Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

During the floods of last week, Thames water sewage plants couldn't
cope...and the backlog of untreated sewage filled the pipes, until it burst
up and out of the drains... right into our back garden.

The result was 3 days of 6in deep sewage filled water covering a large
expanse of lawn and patio. Luckily none got in the house, but it is the
garden that I am concerned about.

After 3 days, the residue of sewage remained (the water soaked away), and 1
week later I am stil waiting for the "professional" clean-up of this toxic
stuff.

Question: Will the sewage adversely affect the lawn, or the Apple tree
(eaters), or the large clematis that it soaked? If this is not a bad
thing... will the "clean-up" with powerful detergents do more harm than
good?

Help?

James

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

In article ,
James Collings wrote:
During the floods of last week, Thames water sewage plants couldn't
cope...and the backlog of untreated sewage filled the pipes, until it burst
up and out of the drains... right into our back garden.

The result was 3 days of 6in deep sewage filled water covering a large
expanse of lawn and patio. Luckily none got in the house, but it is the
garden that I am concerned about.

After 3 days, the residue of sewage remained (the water soaked away), and 1
week later I am stil waiting for the "professional" clean-up of this toxic
stuff.

Question: Will the sewage adversely affect the lawn, or the Apple tree
(eaters), or the large clematis that it soaked? If this is not a bad
thing... will the "clean-up" with powerful detergents do more harm than
good?

If it is domestic sewage, and you don't use too many of the most toxic
household chemicals, then it will do little harm. Effectively, it will
break down as the weather warms up and be a general fertilisation. You
may well get localised damage from burning and smothering, but probably
no more.

There is a significant chance that the clean-up will do massive damage,
depending on what chemicals and techniques they use. I have no expertise
here, but I would be VERY cautious before allowing such a thing to be
done to my garden - even for free.

Why do you think that it is toxic? Human excrement isn't particularly
toxic, even if you do eat at MacDonalds.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren,
University of Cambridge Computing Service,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England.
Email:
Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

Nick Maclaren wrote in message ...
In article ,
James Collings wrote:
During the floods of last week, Thames water sewage plants couldn't
cope...and the backlog of untreated sewage filled the pipes, until it
burst
up and out of the drains... right into our back garden.

The result was 3 days of 6in deep sewage filled water covering a large
expanse of lawn and patio. Luckily none got in the house, but it is the
garden that I am concerned about.

After 3 days, the residue of sewage remained (the water soaked away), and
1
week later I am stil waiting for the "professional" clean-up of this toxic
stuff.

Question: Will the sewage adversely affect the lawn, or the Apple tree
(eaters), or the large clematis that it soaked? If this is not a bad
thing... will the "clean-up" with powerful detergents do more harm than
good?

If it is domestic sewage, and you don't use too many of the most toxic
household chemicals, then it will do little harm. Effectively, it will
break down as the weather warms up and be a general fertilisation. You
may well get localised damage from burning and smothering, but probably
no more.


Mmm. I can't say I'd fancy any salads or strawberries
off that ground for a year or two.

There is a significant chance that the clean-up will do massive damage,
depending on what chemicals and techniques they use. I have no expertise
here, but I would be VERY cautious before allowing such a thing to be
done to my garden - even for free.


How about the flooding itself, as opposed to the sewage?
3 days sounds like probably too little to have killed off
many of the roots, but I don't know.

Why do you think that it is toxic? Human excrement isn't particularly
toxic, even if you do eat at MacDonalds.


Toxic maybe isn' the word I'd use, but aren't there a variety of parasites &
diseases present in raw sewage?

--
Anton

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

In article ,
anton wrote:

Mmm. I can't say I'd fancy any salads or strawberries
off that ground for a year or two.

I assume that you eat nothing but hydroponically grown salads? Not
doing so for a month or two is rational, but a year or two isn't.

How about the flooding itself, as opposed to the sewage?
3 days sounds like probably too little to have killed off
many of the roots, but I don't know.

It could have killed some, especially if the deposited material
has obstructed draining. But that is no worse than flooding by
river water. And there is nothing that can be done about that, except
that having the clean-up squad compress the ground will make a bad
situation worse.

Toxic maybe isn' the word I'd use, but aren't there a variety of parasites &
diseases present in raw sewage?

Not usually. Where do you think they would come from? If the people
aren't infected, then there won't be such things. This is the UK in 2002,
not where I grew up (and where that concern WAS justified).

