American frost zones
Does anyone have the translation of the usda hardiness frost zone keys which
accompany american text on plants. I would be grateful if anyone could fill me in on the key. |
American frost zones
tim wrote:
Does anyone have the translation of the usda hardiness frost zone keys which accompany american text on plants. I would be grateful if anyone could fill me in on the key. Do you mean the USDA hardiness zone system? Here you will find some info: http://markw.com/hzones.htm http://www2.dicom.se/fuchsias/eurozoner.html But - This zone system just gives the average yearly recorded minimum temperatures. It should be noted that for the winter survival of a certain plant, in any given location, many other factors also play a role (local humidity, local temperature fluctuations, amount of wind and sunshine, latitude, microclimate etc.) A continental climate (the US) is not the same as a maritime climate (the UK). Regards Roger. -- Walk tall, walk straight, and look the world right into the eye. You're welcome to visit my gardening page: http://users.pandora.be/roger.van.loon/gardenp.htm |
American frost zones
In article ,
tim wrote: Does anyone have the translation of the usda hardiness frost zone keys which accompany american text on plants. I would be grateful if anyone could fill me in on the key. Zone 8 is winter temperatures down to 15 degrees Fahrenheit, and they go in 10 degree units. But they don't make a lot of sense in the UK. You are better off assuming that the colder parts of the UK are zone 7, and the warmer parts zone 8, rather than taking any notice of the temperatures. Even then, they don't match. The conditions are just too dissimilar. And the USDA zones are a damn-fool idea anyway, as they measure an extreme value rather than a central one, and that is NOT a reliable indicator of what will affect plants. If they measured the average minimum daily average, they would translate a LOT better. Regards, Nick Maclaren, University of Cambridge Computing Service, New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email: Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679 |
American frost zones
"tim" wrote in message ... Does anyone have the translation of the usda hardiness frost zone keys which accompany american text on plants. I would be grateful if anyone could fill me in on the key. Thankyou Roger and Nick, most helpful info. |
American frost zones
"Nick Maclaren" wrote in . And the USDA zones are a damn-fool idea anyway, as they measure an extreme value rather than a central one, and that is NOT a reliable//////////////Bottom line.......I find them very useful when combining with other factors........far from being a "damned fool idea"........I would not consider growing a plant listed as zone 8 min. when I am in zone 6 (regardless of other factors)........I also admit the a plant listed for zone 7 might not be in my grow list for other climatic reasons. Harold Walker |
American frost zones
In article IlX4a.169127$iG3.19825@sccrnsc02,
Anne Middleton/Harold Walker wrote: "Nick Maclaren" wrote in . And the USDA zones are a damn-fool idea anyway, as they measure an extreme value rather than a central one, and that is NOT a reliable//////////////Bottom line.......I find them very useful when combining with other factors........far from being a "damned fool idea"........I would not consider growing a plant listed as zone 8 min. when I am in zone 6 (regardless of other factors)........I also admit the a plant listed for zone 7 might not be in my grow list for other climatic reasons. The reason that they are a damn-fool idea is that the average minimum winter temperature is directly relevant ONLY to plants that rely on their above-ground parts overwintering, and is marginal even for them. Using the average minimum daily average would make it relevant (a) to more of them and (b) to plants that overwinter underground. In the USA (an almost wholly continental climate), the soil never freezes in zone 8, let alone zone 9. In the UK (an almost wholly maritime climate and MUCH further north), it does, readily. It has been dropping to -4 to -5 Celcius here (borderline USDA zone 8/9) and the ground has frozen hard, probably a couple of inches down. In the contiguous USA, there is a STRONG correlation between the average minimum winter temperature and the average minimum daily average, but it does NOT extend outside that restricted ranage of climate types. In the UK, there is a very poor correlation, and there is almost none with the USA. Regards, Nick Maclaren, University of Cambridge Computing Service, New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email: Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679 |
American frost zones
"Nick Maclaren" "Nick Maclaren" wrote in . And the USDA zones are a damn-fool idea anyway, as they measure ///////////////// to repeat Nick, it is a useful tool but not the only one. HW. |
American frost zones
