"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"John Edgar" wrote in message
ups.com...
In what way is it illegal to kill vermin by drowning them? One
of
the
best ways I would have thought. I believe it is illegal to drown
humans, but grey squirrels?

It was technically made illegal by virtue of the Wild Mammals
Protection
Act
1996 which included drowning amongst the list of abuses outlawed
from
30th
April 1997. I don't know whether the RSPCA has actually brought
charges
against anyone for drowning a wild mammal, though, or if they
have,
whether
the perpetrator was convicted.

It is the method recomended by the Forestry Commistion for the
disposal
of
this type of vermin.


Is it? Do you have a reference for that? Did you perhaps receive
that
advice
prior to April 1997?

Please enlighten me, what happened on April 1997.


The Wild Mammals Protection Act 1996 came into force, as previously
stated.
I was speculating it might be possible, that, as a consequence of
deliberate
drowning being listed as an abuse, the FC may have amended its position
regarding despatch of grey squirrels by drowning.

I have asked the RSPCA whether, in their opinion, drowning of grey
squirrels
is a humane form of killing live trapped squirrels, and their response
was
that the squirrels should be despatched either by shooting or by a
lethal
blow to the head.

Have any of them ever tried to get one into a position where one could
strike
a lethal blow to the head?

I don't know. However, if you consult the FC's current advice on grey
squirrel control in woodlands, it describes what they advocate as the
correct procedure in some detail.


And what is their view of killing rats and mice?


And what is the point of that question?

That they are all vermin.

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
k...
The message
from "BAC" contains these words:

You are advocating drowning, which does not appear to be advocated by
the Forestry Commission in any of its currently applicable documents
referring to grey squirrel control.

I think the most applicable may be
http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/fcpn004.pdf/$FILE/fcpn004.pdf
specific to the control of grey squirrels in woodlands, which, in
respect of
live trapping, recommends that the squirrels be removed from the trap
and
killed with a blow to the head from a blunt instrument, or taken to a
vet
for humane destruction. It goes so far as to say no other form of
killing of
live trapped squirrels should be attempted (and that includes shooting
them).

I'd recommend that the twerp who dreamt-up the blunt instrument
treatment should be given a squirrel and a blunt instrument, and filmed.

And how much do they think a vet would charge per squirrel?

The advice is pure cloud-cuckooland, and worthy of the worst excesses of
the so-called 'animal rights' lobby.

Well, that's the Forestry Commission for you (emphatically not an AR
organisation), the same organisation which Alan cited as authority for
drowning the animals, which is of course the main reason I've referred to
them, since he's hoist on his own petard, so to speak.


I don't believe in allowing any animal to suffer just for the
convenience of mankind, but there are limits to altruism. If ever I have
to dispatch a squirrel in a trap, it will be shot.

If I had a gun this may be the method I'd use, but I don't have a gun.


Which would be OK by the RSPCA and also with Environmental Health at some
Council websites I've seen. If you've read the Forestry Commission PDF
files
I've posted the links for, you'll have seen one reason they don't
recommend
shooting the squirrel in the trap is they're worried about a possible
ricochet causing human injury, so maybe it's 'Health and Safety' mania at
the root of it. I also noticed they are worried about use of steel pellets
in shooting in their woods because of the effect they can have on the
value
of timber.

Squirrels cause a great deal of damage other than to trees, they steal
things I grow for my own consumption, they kill birds by destroying the
eggs, they dig up plants, they break into peoples homes destroying
property, chewing through electricity cables putting human beings at
risk from electrocution and fire, both children and the elderly, as
well as all sorts of other problems.

But you wouldn't want to be bothered about things like that, would you?

It requires a little common sense.

I don't understand how you can ignore this destruction,

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"Kay" wrote in message
...
In article , Alan Holmes
writes

I follow a procedure which is laid down by a governmenr department
called
The Forestry Commission, if you have any problems with that procedure I
suggest instead of trying to slag people off here, you contact them and
put your concerns to them.

You are advocating drowning, which does not appear to be advocated by
the Forestry Commission in any of its currently applicable documents
referring to grey squirrel control.

What sensible/practical method do they now suggest is the way to despatch
them?

If you have read the pdf document linked to my response to Kay's message,
you will know the two methods recommended by the FC are either
administation
of a lethal blow to the head with a blunt instrument, or transportation to
a
vet for humane destruction. No mention of drowning, in fact they recommend
that no means of destruction other than those I've just mentioned should
be
attempted.

I cannot see how it is possible to get close enough to kill with a blow to
the head.

