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Old 09-05-2005, 07:04 PM
Mike Lyle
 
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Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article , Chris Bacon
writes:
Nick Maclaren wrote:
I think that field beans are essentially the beans that were
a staple in Europe before Phaseolus vulgaris was imported from
the Americas. So, for a true mediaeval flavour, you know what
to grow :-)

Erm, phaseolus vulgaris? French bean, surely? Vicia faber = broad
bean. I remember this as my "local" used to have three barmaids
named Phaseolus Multiflorus, Phaseolus Vulgaris, and later Vicia
Faber. These names were singularly appropriate, if not

well-liked.

Yes, except it's faba not faber (feminine, meaning broad bean, not
masculine, meaning workman).

The staple bean of Europe up to the 15th century was V. faba, but
it was replaced fairly rapidly by the imported P. vulgaris, which
spread from the south. That is why it is called the French bean,
to distinguish it from the ordinary bean. Since then, the word
"bean" has moved to the more commonly eaten bean, and the older
ordinary bean has acquired the epithet "broad".


Self-duh! Just twigged: presumably Arabic _fasulya_ for French and
runner beans is a corruption of _phaseolus_. You mentioned "el ful"
for the refined cultivar of field beans*: my memory has just, to me
impressively, popped up that broad beans are _ful cubrussi_, or
"Cyprus ful". (But I needed the dictionary to find that the Turkish
equivalent of "spill the beans" is also an expression involving
[broad] beans!)

What I _don't_ twig is the association of haricot etc beans with the
Americas, which I've heard and read repeatedly over the years.
Classical Latin had words for them, so they must have been around for
a long time. Are our modern varieties the result of crosses with
American species?

*Got round to growing them yet?

--
Mike.


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Old 09-05-2005, 09:14 PM
Nick Maclaren
 
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In article ,
Mike Lyle wrote:

Self-duh! Just twigged: presumably Arabic _fasulya_ for French and
runner beans is a corruption of _phaseolus_. You mentioned "el ful"
for the refined cultivar of field beans*: my memory has just, to me
impressively, popped up that broad beans are _ful cubrussi_, or
"Cyprus ful". (But I needed the dictionary to find that the Turkish
equivalent of "spill the beans" is also an expression involving
[broad] beans!)


Interesting. I didn't know most of that. But I didn't say that
"el ful" was a refined cultivar of field beans, but that they are
different types (probably different for a very long time). The
field/broad beans we grow wouldn't do at all well in the climate
of Egypt, and I assume that the converse is true for "el ful".
Given that broad beans are one of the hardiest of our vegetables
and are derived from a southerly wild plant, I suspect a long period
of selecting for hardiness.

What I _don't_ twig is the association of haricot etc beans with the
Americas, which I've heard and read repeatedly over the years.
Classical Latin had words for them, so they must have been around for
a long time. Are our modern varieties the result of crosses with
American species?


No. The Phaseolus species ARE American, and were imported in the 16th
century. The classical Latin terms are for the Vicia faba varieties
(and possibly for some of the species we rarely grow, but are common
in India). One of my books says that there is a Phaseolus species
native to India (the snail flower), but it is rarely eaten as far
as I know.

*Got round to growing them yet?


Nope. I doubt that I shall, as they are easier to buy.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
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Old 09-05-2005, 10:29 PM
Mike Lyle
 
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Nick Maclaren wrote:
[...]
No. The Phaseolus species ARE American, and were imported in the

16th
century. The classical Latin terms are for the Vicia faba

varieties
(and possibly for some of the species we rarely grow, but are

common
in India). [...]


I'm handicapped here by owning only the old Lewis and Short, not the
more up-to-date Oxford Latin Dictionary. L&S calls _faba_ the
"horse-bean" (_vicia_ is just vetch, of course); OED isn't specific
about what a "horse-bean" was, so can I assume it was the field bean?
The L&S sources do seem to make a distinction from _phase[o]lus_: I
wonder what they had in mind.

--
Mike.


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Old 09-05-2005, 10:48 PM
Jaques d'Alltrades
 
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The message
from Sacha contains these words:

Trust me to trip over my own tongue! ;-) By field beans do you mean broad
beans? I know some beans smell heavenly but don't know which.


Closely related, but the beans are a bit smaller. They're used for
cattle feed.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
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Old 09-05-2005, 10:49 PM
Jaques d'Alltrades
 
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The message
from Martin Brown contains these words:

The smell is obviously in the nose of the beholder. I reckon oilseed
rape smells horrible - and it is hell to walk through when a path
crosses a field of the stuff.


To me, it smells of honey.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/


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Old 09-05-2005, 10:57 PM
Jaques d'Alltrades
 
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The message
from Chris Bacon contains these words:
Nick Maclaren wrote:


it's faba not faber (feminine, meaning broad bean, not masculine,
meaning workman).


Interesting, my old Sutton's (1960?) is wrong, then.


Faba (n) bean
Faber (n) a worker (In the army, fabri - the engineers)
Faber -bra -brum (adj) ingenious, skilful

Cassell's Compact Latin Dictionary.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
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