In practice, there are likely to be a fair number of borderline organisms
(e.g. salmonella), but almost all will be destroyed very quickly by oxygen
and decomposition processes. The only things that it is worth worrying
about are ones with resistant spores etc., and those are less likely in
human sewage than in domestic and wild animal excrement.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren,
University of Cambridge Computing Service,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England.
Email:
Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

Victoria Clare wrote:
I think that the apple tree and clematis would be delighted with the
unexpected treat, but that a cleanup of the lawn to remove any
unpleasant flotsam might be worth having if there was a lot of it.

I would probably just give the lawn a once-over with a stiff brush
once things had dried out, myself, but there is the psychological
factor: if the OP will be sitting out on that lawn next summer
sipping tea, he might well feel happier about it if it had the
detergent treatment.

Hi

I have to agree with Nick. Our septic tank drains out into the river but if
the river is high the tank backs up and floods into the garden, where we
also have an eating apple tree. However, our views are perhaps a little
different from some people's. We have a farm and in one way or another are
in *muck* every day. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the sewage
having been on the garden and we've never suffered any damage as a result.
With the wet weather we're having at the moment it's more than likely that
it will soon be broken down and washed through the ground. It's not a toxic
hazard although I wouldn't recommend letting children play in it!! At the
end of the day, it's an organic material and, like Nick said, the cleaning
that has been offered will do far more damage that the original fertilising
it's had. Personally, I would leave it alone and not worry about eating
apples from the tree.

Jaqy

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

"MC Emily" wrote in
:

I have to agree with Nick. Our septic tank drains out into the river
but if the river is high the tank backs up and floods into the garden,
where we also have an eating apple tree. However, our views are
perhaps a little different from some people's. We have a farm and in
one way or another are in *muck* every day.

Well, sewage I don't mind too much. But old tampons, sanitary towels,
condoms, cotton buds, etc, though no doubt not particularly dangerous,
strike me as not a lot of fun to gather and dispose of.

As you have a septic tank, you probably don't flush that stuff, but the
detritus from not-long-enough long sea outfalls suggests a lot of people
do. The stuff that comes ashore at Instow beach from sewage has included
syringes before now.

If that is an issue in this case, I can see why one might consider the
offer of a free cleanup.

Victoria

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

"MC Emily" wrote in message
...
Victoria Clare wrote:
I would probably just give the lawn a once-over with a stiff brush
once things had dried out, myself, but there is the psychological
factor: if the OP will be sitting out on that lawn next summer
sipping tea, he might well feel happier about it if it had the
detergent treatment.

.......
it will soon be broken down and washed through the ground. It's not a
toxic
hazard although I wouldn't recommend letting children play in it!! At the
end of the day, it's an organic material and, like Nick said, the cleaning
that has been offered will do far more damage that the original
fertilising
it's had. Personally, I would leave it alone and not worry about eating
apples from the tree.

Jaqy

As the OP I thought I join in again (I dunno.. you post a question, pop out
to London for the day.. come back and find a nice long thread already
developed :-))

The request for a clean-up comes because the sewage covered the whole patio
area upto the back door and our daughter (3yo) play house. I didn't want
her going out into it... but with Snow imminent she was going to want to be
out there building snowmen etc... (and you don't want to be rolling up a
snowman and find out that he has "ready made" buttons, eyes, and nose!!!!).
So the clean up was required.

Secondly I was concerned about the "burning" issue on the plants. Composted
materials (old manure, waste from a septic tank etc) I know is excellent on
plants.. but in its "raw" form (still recognisable!) I wondered if it might
be a bit "strong". I am heartened by your answers so far. Normally I too
wouldn't be bothered about a clean-up (being only 1 generation from
farmers!) but with our little one I wanted to be safe for her... hence the
question that the detergents will be harmful to the plants... I guess (based
on the replies), that it might be, but that it is a risk I will have to
take.

Thanks for the help, to date.

Subsequent question.

Once the clean-up occurs (this weekend I am now told), Is there anything I
can "give" to the grass, tree, clemetis to help them cope? (bearing in mind
the time of year etc...)

James

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

Why do you think that it is toxic? Human excrement isn't particularly
toxic, even if you do eat at MacDonalds.

But what if it gets into an open wound? I read that the Viet Cong used
human faeces as a very effective poison against the Americans.