And who will be expected to pay the vet for despatching the vermin?

Should I take rats and mice to the vet to kill them?

Is this covered by the council tax?

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"John Edgar" wrote in message
ups.com...
In what way is it illegal to kill vermin by drowning them? One
of
the
best ways I would have thought. I believe it is illegal to
drown
humans, but grey squirrels?

It was technically made illegal by virtue of the Wild Mammals
Protection
Act
1996 which included drowning amongst the list of abuses
outlawed
from
30th
April 1997. I don't know whether the RSPCA has actually brought
charges
against anyone for drowning a wild mammal, though, or if they
have,
whether
the perpetrator was convicted.

It is the method recomended by the Forestry Commistion for the
disposal
of
this type of vermin.


Is it? Do you have a reference for that? Did you perhaps receive
that
advice
prior to April 1997?

Please enlighten me, what happened on April 1997.


The Wild Mammals Protection Act 1996 came into force, as previously
stated.
I was speculating it might be possible, that, as a consequence of
deliberate
drowning being listed as an abuse, the FC may have amended its
position
regarding despatch of grey squirrels by drowning.

I have asked the RSPCA whether, in their opinion, drowning of grey
squirrels
is a humane form of killing live trapped squirrels, and their
response
was
that the squirrels should be despatched either by shooting or by a
lethal
blow to the head.

Have any of them ever tried to get one into a position where one could
strike
a lethal blow to the head?

I don't know. However, if you consult the FC's current advice on grey
squirrel control in woodlands, it describes what they advocate as the
correct procedure in some detail.


And what is their view of killing rats and mice?


And what is the point of that question?

That they are all vermin.


So what? Are you implying that animals which are a nuisance (vermin) are
somehow undeserving of humane treatment?

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in
message
k...
The message
from "BAC" contains these words:

You are advocating drowning, which does not appear to be advocated
by
the Forestry Commission in any of its currently applicable
documents
referring to grey squirrel control.

I think the most applicable may be
http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/fcpn004.pdf/$FILE/fcpn004.pdf
specific to the control of grey squirrels in woodlands, which, in
respect of
live trapping, recommends that the squirrels be removed from the trap
and
killed with a blow to the head from a blunt instrument, or taken to a
vet
for humane destruction. It goes so far as to say no other form of
killing of
live trapped squirrels should be attempted (and that includes
shooting
them).

I'd recommend that the twerp who dreamt-up the blunt instrument
treatment should be given a squirrel and a blunt instrument, and
filmed.

And how much do they think a vet would charge per squirrel?

The advice is pure cloud-cuckooland, and worthy of the worst excesses
of
the so-called 'animal rights' lobby.

Well, that's the Forestry Commission for you (emphatically not an AR
organisation), the same organisation which Alan cited as authority for
drowning the animals, which is of course the main reason I've referred
to
them, since he's hoist on his own petard, so to speak.


I don't believe in allowing any animal to suffer just for the
convenience of mankind, but there are limits to altruism. If ever I
have
to dispatch a squirrel in a trap, it will be shot.

If I had a gun this may be the method I'd use, but I don't have a gun.

I bet you didn't have a trap before you went out and bought one, either.



Which would be OK by the RSPCA and also with Environmental Health at
some
Council websites I've seen. If you've read the Forestry Commission PDF
files
I've posted the links for, you'll have seen one reason they don't
recommend
shooting the squirrel in the trap is they're worried about a possible
ricochet causing human injury, so maybe it's 'Health and Safety' mania
at
the root of it. I also noticed they are worried about use of steel
pellets
in shooting in their woods because of the effect they can have on the
value
of timber.

Squirrels cause a great deal of damage other than to trees, they steal
things I grow for my own consumption, they kill birds by destroying the
eggs, they dig up plants, they break into peoples homes destroying
property, chewing through electricity cables putting human beings at
risk from electrocution and fire, both children and the elderly, as
well as all sorts of other problems.

But you wouldn't want to be bothered about things like that, would you?

Don't be silly. I have taken issue with the method of destruction of trapped
squirrels you have been advocating. I have not argued that nobody ever has
any need to remove squirrels from their property. Not knowing the
circumstances in which you live, I have done you the courtesy of assuming
you have a genuine need to control squirrels, and are not simply killing
them as a result of some malign obsession.


It requires a little common sense.

I don't understand how you can ignore this destruction,


I am not ignoring 'this destruction', although I do not personally believe
it to be sufficient justification for a universal 'kill on sight' policy -
IMO it should be up to individual landowners to decide whether or not they
are prepared to tolerate the squirrels which visit their properties. What I
have been saying is I believe that where someone decides there is a need to
control squirrels or other mammals on his land, he should ensure that they
are despatched in a humane manner, and I don't believe that drowning is the
most humane alternative.

