The message
from "Alan Holmes" contains these words:

Whilst many people accept the necessity of pest control, that doesn't mean
they would condone wanton cruelty to the 'pest'. Would you think it OK to
kill squirrels by roasting them alive over a slow fire, for example?

Would you consider a time of 10 seconds, or less, to death, cruelty?

It wouldn't *BE* only ten seconds. The animal could hold its breath for
a lot longer than that, and even with lungs full of water, death isn't
immediate.

I wouldn't drown any creature. Except perhaps a politician, at birth.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/

Alan Holmes wrote:
"pammyT" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...
Drowning is very quick,
how the hell do you figure that out? Drowning is slow and bloody
cruel and possibly illegal as a method of killling the thing.

it would be dangerous to attempt to get them into a
sack,
as that would require opening the cage, which, if you have ever
seen one close up,
you would not wish to get that close to.


Ya big wimp. I have been close up to them, in Canada where I fed
them from my hand every morning, and over here where a rescue
sanctuary had one in a large aviary.

Do you also feed the other type of rat, the ones without the furry
tails?

I used to. I had four as pets when I was younger. Cracking animals, rats.
Very intelligent and clean - and the best pets for children.

--
In memory of MS MVP Alex Nichol: http://www.dts-l.org/

BAC wrote:
"John Edgar" wrote in message
oups.com...
How can it be inhumane? We are not dealing with humans, but animals
and vermin at that.


I'm assuming you are responding to a post which suggested that killing
squirrels by drowning might be considered inhumane?

Do you believe it is impossible to be inhumane to any non-human
animal? If so, how would you define 'humane'?

From the Chambers Dictionary: -

humane adj 1 kind and sympathetic. 2 said of a killing: done with as little
pain and suffering as possible. 3 said of a branch of learning: aiming to
civilize and make more elegant and polite. humanely adverb. humaneness noun.

Nothing whatsoever to do with 'human' except it's usually humans doing the
killing.


--
In memory of MS MVP Alex Nichol: http://www.dts-l.org/

In message , Alan Holmes
writes

"Sue Begg" wrote in message
...

Sue Begg
Remove my clothes to reply

I'd love to, when can we meet?(:-)

LOL it's not a pretty sight nowadays :-))
--
Sue Begg
Remove my clothes to reply

Do not mess in the affairs of dragons - for
you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...
Ya big wimp. I have been close up to them, in Canada where I fed them
from
my hand every morning, and over here where a rescue sanctuary had one in
a
large aviary.

Do you also feed the other type of rat, the ones without the furry tails?

Err what type in particular? I have a pet rat which I feed. What *other*
sort of rats are there?

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
news

I am sorry but the thought of any creature struggling to breath for
several
minutes while underwater turns my stomach.

You have absolutely no idea of the prcedure for disposing of vermin, when
I had to start dealing with these pests, I was concerned about the effect
it was having, so I timed it, it generaly takes less that ten seconds.
You are deluding yourself.It would be able to hold its breath, then even
after the first lungful of water it would be concious for some seconds. May
I suggest you hold your head in a bucket of water until your lungs are
bursting, then inhale some water, then come back and tell me is is painless
and humane. As I said before, I nearly drowned as a 9 year old child and it
was terrifying.The mere thought of it makes me take big gulps of breath just
to dispell the mental image.

This is nothing compared with the suffering this vermin makes when it
raids
birds nests.
You obviously hate the things because you are imagining things. When any
animal raids a birds nest it will take eggs and chicks, the chicks I would
assume die quickly from a bite or shock. Nothing compared to drowning. Cull
if you must but have the decency to do it quickly, painlessly and without
causing undue terror or suffering. You make it sound like you almost justify
causing suffering because they are so great a vermin.

"pammyT" wrote in message
...

"John Edgar" wrote in message
oups.com...
How can it be inhumane? We are not dealing with humans, but animals and
vermin at that.

ITY are a troll. Either that or you are clinically a phychopath, unable to
imagine anything from another perspective and have no concept of another's
suffering.

No he is not a troll, it is quite possible you are, who else would make such
a fuss about killing vermin.

"pammyT" wrote in message
...

"John Edgar" wrote in message
ups.com...
Why am I vile for wanting to kill vermin? I might be considered vile if
I wanted to kill another human, but vermin? What is so special about
grey squirrels? Please explain your point of view.

Are you sure you missed the point? Are you really *that* dim?
The objection here is not necessarily the killing or this species of
animal,
but the methods used to kill. Any rational, normal human being, would want
to kill quickly, and painlessly whereas you seem to want to cause the most
suffeerring and seem not to feel any compassion at all for a creature you
seem to fear or hate. This is simply not rational.

You should be addressing your comments to the Forestry Commision, it is they
who recomend drowning as a means of disposing of vermin.

"Chris Bacon" wrote in message
...
John Edgar wrote:
How would they find out? Another unworkable law like the law making use
of mobiles while driving illegal.

Erm, that law is quite workable, much like the seat-belt law.