Art

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

In article ,
James Collings wrote:

The request for a clean-up comes because the sewage covered the whole patio
area upto the back door and our daughter (3yo) play house. I didn't want
her going out into it... but with Snow imminent she was going to want to be
out there building snowmen etc... (and you don't want to be rolling up a
snowman and find out that he has "ready made" buttons, eyes, and nose!!!!).
So the clean up was required.

I agree that it is a bit distasteful! An immediately cleanup would
certainly help with that, but even a short period of warm, wet weather
will have started most of the sewage breaking down.

Secondly I was concerned about the "burning" issue on the plants. Composted
materials (old manure, waste from a septic tank etc) I know is excellent on
plants.. but in its "raw" form (still recognisable!) I wondered if it might
be a bit "strong". I am heartened by your answers so far. Normally I too
wouldn't be bothered about a clean-up (being only 1 generation from
farmers!) but with our little one I wanted to be safe for her... hence the
question that the detergents will be harmful to the plants... I guess (based
on the replies), that it might be, but that it is a risk I will have to
take.

Also be a bit careful with regard to your daughter. That sort of
detergent can be both corrosive (i.e. it might cause permanent
blindness if it gets in her eyes) and fairly toxic. It depends what
they use. For comparison, typical washing up liquid is quite safe
as shampoo or even drunk in small quantities, but machine washing
powder/liquid is not.

In your position, I might (or might not) get some of the garden
cleaned up (or might do it myself), but would definitely not allow
industrial detergents to be used. That might be prejudice, but I
don't like that sort of thing.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren,
University of Cambridge Computing Service,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England.
Email:
Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

In article ,
Carol Russell wrote:
Why do you think that it is toxic? Human excrement isn't particularly
toxic, even if you do eat at MacDonalds.

But what if it gets into an open wound? I read that the Viet Cong used
human faeces as a very effective poison against the Americans.

Don't believe half of what you read! As with animal excrement,
getting it in an open wound can cause infection - but not all that
much more than earth and probably no more than industrial detergents.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren,
University of Cambridge Computing Service,
New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England.
Email:
Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

Victoria Clare wrote:

Well, sewage I don't mind too much. But old tampons, sanitary towels,
condoms, cotton buds, etc, though no doubt not particularly dangerous,
strike me as not a lot of fun to gather and dispose of.

I have to agree with you here, Victoria, but personally I would rather
collect these 'by hand', suitably gloved of course (!), and leave it at
that, rather than have an army of people trampling of my sodden lawn
spraying god-knows-what around. Of course, some people's stomachs are
stronger than others also!!

As you have a septic tank, you probably don't flush that stuff, but
the detritus from not-long-enough long sea outfalls suggests a lot of
people do. The stuff that comes ashore at Instow beach from sewage
has included syringes before now.

You're right, we don't flush that kind of stuff and I can sympathise with
you as regards short sea outfalls as I come from Blackpool. You don't get
beaches much filthier than that!!! The smell in summer's wonderful, isn't
it ;o)

If that is an issue in this case, I can see why one might consider the
offer of a free cleanup.

I think a compromise might be to have the council, or whoever, collect what
solids they can and leave it at that. The OP was concerned about plant
damage and I think much more than that would result in definite damage.

Jaqy

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

James Collings wrote:

As the OP I thought I join in again (I dunno.. you post a question,
pop out to London for the day.. come back and find a nice long thread
already developed :-))

LOL. It must be the subject matter that's attracting the attention!!

The request for a clean-up comes because the sewage covered the whole
patio area upto the back door and our daughter (3yo) play house. I
didn't want her going out into it... but with Snow imminent she was
going to want to be out there building snowmen etc... (and you don't
want to be rolling up a snowman and find out that he has "ready made"
buttons, eyes, and nose!!!!). So the clean up was required.

Since your worried about your plants also, you might be better to hose the
patio down and then spray with a *good* disinfectant, such as Zal Perax II,
at the appropriate rate. This will do less damage than detergents. I
understand that your daughter will want to play in the snow, my kids used to
love the snow, and if you clean and disinfect the patio she will have an
area that you know if 'safe'. As for the garden itself, I would stay off it
as much as possible. It's probably sodden anyway and will poach easily.
Have the council pick up the solids and then leave it. Anything else that's
left will very quickly disappear.

Secondly I was concerned about the "burning" issue on the plants.
Composted materials (old manure, waste from a septic tank etc) I know
is excellent on plants.. but in its "raw" form (still recognisable!)
I wondered if it might be a bit "strong".