Anne Middleton/Harold Walker wrote: "Nick Maclaren" "Nick Maclaren" wrote in . And the USDA zones are a damn-fool idea anyway, as they measure ///////////////// to repeat Nick, it is a useful tool but not the only one. It is only useful in a continental climate. It gives insane results when applied in the UK. The UK winter cold and the damp will kill lots of things that USDA zones would have you believe were winter hardy. The Sunset Climate Zones for the Pacific NW are a closer match but still not perfect. http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ldplants/sunsetzn.htm Regards, Martin Brown |
American frost zones
In article ,
Roger Van Loon wrote: I'm sure there are very many serious plant growers in the UK. And I'm equally sure that, when they do look up a plant, and the info says "Z8" or "Z9" or "Z10", that this is, for them, very useful info (combined with other factors). It surely must be one of the factors that let them decide wether or not they can try it outside in their own specific location. Surely you wouldn't try out Z10 plants in your backyard? We do. Next question? As a good rule, in the relevant ranges of USDA zones 7 to 9, there is a VERY POOR association between the USDA zone categorisation and the hardiness of the plants on the UK. In fact, a good proportion of USDA zone 6 plants are too delicate for the UK :-( If the average minimum temperatures (which means: amount of frost) do not play any role whatsoever where you are, OK , then I'll shut up. No, actually, it DOESN'T mean "amount of frost" in any reasonable sense, and that is part of the point. It refers to the extreme low in an average winter, which is NOT the same as what most gardeners mean by amount of frost, especially not in the UK. [ In this context, may I draw to your attention the connotations of the terms "a short, sharp snap" and "a hard frost"? The former is often colder than the latter, but the latter implies that more things actually freeze. ] Of the major factors affecting the hardiness of plants, it is one that is relevant to only a small proportion of plants, whereas there are others that affect far more. And a good proportion of those other factors are both measurable and applicable across a far wider range of climate types. Some of the most important to the UK are not easily measurable, unfortunately. As I have posted before, with evidence, and been flamed for so doing, the traditional indicator is the latitude at which the species is found growing naturally. This is a bad indicator, but is certainly no worse than the USDA zones. And, again, as I posted, if the measurement were the average minimum daily average rather than the average extreme minimum, it would be VASTLY more useful and VASTLY more widely applicable - as well as being equally easily measurable. It is perfectly reasonable to say that ignoring this fact is a damn-fool idea. It was and is. The fact that the information can be used, with unreliability and by an expert, does not make it a good thing for UK gardening purposes. Regards, Nick Maclaren, University of Cambridge Computing Service, New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email: Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679 |
American frost zones
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American frost zones
I live in the center of the US and am in zone 5. What that means to me is
that I can plant anything that wont die if exposed to colder than -20 degrees F ( I don't know what that translates to in Celsius , but if I am correct, 0 C = 32 F, and 30 C = around 80F). Looking at the zone map, parts of California, Arizona, and the southern states are zones 9 and 10. Although they might get an infrequent killing frost, I doubt that the ground would ever freeze. They can grow oranges, avocados and palm trees, without having to worry too much about the cold weather. Hope this helps. Good luck. Dwayne "tim" wrote in message ... "tim" wrote in message ... Does anyone have the translation of the usda hardiness frost zone keys which accompany american text on plants. I would be grateful if anyone could fill me in on the key. Thankyou Roger and Nick, most helpful info. |
American frost zones
.. | And the USDA zones are a damn-fool idea | | Now, now, Nick, temper, temper. The USDA zones were devised with | a specific purpose in mind, hardiness of *woody* That is true, and I wish people would stop doing it.///////////// Nick, is that an all inclusive statement.....meaning that we in the USA should stop using this valuable tool????????? Some of my most valuable gardening books are of English origin but I would never suggest chucking 'em out because they contain material of no value to the parts of the USA where it is colder than hell in the winter time and gardening, as you know it over there, does not exist......such utter nonsense and tripe as planting broad beans in the autumn months to give a head start for the following year or planting spring cabbage seedlings in the autumn months..........perhaps I should reconsider and consign those books to the scrap heap or the compost heap?????? HW. |
American frost zones