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"Kay" wrote in message
...
In article , Alan Holmes
writes

I follow a procedure which is laid down by a governmenr department
called
The Forestry Commission, if you have any problems with that procedure
I
suggest instead of trying to slag people off here, you contact them
and
put your concerns to them.

You are advocating drowning, which does not appear to be advocated by
the Forestry Commission in any of its currently applicable documents
referring to grey squirrel control.

What sensible/practical method do they now suggest is the way to
despatch
them?

If you have read the pdf document linked to my response to Kay's
message,
you will know the two methods recommended by the FC are either
administation
of a lethal blow to the head with a blunt instrument, or transportation
to
a
vet for humane destruction. No mention of drowning, in fact they
recommend
that no means of destruction other than those I've just mentioned should
be
attempted.

I cannot see how it is possible to get close enough to kill with a blow to
the head.

As you must know, if you have read the FC advice, you, kitted out with your
gauntlets, are somehow supposed to get the squirrel out of the trap into a
hessian sack, and, once you have subdued it in the sack, are supposed to
work out where the head is and whack it with the 'blunt instrument'. If you
find the advice impractical or incredible, I suggest you take it up with the
FC.


And who will be expected to pay the vet for despatching the vermin?

That would be you, I guess, since you're the one who wants rid of them.


Should I take rats and mice to the vet to kill them?

That would be entirely your decision, of course, but you might consider
using means of catching them which kill them humanely at point of capture?


Is this covered by the council tax?


You would have to ask your local council about their pest control policies,
and whether they're 'free' to residents.

The message
from "Alan Holmes" contains these words:

I don't understand how you can ignore this destruction,

I'm getting to the point where I'm ignoring your posts if your reply is
somewhere under more than a page of quoted text.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"John Edgar" wrote in message
ups.com...
In what way is it illegal to kill vermin by drowning them? One of
the
best ways I would have thought. I believe it is illegal to drown
humans, but grey squirrels?

It was technically made illegal by virtue of the Wild Mammals
Protection
Act
1996 which included drowning amongst the list of abuses outlawed
from
30th
April 1997. I don't know whether the RSPCA has actually brought
charges
against anyone for drowning a wild mammal, though, or if they
have,
whether
the perpetrator was convicted.

It is the method recomended by the Forestry Commistion for the
disposal
of
this type of vermin.


Is it? Do you have a reference for that? Did you perhaps receive that
advice
prior to April 1997?

Please enlighten me, what happened on April 1997.


The Wild Mammals Protection Act 1996 came into force, as previously
stated.
I was speculating it might be possible, that, as a consequence of
deliberate
drowning being listed as an abuse, the FC may have amended its position
regarding despatch of grey squirrels by drowning.

I have asked the RSPCA whether, in their opinion, drowning of grey
squirrels
is a humane form of killing live trapped squirrels, and their response
was
that the squirrels should be despatched either by shooting or by a
lethal
blow to the head.

Have any of them ever tried to get one into a position where one could
strike
a lethal blow to the head?

And what is their view of killing rats and mice?



Sorry to respond for a second time to the same posting, but the query
regarding the killing of rats and mice prompted me to investigate whether
drowning was considered a humane method of dispatching rats caught in a cage
trap.

See

http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/rd...cal/TAN_34.pdf

which is the DEFRA Technical Advice Note for dealing with rat infestations.
From which I quote,

"Cage Traps
This method is time consuming, but is a viable
alternative to baiting in situations where resistance is
suspected or when high value crops require protection.
A large number of cage traps are required and prebaiting
is necessary to achieve effective control. Traps
should be located carefully to protect captured animals
from extreme weather conditions or temperatures, and
from flooding.
The benefit of using cage traps is that any non-target
species that are captured can be released unharmed.
Traps should be checked twice a day, in the early
morning and late afternoon. Any captured rats must be
humanely despatched, either by a single blow to the
head or by shooting. Drowning is not a humane
method of dispatch and could result in prosecution
under the Protection of Animals Act 1911."

You will note what it says about drowning as a means of dispatch. If
drowning rats isn't regarded as humane, I doubt very much whether drowning
grey squirrels is, either.

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...
ups.com...
In what way is it illegal to kill vermin by drowning them? One of
the
best ways I would have thought. I believe it is illegal to drown
humans, but grey squirrels?