Even septic tanks have 'new' stuff in them!! We've had recognisable stuff
coming out many times and, to be honest, that part of the garden has the
greenest grass!!!

I am heartened by your answers so far.

Good. I don't think this is going to turn out to be a huge disaster. In
fact, you might find that your grass will be much improved by it.

Normally I too wouldn't be bothered about a
clean-up (being only 1 generation from farmers!) but with our little
one I wanted to be safe for her... hence the question that the
detergents will be harmful to the plants... I guess (based on the
replies), that it might be, but that it is a risk I will have to take.

Not necessarily. Think about what I've said above about the patio area.
You *can* have the best of both worlds here - a 'safe' place for your
daughter and snowmen and a fertilised garden!

Once the clean-up occurs (this weekend I am now told), Is there
anything I can "give" to the grass, tree, clemetis to help them cope?
(bearing in mind the time of year etc...)

Hopefully, this won't be necessary :o)

Jaqy

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

Not usually. Where do you think they would come from? If the people
aren't infected, then there won't be such things. This is the UK in 2002,
not where I grew up (and where that concern WAS justified).

The toilets on planes visiting Heathrow are emptied there and go into the
Thames Water system. The sewage therefore MAY contain organisms from
anywhere in the world.

Howard Neil

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

In article , James Collings
writes
During the floods of last week, Thames water sewage plants couldn't
cope...and the backlog of untreated sewage filled the pipes, until it burst
up and out of the drains... right into our back garden.

The result was 3 days of 6in deep sewage filled water covering a large
expanse of lawn and patio. Luckily none got in the house, but it is the
garden that I am concerned about.

After 3 days, the residue of sewage remained (the water soaked away), and 1
week later I am stil waiting for the "professional" clean-up of this toxic
stuff.

Question: Will the sewage adversely affect the lawn, or the Apple tree
(eaters), or the large clematis that it soaked? If this is not a bad
thing... will the "clean-up" with powerful detergents do more harm than
good?

Help?

James


There are various sites on the web with (human) health info. http://www.
fao.org/docrep/W5367E/w5367e04.htm is concerned with the deliberate use
of waste water in agriculture, and gives survival times for the bugs
(most a month, but one brand of intestinal nematode / roundworm 'many
months').

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/elcosh/docs...3/d000283.html tells
you to use protective equipment if you work in sewage plants, and what
you will get if you don't.

I was going to pass on anecdotal evidence about sewage workers (and
farmers) having acquired immunity but http://www.spokanecounty.org/healt
h/EHS/brochures/biologicalHazards.htm claims the lower infection rates
in experience sewage workers is job experience rather than immunity.
--
A. G. McDowell

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...
In article ,
James Collings wrote:
During the floods of last week, Thames water sewage plants couldn't
cope...and the backlog of untreated sewage filled the pipes, until it
burst
up and out of the drains... right into our back garden.

The result was 3 days of 6in deep sewage filled water covering a large
expanse of lawn and patio. Luckily none got in the house, but it is the
garden that I am concerned about.

After 3 days, the residue of sewage remained (the water soaked away), and
1
week later I am stil waiting for the "professional" clean-up of this
toxic
stuff.

Question: Will the sewage adversely affect the lawn, or the Apple tree
(eaters), or the large clematis that it soaked? If this is not a bad
thing... will the "clean-up" with powerful detergents do more harm than
good?

If it is domestic sewage, and you don't use too many of the most toxic
household chemicals, then it will do little harm. Effectively, it will
break down as the weather warms up and be a general fertilisation. You
may well get localised damage from burning and smothering, but probably
no more.

There is a significant chance that the clean-up will do massive damage,
depending on what chemicals and techniques they use. I have no expertise
here, but I would be VERY cautious before allowing such a thing to be
done to my garden - even for free.

Why do you think that it is toxic? Human excrement isn't particularly
toxic, even if you do eat at MacDonalds.

Slough sewage works distribute some stuff called cinagro!

Which is just sewage after treatment.

So I would say if it isn't causing any other problems leave it alone.

Alan
--
Reply to alan(at)windsor-berks(dot)freeserve(dot)co(dot)uk

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

"anton" wrote in message
...

Nick Maclaren wrote in message ...
In article ,
James Collings wrote:
During the floods of last week, Thames water sewage plants couldn't
cope...and the backlog of untreated sewage filled the pipes, until it
burst
up and out of the drains... right into our back garden.