In article , "Anne Middleton/Harold Walker" writes: | | . | | And the USDA zones are a damn-fool idea | | | Now, now, Nick, temper, temper. The USDA zones were devised with | | a specific purpose in mind, hardiness of *woody* | | That is true, and I wish people would stop doing it.///////////// | Nick, is that an all inclusive statement.....meaning that we in the USA | should stop using this valuable tool????????? I should appreciate not being misquoted. Please do not repeat it. To remind you, here is the context that you removed: | That the system has been widely misapplied to other types of | plant material and in other places is not an inherent fault. That is true, and I wish people would stop doing it. Regards, Nick Maclaren, University of Cambridge Computing Service, New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email: Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679 |
American frost zones
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American frost zones
On Fri, 21 Feb 2003 10:01:23 GMT, "Anne Middleton/Harold Walker"
wrote: . | And the USDA zones are a damn-fool idea | | Now, now, Nick, temper, temper. The USDA zones were devised with | a specific purpose in mind, hardiness of *woody* That is true, and I wish people would stop doing it.///////////// Nick, is that an all inclusive statement.....meaning that we in the USA should stop using this valuable tool????????? Some of my most valuable gardening books are of English origin but I would never suggest chucking 'em out because they contain material of no value to the parts of the USA where it is colder than hell in the winter time and gardening, as you know it over there, does not exist......such utter nonsense and tripe as planting broad beans in the autumn months to give a head start for the following year or planting spring cabbage seedlings in the autumn months..........perhaps I should reconsider and consign those books to the scrap heap or the compost heap?????? HW. You have entirely omitted attribution of the quoted material. In a contentious thread like this one shows signs of turning into, careful attribution and quote-marking is a sine qua non, as well as being a courtesy. -- Rodger Whitlock Victoria, British Columbia, Canada |
American frost zones
In article , (Rodger Whitlock) writes: | On 21 Feb 2003 08:40:36 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) | wrote: | Rodger Whitlock writes: | | ...The USDA zones were devised with | a specific purpose in mind, hardiness of *woody* material in the | continental USA. | | Perhaps I am too stringent, but I regard anyone who invents such | a scheme without thinking of its potential for extension as being | a fool...at the very least they should have considered | its relevance to herbaceous crop plants. | | Not really (imo). The only important herbaceous crop that | over-winters, and for which hardiness is therefore an issue, is | fall-sown wheat, afaik. The other big grain crop grown in the US | is corn (maize), which is invariably sown in the spring. Winter wheat is woody? Boggle :-) More seriously, I agree that the vast proportion of the agricultural crops are not herbaceous, but they are not woody either, and the average extreme minimum is quite inappropriate. There are many, FAR better, measures for those, INCLUDING simple latitude! So I can assume that either they were living in some fantasy world or were thinking about the minority of perennial agricultural crops. While the majority of those are woody, it is NOT a dominating majority, not by any manner of means. Strawberries, asparagus and globe artichokes have been grown commercially and on a large scale in the USA for a long time, and there are a fair number of other crops that may have been. | And it may be that the deviser realized that a system suitable | for herbaceous material was impractical as their hardiness | depends on many other factors than just temperature, whereas the | hardiness of woody material (sc. fruit trees) is really dependent | only on the winter low temperature. Well, if that were true, it would be a justification for using the scheme, though NOT for claiming its generality. But it is not true. The survival of fruit TREES is dependent FAR more on the average daily minimum than the average extreme minimum - bark is quite a good insulator, you know! - especially as the former is FAR more closely correlated with how deeply the soil freezes. The confusion arises because, in the contiguous USA though not more generally, the correlation between the two is extremely high. The survival of fruiting branches is probably more dependent on the extreme low, but isn't the main issue anyway. The main issue is the frequency of late frosts and their effect on the flowers, as any fruit grower can tell you! And there are plenty of ways to measure that much more directly. | Horticultural material doesn't have enough economic importance to | count in this kind of study. Agreed. I was and am damning them for doing a bad job of what they set out to do, not what other people may claim. Regards, Nick Maclaren, University of Cambridge Computing Service, New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email: Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679 |
American frost zones
Pete The Gardener wrote:
