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#16
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Nick Maclaren wrote:
In article , Chris Bacon writes: Nick Maclaren wrote: I think that field beans are essentially the beans that were a staple in Europe before Phaseolus vulgaris was imported from the Americas. So, for a true mediaeval flavour, you know what to grow :-) Erm, phaseolus vulgaris? French bean, surely? Vicia faber = broad bean. I remember this as my "local" used to have three barmaids named Phaseolus Multiflorus, Phaseolus Vulgaris, and later Vicia Faber. These names were singularly appropriate, if not well-liked. Yes, except it's faba not faber (feminine, meaning broad bean, not masculine, meaning workman). The staple bean of Europe up to the 15th century was V. faba, but it was replaced fairly rapidly by the imported P. vulgaris, which spread from the south. That is why it is called the French bean, to distinguish it from the ordinary bean. Since then, the word "bean" has moved to the more commonly eaten bean, and the older ordinary bean has acquired the epithet "broad". Self-duh! Just twigged: presumably Arabic _fasulya_ for French and runner beans is a corruption of _phaseolus_. You mentioned "el ful" for the refined cultivar of field beans*: my memory has just, to me impressively, popped up that broad beans are _ful cubrussi_, or "Cyprus ful". (But I needed the dictionary to find that the Turkish equivalent of "spill the beans" is also an expression involving [broad] beans!) What I _don't_ twig is the association of haricot etc beans with the Americas, which I've heard and read repeatedly over the years. Classical Latin had words for them, so they must have been around for a long time. Are our modern varieties the result of crosses with American species? *Got round to growing them yet? -- Mike. |
#17
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In article ,
Mike Lyle wrote: Self-duh! Just twigged: presumably Arabic _fasulya_ for French and runner beans is a corruption of _phaseolus_. You mentioned "el ful" for the refined cultivar of field beans*: my memory has just, to me impressively, popped up that broad beans are _ful cubrussi_, or "Cyprus ful". (But I needed the dictionary to find that the Turkish equivalent of "spill the beans" is also an expression involving [broad] beans!) Interesting. I didn't know most of that. But I didn't say that "el ful" was a refined cultivar of field beans, but that they are different types (probably different for a very long time). The field/broad beans we grow wouldn't do at all well in the climate of Egypt, and I assume that the converse is true for "el ful". Given that broad beans are one of the hardiest of our vegetables and are derived from a southerly wild plant, I suspect a long period of selecting for hardiness. What I _don't_ twig is the association of haricot etc beans with the Americas, which I've heard and read repeatedly over the years. Classical Latin had words for them, so they must have been around for a long time. Are our modern varieties the result of crosses with American species? No. The Phaseolus species ARE American, and were imported in the 16th century. The classical Latin terms are for the Vicia faba varieties (and possibly for some of the species we rarely grow, but are common in India). One of my books says that there is a Phaseolus species native to India (the snail flower), but it is rarely eaten as far as I know. *Got round to growing them yet? Nope. I doubt that I shall, as they are easier to buy. Regards, Nick Maclaren. |
#18
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Nick Maclaren wrote:
[...] No. The Phaseolus species ARE American, and were imported in the 16th century. The classical Latin terms are for the Vicia faba varieties (and possibly for some of the species we rarely grow, but are common in India). [...] I'm handicapped here by owning only the old Lewis and Short, not the more up-to-date Oxford Latin Dictionary. L&S calls _faba_ the "horse-bean" (_vicia_ is just vetch, of course); OED isn't specific about what a "horse-bean" was, so can I assume it was the field bean? The L&S sources do seem to make a distinction from _phase[o]lus_: I wonder what they had in mind. -- Mike. |
#19
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The message
from Sacha contains these words: Trust me to trip over my own tongue! ;-) By field beans do you mean broad beans? I know some beans smell heavenly but don't know which. Closely related, but the beans are a bit smaller. They're used for cattle feed. -- Rusty Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar. http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/ |
#20
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The message
from Martin Brown contains these words: The smell is obviously in the nose of the beholder. I reckon oilseed rape smells horrible - and it is hell to walk through when a path crosses a field of the stuff. To me, it smells of honey. -- Rusty Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar. http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/ |
#21
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The message
from Chris Bacon contains these words: Nick Maclaren wrote: it's faba not faber (feminine, meaning broad bean, not masculine, meaning workman). Interesting, my old Sutton's (1960?) is wrong, then. Faba (n) bean Faber (n) a worker (In the army, fabri - the engineers) Faber -bra -brum (adj) ingenious, skilful Cassell's Compact Latin Dictionary. -- Rusty Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar. http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/ |
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