It was technically made illegal by virtue of the Wild Mammals
Protection
Act
1996 which included drowning amongst the list of abuses outlawed
from
30th
April 1997. I don't know whether the RSPCA has actually brought
charges
against anyone for drowning a wild mammal, though, or if they have,
whether
the perpetrator was convicted.

It is the method recomended by the Forestry Commistion for the
disposal
of
this type of vermin.


Is it? Do you have a reference for that? Did you perhaps receive that
advice
prior to April 1997?

Please enlighten me, what happened on April 1997.

The Wild Mammals Protection Act 1996 came into force, as previously
stated.
I was speculating it might be possible, that, as a consequence of
deliberate
drowning being listed as an abuse, the FC may have amended its position
regarding despatch of grey squirrels by drowning.

I have asked the RSPCA whether, in their opinion, drowning of grey
squirrels
is a humane form of killing live trapped squirrels, and their response was
that the squirrels should be despatched either by shooting or by a lethal
blow to the head.

Did they say exactly how one would be able to restrain it to administer a
blow
to the head?

As to shooting it, it would still have to be made to be still, the traps are
about 6 inches square and about two feet long, the squirrels can go from end
to end at about three times a second, it would be very difficult to aim the
gun at the squirrel to make a shot kill the thing, it is more likely that it
would be wounded, so one would have to reload, and try again with the
distinct possiblity that it would be wounded again. This could well take
considerably longer that the ten seconds it takes to drown the thing, and
all this time it would be in great pain, how does that tie up with being
humane?

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Chris Bacon" wrote in message
...
BAC wrote:
(In Apr, 1997)
The Wild Mammals Protection Act 1996 came into force, as previously
stated.
I was speculating it might be possible, that, as a consequence of
deliberate
drowning being listed as an abuse

It is not "listed as an abuse" - although it can be an abuse.

"BE IT ENACTED by the Queens' most Excellent Majesty, by and with the
advice
and consent of the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and Commons, in this
present Parliament assembled, and by the authority of the same, as
follows:-


Offences. 1. If, save as permitted by this Act, any person mutilates,
kicks, beats, nails or otherwise impales, stabs, burns, stones, crushes,
drowns, drags or asphyxiates any wild mammal with intent to inflict
unnecessary suffering he shall be guilty of an offence."

It is, prima facie, an abuse, as listed under S1 unless covered by one of
the exceptions.

One of those exceptions (s2b)
is the killing in a reasonably swift and humane way of a mammal taken in
the
course of lawful pest control activity.

So, the question seems to remain, is killing a captured squirrel by
drowning
'reasonably swift and humane',

Ten seconds!

Is that swift enough?

If I were fataly injured and I would expire in ten seconds I wouldn't worry
to
much, it would be to quick for me to notice, but if my death throws were to
be
a lot longer then, yes, I would be unhappy about that.

"BAC" wrote in message
...


I have asked the RSPCA whether, in their opinion, drowning of grey
squirrels
is a humane form of killing live trapped squirrels, and their
response
was
that the squirrels should be despatched either by shooting or by a
lethal
blow to the head.

Have any of them ever tried to get one into a position where one could
strike
a lethal blow to the head?

I don't know. However, if you consult the FC's current advice on grey
squirrel control in woodlands, it describes what they advocate as the
correct procedure in some detail.


And what is their view of killing rats and mice?


And what is the point of that question?

That they are all vermin.

So what? Are you implying that animals which are a nuisance (vermin) are
somehow undeserving of humane treatment?

You have not answered the question, what is their view of killing rats
and mice?

Is poisoning rats causing them to suffer an agonising death over many
hours, humane?

"Kay" wrote in message
...
In article , Alan Holmes
writes

I follow a procedure which is laid down by a governmenr department called
The Forestry Commission, if you have any problems with that procedure I
suggest instead of trying to slag people off here, you contact them and
put your concerns to them.

You are advocating drowning, which does not appear to be advocated by
the Forestry Commission in any of its currently applicable documents
referring to grey squirrel control.

When I started kiling them about 15 to 20 years ago that was the
recomended method as is it quick.

When I bought the trap the salesman was very precise as to how to set
the trap and the disposal of the vermin when caught, I had no reason
to doubt what I was being told, as it was in a farm equipment suppliers.

If things have changed and there is a sensible method of disposing of
the vermin then I would be prepared to adopt it, but so far no
practical method has been offered.

--
Kay
"Do not insult the crocodile until you have crossed the river"

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...


I follow a procedure which is laid down by a governmenr department
called
The Forestry Commission, if you have any problems with that procedure
I
suggest instead of trying to slag people off here, you contact them
and
put your concerns to them.