On Thu, 20 Feb 2003 10:39:43 GMT, "Anne Middleton/Harold Walker" wrote: "Nick Maclaren" "Nick Maclaren" wrote in . And the USDA zones are a damn-fool idea anyway, as they measure ///////////////// to repeat Nick, it is a useful tool but not the only one. I don't find it to be much use, according to the USDA Zones I'm in zone 10/11 here in London, but there are very few plants from these zones that are worth trying. -- Pete The Gardener Hi Pete, There must be some misunderstanding here. Where did you get that info? IMHO, London is Z8/Z9: http://www2.dicom.se/fuchsias/eurozoner.html I think not even a sheltered garden in the center of Londen would be Z11. That zone would mean, essentially: no frost at any moment, the whole year through. So I'm not at all surprised Z10/Z11 plants are not happy outside, where you are... Regards, Roger. |
American frost zones
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American frost zones
On Sat, 22 Feb 2003 12:22:34 GMT, Roger Van Loon
wrote: Hi Pete, There must be some misunderstanding here. Where did you get that info? The RHS Dictionary. IMHO, London is Z8/Z9: http://www2.dicom.se/fuchsias/eurozoner.html This is probably true for much of London, though where my parents live I would say 7/8, but I live in South Kensington, in central London, and the climate is a fair bit different. I think not even a sheltered garden in the center of London would be Z11. That zone would mean, essentially: no frost at any moment, the whole year through. Most years we get either no frost or, at most, about half a degree of frost. This year has been an exception, we've had temperatures below freezing on about 8 or 10 nights, I think the worst was about -4C. We haven't had it that cold for at least 6/8 years. So I'm not at all surprised Z10/Z11 plants are not happy outside, where you are... Many Z10/11 plants will take short periods of freezing temps, what they wont take are long periods of cold, but not freezing, temps with loads of damp. -- Pete The Gardener A room without books is like a body without a soul. |
American frost zones
Pete The Gardener wrote:
On Sat, 22 Feb 2003 12:22:34 GMT, Roger Van Loon wrote: Hi Pete, There must be some misunderstanding here. Where did you get that info? The RHS Dictionary. Strange. I see in the 1992 edition of the RHS Dictionary of Gardening (ISBN 0-333-47494-5) they give Z8/Z9 for London, certainly not Z10/Z11. IMHO, London is Z8/Z9: http://www2.dicom.se/fuchsias/eurozoner.html This is probably true for much of London, though where my parents live I would say 7/8, but I live in South Kensington, in central London, and the climate is a fair bit different. I think not even a sheltered garden in the center of London would be Z11. That zone would mean, essentially: no frost at any moment, the whole year through. Most years we get either no frost or, at most, about half a degree of frost. This year has been an exception, we've had temperatures below freezing on about 8 or 10 nights, I think the worst was about -4C. We haven't had it that cold for at least 6/8 years. Yes, I heard of spots in Central London where you even have large Phoenix canariensis. So I'm not at all surprised Z10/Z11 plants are not happy outside, where you are... Many Z10/11 plants will take short periods of freezing temps, what they wont take are long periods of cold, but not freezing, temps with loads of damp. Still, then it would be useful to know that a plant is rated Z10/Z11 and not Z7, I think. -- Pete The Gardener A room without books is like a body without a soul. True, but my wife is always complaining that there are way too many books in all the rooms of our house, no space left :-) Regards, Roger. -- You're welcome to visit my gardening page: http://users.pandora.be/roger.van.loon/gardenp.htm |
American frost zones
In article ,
Rodger Whitlock wrote: On 21 Feb 2003 18:03:14 GMT, (Nick Maclaren) wrote: More seriously, I agree that the vast proportion of the agricultural crops are not herbaceous, but they are not woody either, and the average extreme minimum is quite inappropriate. There are many, FAR better, measures for those, INCLUDING simple latitude! Not really. If you look at a weather map of North America with the temperature bands colored (or the USDA zone map, for that matter!), you will see that they are *not* oriented east-west. Indeed, on the left coast, the bands run north-south rather than east-west. And in the south east, they run in a large curve that aproximately parallels the coast from Texas to New England. I suggest rereading what I said! What you say is quite correct, but irrelevant. The vast proportion of agricultural crops are grown as annuals, where it is the length of growing season and its cumulative heat and light that matters, and simple latitude is a MUCH more reliable indicator for those EVEN within the USA! Globally, of course, it beats the daylights out of USDA zones as an indicator of which agricultural crops are appropriate. Look at any good atlas and see - the bands hit you between the eyes. Wyman distinguishes the zone map devised at the Arnold Arboretum from that devised by the USDA. And, might I add, that his words imply that the USDA map was actually devised by the American Horticultural Society and only published by the USDA. Your disdain for it might not be too far off the mark after all. Interesting. Regards, Nick Maclaren, University of Cambridge Computing Service, New Museums Site, Pembroke Street, Cambridge CB2 3QH, England. Email: Tel.: +44 1223 334761 Fax: +44 1223 334679 |
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