The result was 3 days of 6in deep sewage filled water covering a large
expanse of lawn and patio. Luckily none got in the house, but it is the
garden that I am concerned about.

After 3 days, the residue of sewage remained (the water soaked away),
and
1
week later I am stil waiting for the "professional" clean-up of this
toxic
stuff.

Question: Will the sewage adversely affect the lawn, or the Apple tree
(eaters), or the large clematis that it soaked? If this is not a bad
thing... will the "clean-up" with powerful detergents do more harm than
good?

If it is domestic sewage, and you don't use too many of the most toxic
household chemicals, then it will do little harm. Effectively, it will
break down as the weather warms up and be a general fertilisation. You
may well get localised damage from burning and smothering, but probably
no more.

Mmm. I can't say I'd fancy any salads or strawberries
off that ground for a year or two.

Why not, would you refuse to eat any of those things following an
application of horse manure?

Toxic maybe isn' the word I'd use, but aren't there a variety of parasites
&
diseases present in raw sewage?

But when it dries out it will no longer be 'raw sewage'.

Alan
--
Reply to alan(at)windsor-berks(dot)freeserve(dot)co(dot)uk

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

You'll probably get a good crop of self-sown tomato plants
ted

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"Nick Maclaren" wrote in message
...
In article ,
James Collings wrote:
During the floods of last week, Thames water sewage plants couldn't
cope...and the backlog of untreated sewage filled the pipes, until it
burst
up and out of the drains... right into our back garden.

The result was 3 days of 6in deep sewage filled water covering a large
expanse of lawn and patio. Luckily none got in the house, but it is
the
garden that I am concerned about.

After 3 days, the residue of sewage remained (the water soaked away),
and
1
week later I am stil waiting for the "professional" clean-up of this
toxic
stuff.

Question: Will the sewage adversely affect the lawn, or the Apple tree
(eaters), or the large clematis that it soaked? If this is not a bad
thing... will the "clean-up" with powerful detergents do more harm than
good?

If it is domestic sewage, and you don't use too many of the most toxic
household chemicals, then it will do little harm. Effectively, it will
break down as the weather warms up and be a general fertilisation. You
may well get localised damage from burning and smothering, but probably
no more.

There is a significant chance that the clean-up will do massive damage,
depending on what chemicals and techniques they use. I have no
expertise
here, but I would be VERY cautious before allowing such a thing to be
done to my garden - even for free.

Why do you think that it is toxic? Human excrement isn't particularly
toxic, even if you do eat at MacDonalds.

Slough sewage works distribute some stuff called cinagro!

Which is just sewage after treatment.

So I would say if it isn't causing any other problems leave it alone.

Alan
--
Reply to alan(at)windsor-berks(dot)freeserve(dot)co(dot)uk

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

Alan Holmes wrote in message ...

"anton" wrote in message
...

During the floods of last week, Thames water sewage plants couldn't
cope...and the backlog of untreated sewage filled the pipes, until it
burst
up and out of the drains... right into our back garden.

snip

Mmm. I can't say I'd fancy any salads or strawberries
off that ground for a year or two.

Why not, would you refuse to eat any of those things
following an application of horse manure?

I have no problem eating the things that I and others have
grown in ground to which horse manure is applied- (though
when I've used this then it isn't fresh).

But we (or most of us) are human, and a possible infection
route for many human diseases & parasites is via sewage.
I appreciate that the micro-organisms/ spores etc disappear
with time, but I don't know how much time. Eating things
which you eat raw from ground which has been freshly
flooded with a sample of everyone's faeces from miles
around sounds to me like a dopey idea. I hope that we
can agree on that. So the question then is- what length of
time would you leave before cropping such ground with
a crop that you eat raw? I'd choose a couple of years-
you choose what you like.

Toxic maybe isn' the word I'd use, but aren't there a
variety of parasites &
diseases present in raw sewage?

But when it dries out it will no longer be 'raw sewage'.


And the spores of which organisms will stillbe viable?

--
Anton

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

"anton" wrote
Alan Holmes wrote in message ...
During the floods of last week, Thames water sewage plants
couldn't
cope...and the backlog of untreated sewage filled the pipes,
until it
burst up and out of the drains... right into our back garden.

snip

But when it dries out it will no longer be 'raw sewage'.