You are advocating drowning, which does not appear to be advocated by
the Forestry Commission in any of its currently applicable documents
referring to grey squirrel control.

I think the most applicable may be
http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/fcpn004.pdf/$FILE/fcpn004.pdf
specific to the control of grey squirrels in woodlands, which, in
respect
of
live trapping, recommends that the squirrels be removed from the trap
and
killed with a blow to the head from a blunt instrument, or taken to a
vet
for humane destruction. It goes so far as to say no other form of
killing
of
live trapped squirrels should be attempted (and that includes shooting
them).

I have asked Alan to provide a reference for the 'drowning' advice he
claims
to have had from the FC, but none has yet been forthcoming. I suspect
any
such advice may turn out to have been superseded.

I am not going to put myself at risk in order to follow some idea put by
people who have never had to deal with these pests.

That is the Forestry Commission you are talking about, the same
organisation
you previously claimed to be advocating drowning as a means of disposal.

If you are unwilling to put yourself at risk to do the job humanely,
perhaps
you should not be doing it at all?


In fact, I invite you do come round and deal with the next one I catch!


No, thanks, I have no wish to kill your grey squirrels. But I expect you
could find professional pest controllers in your area who would be willing
to do the job properly, for a price, and at no risk to yourself.

Is it normal to pay someone to catch rats and mice?

"BAC" wrote in message
...


I follow a procedure which is laid down by a governmenr department
called
The Forestry Commission, if you have any problems with that
procedure
I
suggest instead of trying to slag people off here, you contact them
and
put your concerns to them.

You are advocating drowning, which does not appear to be advocated
by
the Forestry Commission in any of its currently applicable documents
referring to grey squirrel control.

What sensible/practical method do they now suggest is the way to
despatch
them?

If you have read the pdf document linked to my response to Kay's
message,
you will know the two methods recommended by the FC are either
administation
of a lethal blow to the head with a blunt instrument, or transportation
to
a
vet for humane destruction. No mention of drowning, in fact they
recommend
that no means of destruction other than those I've just mentioned
should
be
attempted.

I cannot see how it is possible to get close enough to kill with a blow
to
the head.

As you must know, if you have read the FC advice, you, kitted out with
your
gauntlets, are somehow supposed to get the squirrel out of the trap into a
hessian sack, and, once you have subdued it in the sack, are supposed to
work out where the head is and whack it with the 'blunt instrument'. If
you
find the advice impractical or incredible, I suggest you take it up with
the
FC.

I have no wish to cause myself considerable injury trying to get one of
these things out of the trap.

These things are lethal.

"BAC" wrote in message
...

"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote in message
k...
The message
from "BAC" contains these words:

You are advocating drowning, which does not appear to be advocated by
the Forestry Commission in any of its currently applicable documents
referring to grey squirrel control.

I think the most applicable may be
http://www.forestry.gov.uk/pdf/fcpn004.pdf/$FILE/fcpn004.pdf
specific to the control of grey squirrels in woodlands, which, in
respect of
live trapping, recommends that the squirrels be removed from the trap
and
killed with a blow to the head from a blunt instrument, or taken to a
vet
for humane destruction. It goes so far as to say no other form of
killing of
live trapped squirrels should be attempted (and that includes shooting
them).

I'd recommend that the twerp who dreamt-up the blunt instrument
treatment should be given a squirrel and a blunt instrument, and filmed.

And how much do they think a vet would charge per squirrel?

The advice is pure cloud-cuckooland, and worthy of the worst excesses of
the so-called 'animal rights' lobby.

Well, that's the Forestry Commission for you (emphatically not an AR
organisation), the same organisation which Alan cited as authority for
drowning the animals, which is of course the main reason I've referred to
them, since he's hoist on his own petard, so to speak.


I don't believe in allowing any animal to suffer just for the
convenience of mankind, but there are limits to altruism. If ever I have
to dispatch a squirrel in a trap, it will be shot.

Which would be OK by the RSPCA and also with Environmental Health at some
Council websites I've seen. If you've read the Forestry Commission PDF
files
I've posted the links for, you'll have seen one reason they don't
recommend
shooting the squirrel in the trap is they're worried about a possible
ricochet causing human injury, so maybe it's 'Health and Safety' mania at
the root of it. I also noticed they are worried about use of steel pellets
in shooting in their woods because of the effect they can have on the
value
of timber.

So can you give us a precise method of extracting this extreemly dangerous
vermin from the trap in order to shoot it?