Who cares about abuse of vermin like grey squirrels anyway?

Well, I do, for one. It's unacceptable. If setting traps, for instance,
you *must* inspect them frequently.

I agree, although sometimes it is a waste of time, I went to check my traps
one day, and I found in one an unidentifiable lump of something, closer
examination showed it to be the head of a squirrel. Obviously the foxes
had got there before me and killed the thing but dragging bits of it out
of the trap. I leave you to imagine the effect on the squirrel!

Anyway, this is getting somewhat OT for u.r.g.

I'm afraid I do not agree, they cause a great deal of damage to gardens.

--
alan

reply to alan(dot)holmes27(at)virgin(dot)net

"Sue Begg" wrote in message
...
In message , Alan Holmes
writes

"Sue Begg" wrote in message
...

Sue Begg
Remove my clothes to reply

I'd love to, when can we meet?(:-)

LOL it's not a pretty sight nowadays :-))

Snap!(:-)

--
alan

reply to alan(dot)holmes27(at)virgin(dot)net

--
Sue Begg
Remove my clothes to reply

Do not mess in the affairs of dragons - for
you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

"pammyT" wrote in message
...

"John Edgar" wrote in message
oups.com...
How would they find out? Another unworkable law like the law making use
of mobiles while driving illegal. Who cares about abuse of vermin like
grey squirrels anyway?

Any normal right thinking human being does. To be totally indifferent to
any creature's terror and suffering would make you a psychopath.

Whilst cleaning a crab for my tea, I began to wonder if the Pompous, High
and Mighty pammyT ever ate things like lobsters, which are a favourite in
the American continent, or shrimps or prawns, or indeed any other seafood.

If she does, she must surely be aware that some of those are cooked whilst
still alive, fish are dragged from the bottom of the sea and 'drowned' and
it takes them much longer than ten seconds to end their lives, the fact
that they cannot scream does not mean they are not suffering.

I do hope that that thought, does not put off the more sensible readers
from enjoying their fish and chips.

--
alan

reply to alan(dot)holmes27(at)virgin(dot)net

"pammyT" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
news

I am sorry but the thought of any creature struggling to breath for
several
minutes while underwater turns my stomach.

You have absolutely no idea of the prcedure for disposing of vermin, when
I had to start dealing with these pests, I was concerned about the effect
it was having, so I timed it, it generaly takes less that ten seconds.
You are deluding yourself.It would be able to hold its breath, then even
after the first lungful of water it would be concious for some seconds.
May
I suggest you hold your head in a bucket of water until your lungs are
bursting, then inhale some water, then come back and tell me is is
painless
and humane. As I said before, I nearly drowned as a 9 year old child and
it
was terrifying.The mere thought of it makes me take big gulps of breath
just
to dispell the mental image.

This is nothing compared with the suffering this vermin makes when it
raids
birds nests.
You obviously hate the things because you are imagining things. When any
animal raids a birds nest it will take eggs and chicks, the chicks I would
assume die quickly from a bite or shock. Nothing compared to drowning.
Cull
if you must but have the decency to do it quickly, painlessly and without
causing undue terror or suffering. You make it sound like you almost
justify
causing suffering because they are so great a vermin.

I do wonder whether you read any of my posts properly.

I follow a procedure which is laid down by a governmenr department called
The Forestry Commission, if you have any problems with that procedure I
suggest instead of trying to slag people off here, you contact them and
put your concerns to them.

It is widely recognised in this country that the grey squirrel is vermin
and has to be kept under control, if you are unhappy about that then I
suggest you stop reading uk newsgroups.

"pammyT" wrote in message
...

"Alan Holmes" wrote in message
...
Ya big wimp. I have been close up to them, in Canada where I fed them
from
my hand every morning, and over here where a rescue sanctuary had one
in
a
large aviary.

Do you also feed the other type of rat, the ones without the furry tails?

Err what type in particular? I have a pet rat which I feed. What *other*
sort of rats are there?

Ones with bushy tails, and others which invade homes and leave mess
everywhere
some of which is a danger to health.

Are you sure you missed the point? Are you really *that* dim?
The objection here is not necessarily the killing or this species of
animal,
but the methods used to kill. Any rational, normal human being, would
want
to kill quickly, and painlessly whereas you seem to want to cause the
most
suffeerring and seem not to feel any compassion at all for a creature
you
seem to fear or hate. This is simply not rational.

The point I am making is that the methods used to kill vermin are
unimportant. They are vermin, hence any death is better for us than
that they live. Get rid of them and good riddance. If they suffer, they
suffer. They make me suffer.
John

Yes - doesn't your ISP have a newsfeed? Then you can use a proper
newsreader, such as Thunderbird (with Firefox), Opera News, Netscape
Communicator, I think Agent does news as well as mail, oh, lots of
decent programs are available.

I was using Agent to access the news service in Germany - I forget its
name, but they started charging. I have a basic BB ISP that does not
provide usenet service hence the use of Google groups. I am now using
copy and paste and hope it works
John