And the spores of which organisms will stillbe viable?
Anton

Could not resist looking for info on the web and found the following :

The Global Ideas Bank http://www.globalideasbank.org/BOV/BV-339.HTML
has fascinating info about a UK project to turn human sewage into
fertilizer :~)

And http://members.aol.com/wwanglia/framesf.htm has a whole site
devoted to the subject of "How Safe is Food from Human Sewage?"

It seems as if the UK is already supplying s**t to farmers..........
Jenny

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

anton wrote in message ...

I have no problem eating the things that I and others have
grown in ground to which horse manure is applied- (though
when I've used this then it isn't fresh).

But we (or most of us) are human, and a possible infection
route for many human diseases & parasites is via sewage.
I appreciate that the micro-organisms/ spores etc disappear
with time, but I don't know how much time. Eating things
which you eat raw from ground which has been freshly
flooded with a sample of everyone's faeces from miles
around sounds to me like a dopey idea. I hope that we
can agree on that. So the question then is- what length of
time would you leave before cropping such ground with
a crop that you eat raw? I'd choose a couple of years-
you choose what you like.

My house has a septic tank for drainage and a few years ago I was
flooded, this obviously caused the septic tank to fill and overflow. I
was warned to be careful if water got into the house (it did but only by
soaking up through the concrete floor. All carpets had to be destroyed
and replaced by the insurance company but nothing else was done. When or
septic tank is emptied I use a local farm contractor, who empties it and
it is then used to spread on the land that grows the crops you eat.
There is no danger as the crops cannot take up bacteria, but it is
always a good idea to wash all fruit and veg unless you know exactly
where and how they have been grown. This is also the major cause of
stomach upsets in the Mediterranean countries because, in many areas,
they spray growing crops with the diluted contents of septic tanks.

Mike
www.british-naturism.org.uk

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

Michael Berridge wrote in message ...

anton wrote in message ...

I have no problem eating the things that I and others have
grown in ground to which horse manure is applied- (though
when I've used this then it isn't fresh).

But we (or most of us) are human, and a possible infection
route for many human diseases & parasites is via sewage.
I appreciate that the micro-organisms/ spores etc disappear
with time, but I don't know how much time. Eating things
which you eat raw from ground which has been freshly
flooded with a sample of everyone's faeces from miles
around sounds to me like a dopey idea. I hope that we
can agree on that. So the question then is- what length of
time would you leave before cropping such ground with
a crop that you eat raw? I'd choose a couple of years-
you choose what you like.

My house has a septic tank for drainage and a few years ago I was
flooded, this obviously caused the septic tank to fill and overflow. I
was warned to be careful if water got into the house (it did but only by
soaking up through the concrete floor. All carpets had to be destroyed
and replaced by the insurance company but nothing else was done. When or
septic tank is emptied I use a local farm contractor, who empties it and
it is then used to spread on the land that grows the crops you eat.
There is no danger as the crops cannot take up bacteria,

That's clearly not what I was on about. I have no worries
about apples- but salad crops grow near the ground and are liable to be
splashed from the ground by rain or irrigation.
That's not 'taking up' bacteria.

but it is always a good idea to wash all fruit and veg
unless you know exactly
where and how they have been grown.

and, if I knew that human sewage had been used recently,
I wouldn't eat a salad.

This is also the major cause of
stomach upsets in the Mediterranean countries because, in many areas,
they spray growing crops with the diluted contents of septic tanks.


Precisely.

--
Anton

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

JennyC wrote in message ...

[sewage}

Could not resist

:-)))

looking for info on the web and found the following :

The Global Ideas Bank http://www.globalideasbank.org/BOV/BV-339.HTML
has fascinating info about a UK project to turn human sewage into
fertilizer :~)

And http://members.aol.com/wwanglia/framesf.htm has a whole site
devoted to the subject of "How Safe is Food from Human Sewage?"


Amazing stuff. All human life is on the web, isn't it?


It seems as if the UK is already supplying s**t to farmers..........


There's no doubt about that.

Happy New Year
--
Anton

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

On Sat, 11 Jan 2003 10:07:41 +0000 (UTC), "anton"
wrote:

...we (or most of us) are human, and a possible infection
route for many human diseases & parasites is via sewage.
I appreciate that the micro-organisms/ spores etc disappear
with time, but I don't know how much time. Eating things
which you eat raw from ground which has been freshly
flooded with a sample of everyone's faeces from miles
around sounds to me like a dopey idea. I hope that we
can agree on that. So the question then is- what length of
time would you leave before cropping such ground with
a crop that you eat raw? I'd choose a couple of years-
you choose what you like.

