside
unless I was wearing shoes. (As a youth, I was the original
barefoot boy, and to this day often wander around outside with no
shoes on.) Her concern was hookworm infection, which is spread by
fecal contamination and can be acquired through the soles of the
feet.

Hookworm is a fairly nasty parasite that completely saps one's
strength, and was particularly prevalent among poor rural blacks.
It thrives in warm climates such as that of the American
southeast. I doubt it would be a serious problem in the colder
climate of the UK, but it offers a very real example of the kind
of trouble improper disposal of feces can result in.

Second data point: statements that the use of "nightsoil" to
fertilize fields in China leads to the death of hundreds of
thousands of people a year there. Yes, it has kept the soil in
good heart for millenia, but it also spreads any number of
diseases and parasites.


A spill of raw sewage, though unpleasant, is nothing to freak out
about. But neither is it something to treat casually.

--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada
  #25   Report Post  
Old 11-01-2003, 09:35 PM
MC Emily
 
Posts: n/a
Default Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?

JennyC wrote:

It seems as if the UK is already supplying s**t to farmers..........


Absolutely!

Jaqy (sheep farmer)




  #26   Report Post  
Old 12-01-2003, 12:26 AM
Alan Holmes
 
Posts: n/a
Default Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?


"anton" wrote in message
...

Alan Holmes wrote in message ...

"anton" wrote in message
...

During the floods of last week, Thames water sewage plants couldn't
cope...and the backlog of untreated sewage filled the pipes, until it
burst
up and out of the drains... right into our back garden.

snip

Mmm. I can't say I'd fancy any salads or strawberries
off that ground for a year or two.


Why not, would you refuse to eat any of those things
following an application of horse manure?


I have no problem eating the things that I and others have
grown in ground to which horse manure is applied- (though
when I've used this then it isn't fresh).

But we (or most of us) are human, and a possible infection
route for many human diseases & parasites is via sewage.
I appreciate that the micro-organisms/ spores etc disappear
with time, but I don't know how much time. Eating things
which you eat raw from ground which has been freshly
flooded with a sample of everyone's faeces from miles
around sounds to me like a dopey idea. I hope that we
can agree on that. So the question then is- what length of
time would you leave before cropping such ground with
a crop that you eat raw? I'd choose a couple of years-
you choose what you like.


And the spores of which organisms will still be viable?


The manager at the sewage works in Isleworth used to to demonstrate
how clean the effluent was when it left the works by drinking the water
as it left the works!

Alan
--
Reply to alan(at)windsor-berks(dot)freeserve(dot)co(dot)uk



  #27   Report Post  
Old 12-01-2003, 09:41 AM
JennyC
 
Posts: n/a
Default Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?


"anton" wrote
JennyC wrote in message ...

[sewage}

Could not resist


:-)))


Oi you, bit of overzealous snipping going on there :~)

looking for info on the web and found the following :

The Global Ideas Bank

http://www.globalideasbank.org/BOV/BV-339.HTML
has fascinating info about a UK project to turn human sewage into
fertilizer :~)

And http://members.aol.com/wwanglia/framesf.htm has a whole site
devoted to the subject of "How Safe is Food from Human Sewage?"



Amazing stuff. All human life is on the web, isn't it?


Yep, that's why I love it so..........

Happy New Year
Anton


Returned :~)
Jenny


  #28   Report Post  
Old 12-01-2003, 09:45 AM
JennyC
 
Posts: n/a
Default Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?


"Alan Holmes" wrote
snip

The manager at the sewage works in Isleworth used to to demonstrate
how clean the effluent was when it left the works by drinking the

water
as it left the works!
Alan


Surely we all do that ? Water from the tap has probably been recycled
through someone gut several times :~)
Jenny


  #29   Report Post  
Old 13-01-2003, 08:32 PM
Jon Rouse
 
Posts: n/a
Default Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?

In article , James Collings
writes
During the floods of last week, Thames water sewage plants couldn't
cope...and the backlog of untreated sewage filled the pipes, until it burst
up and out of the drains... right into our back garden.


Question: Will the sewage adversely affect the lawn, or the Apple tree
(eaters), or the large clematis that it soaked? If this is not a bad
thing... will the "clean-up" with powerful detergents do more harm than
good?


Isn't sewage supposed to be high in heavy metals, or does that depend on
the local industry?

John
--
Jon Rouse
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