Here in Victoria, A few gardening enthusiasts routinely put their
family's fecal waste into the compost. One is a medical doctor,
who has investigated the safety of the practice.

AIUI, if you put human feces on the vegetable garden, the produce
should not be served to anyone outside the immediate family. A
secondary rule was that if anyone was sick, their wastes went
down the toilet in the "normal" way.


Two other data points:

I was born in South Carolina. Whenever my family travelled to
visit relatives there, my mother warned me to never go outside
unless I was wearing shoes. (As a youth, I was the original
barefoot boy, and to this day often wander around outside with no
shoes on.) Her concern was hookworm infection, which is spread by
fecal contamination and can be acquired through the soles of the
feet.

Hookworm is a fairly nasty parasite that completely saps one's
strength, and was particularly prevalent among poor rural blacks.
It thrives in warm climates such as that of the American
southeast. I doubt it would be a serious problem in the colder
climate of the UK, but it offers a very real example of the kind
of trouble improper disposal of feces can result in.

Second data point: statements that the use of "nightsoil" to
fertilize fields in China leads to the death of hundreds of
thousands of people a year there. Yes, it has kept the soil in
good heart for millenia, but it also spreads any number of
diseases and parasites.


A spill of raw sewage, though unpleasant, is nothing to freak out
about. But neither is it something to treat casually.

--
Rodger Whitlock
Victoria, British Columbia, Canada

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

JennyC wrote:

It seems as if the UK is already supplying s**t to farmers..........

Absolutely!

Jaqy (sheep farmer)

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

"anton" wrote in message
...

Alan Holmes wrote in message ...

"anton" wrote in message
...

During the floods of last week, Thames water sewage plants couldn't
cope...and the backlog of untreated sewage filled the pipes, until it
burst
up and out of the drains... right into our back garden.

snip

Mmm. I can't say I'd fancy any salads or strawberries
off that ground for a year or two.

Why not, would you refuse to eat any of those things
following an application of horse manure?

I have no problem eating the things that I and others have
grown in ground to which horse manure is applied- (though
when I've used this then it isn't fresh).

But we (or most of us) are human, and a possible infection
route for many human diseases & parasites is via sewage.
I appreciate that the micro-organisms/ spores etc disappear
with time, but I don't know how much time. Eating things
which you eat raw from ground which has been freshly
flooded with a sample of everyone's faeces from miles
around sounds to me like a dopey idea. I hope that we
can agree on that. So the question then is- what length of
time would you leave before cropping such ground with
a crop that you eat raw? I'd choose a couple of years-
you choose what you like.

And the spores of which organisms will still be viable?

The manager at the sewage works in Isleworth used to to demonstrate
how clean the effluent was when it left the works by drinking the water
as it left the works!

Alan
--
Reply to alan(at)windsor-berks(dot)freeserve(dot)co(dot)uk

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

"anton" wrote
JennyC wrote in message ...

[sewage}

Could not resist

:-)))

Oi you, bit of overzealous snipping going on there :~)

looking for info on the web and found the following :

The Global Ideas Bank
http://www.globalideasbank.org/BOV/BV-339.HTML
has fascinating info about a UK project to turn human sewage into
fertilizer :~)

And http://members.aol.com/wwanglia/framesf.htm has a whole site
devoted to the subject of "How Safe is Food from Human Sewage?"


Amazing stuff. All human life is on the web, isn't it?

Yep, that's why I love it so..........

Happy New Year
Anton

Returned :~)
Jenny

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

"Alan Holmes" wrote
snip
The manager at the sewage works in Isleworth used to to demonstrate
how clean the effluent was when it left the works by drinking the
water
as it left the works!
Alan

Surely we all do that ? Water from the tap has probably been recycled
through someone gut several times :~)
Jenny

Raw sewage in the garden... problem or blessing?
 

In article , James Collings
writes
During the floods of last week, Thames water sewage plants couldn't
cope...and the backlog of untreated sewage filled the pipes, until it burst
up and out of the drains... right into our back garden.

Question: Will the sewage adversely affect the lawn, or the Apple tree
(eaters), or the large clematis that it soaked? If this is not a bad
thing... will the "clean-up" with powerful detergents do more harm than
good?

Isn't sewage supposed to be high in heavy metals, or does that depend on
the local industry?

John
--
Jon Rouse