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Old 08-06-2005, 01:16 AM
Registered User
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jun 2005
Posts: 12
Default new gardener, rocky soil

Good Morning,

My problem is: I am hoping to plant some grass and grow a good looking even lawn but previously the soil had rock cemented over it and over the years and after removing the cemented rock many small rocks have been mixed into the soil it also contain many pieces of small plastic, glass and metal. What is the quickest way to get rid of this? They aren't big rocks that you can pick up in handfulls, they are mainly small and mixed in with the earth, LOTS of rocks. Does it realy matter as long as i get rid of most of it? any ideas?

Any help would be greatly appreciated, more details below...




18yrs old, first attempt at gardening, trying to turn a garden that looks more like a forest/rubbish dump into a good looking garden.

I am a very new young gardener with a massive job on my hands. My great aunt's garder has been left un-touched for about 4 years now apart from a quick clear out about a year and a half ago, just flattening the weeds. On return about a week ago i found weeds with gigantic roots, average height of the weeds were about 6ft and the garden looked more like a forest. I managed to flatten most of it in about an hour or 2 although the 'tree-looking' weeds took longer, still digging a few i left in. Have now diverted my attention to lifting up all the rock slates as i feel it will be easier to just work my way through the whole lawn with these out the way and have managed to lift all the rocks up. The garden is about 20x5 meters. I have also just used 3 sachets of weedol2 weedkiller on the soil area (14x5) which is atleast 4x the amount i was supposed to as it just seemed to pour out too fast, next time ill use a lower concentration.
Anyway the plan is to turn this garden/forest into something that i can relax in. I am hoping to lay lawn on the top level soil (14x5 area), build a shed from scratch, build a rockery, cement new brick for the few steps, cement a wall on the lower ground to section off a small area about (.5x6) in which to grow veg or anything else i decide to and section off an area on the top lawn (.5x14) so i have a specific area to grow mainly flowers. Hmm what else. Also a seating area made of the rocks i take up about .5m out from the corner of the wall. Also thinking of installing a water feature in the middle, although I may have to settle for the bird bath i allready have. I am also hoping to install or build a barbeque and 4 hooks at the top of the garden tied to trees above on which i can suspend a waterproof sheet when needed.

So anyway it sounds massive but it's mostly for fun and im enjoying it. I mainly used a metal stick to demolish most of the weeds but am obviously now digging them up. I am 18years old and this is my first attempt at any real gardening.

What i am thinking is i will keep people on forums upto date on my progress (I have pictures if you wish to see) and if anyone cares or can be bothered to read it maybe they can give me tips along the way.

Anyway next steps are ripping up the rest of the cemented rocks, digging up any rubbish and weeds in the lawn and trying to lay some grass if i haven't contaminated the lawn with way too much weedkiller. With regards to laying the grass, once the soil is as clean as i can get it i am going to simply rake it, spread to the seeds (left to right, top to bottom) and rake it again and cross my fingers, any ideas on anything would be great.

Thanks again,

Oh, I am also painting an old bench, rigging up a washing line to my room on the 1st floor and possibly building a table.

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Old 08-06-2005, 07:10 AM
Jaques d'Alltrades
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The message
from mbwest contains these words:

Good Morning,


'Morning.

My problem is: I am hoping to plant some grass and grow a good looking
even lawn but previously the soil had rock cemented over it and over
the years and after removing the cemented rock many small rocks have
been mixed into the soil it also contain many pieces of small plastic,
glass and metal. What is the quickest way to get rid of this?


Apart from hiring a mechanical riddle, it means a lot of hard and
time-consuming work, I'm afraid.

Whereabouts are you? Is the rock natural, or old builders' rubble? Is
the area free-draining? Is the soil light and sandy, loam, or heavy, or
clay?

They
aren't big rocks that you can pick up in handfulls, they are mainly
small and mixed in with the earth, LOTS of rocks. Does it realy matter
as long as i get rid of most of it? any ideas?


Assuming the area is reasonably free-draining and the soil is not too
heavy, what I'd do would be to buy a large sieve/riddle and a length of
heavy black plastic. (Builders' merchant or good ironmonger.)

Dig a strip out and pile the spoil in front, making a heap of any roots
&c, which you can compost. I think you'll find details of composting in
the faq, http://www.nugget.demon.co.uk/MetaFAQ/index.html


/\
_______/ \_ ________
|_____________|

Pick out as many of the stones/rubble as you can and lob most of it in
the trench, collecting plastic and glass for disposal or recycling.

Lay the plastic sheet somewhere convenient, and sieve the soil on to it,
throwing the spoil in the trench. Cover spoil with sieved soil and move
the trench along, repeating the process until you have done the whole
area.

Seed it and rake it level. You may need to criss-cross the area with
stretched strands of black thread, old CDs, suspended, and other bird
deterrents, or persuade a cat to sit in the middle.

Any help would be greatly appreciated, more details below...


Yers. If you put as much energy into doing the job, you should have it
done tomorrow...

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
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Old 08-06-2005, 10:50 PM
nambucca
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"mbwest" wrote in message
...

Good Morning,

My problem is: I am hoping to plant some grass and grow a good looking
even lawn but previously the soil had rock cemented over it and over
the years and after removing the cemented rock many small rocks have
been mixed into the soil it also contain many pieces of small plastic,
glass and metal. What is the quickest way to get rid of this? They
aren't big rocks that you can pick up in handfulls, they are mainly
small and mixed in with the earth, LOTS of rocks. Does it realy matter
as long as i get rid of most of it? any ideas?

Any help would be greatly appreciated, more details below...




18yrs old, first attempt at gardening, trying to turn a garden that
looks more like a forest/rubbish dump into a good looking garden.

I am a very new young gardener with a massive job on my hands. My great
aunt's garder has been left un-touched for about 4 years now apart from
a quick clear out about a year and a half ago, just flattening the
weeds. On return about a week ago i found weeds with gigantic roots,
average height of the weeds were about 6ft and the garden looked more
like a forest. I managed to flatten most of it in about an hour or 2
although the 'tree-looking' weeds took longer, still digging a few i
left in. Have now diverted my attention to lifting up all the rock
slates as i feel it will be easier to just work my way through the
whole lawn with these out the way and have managed to lift all the
rocks up. The garden is about 20x5 meters. I have also just used 3
sachets of weedol2 weedkiller on the soil area (14x5) which is atleast
4x the amount i was supposed to as it just seemed to pour out too fast,
next time ill use a lower concentration.
Anyway the plan is to turn this garden/forest into something that i can
relax in. I am hoping to lay lawn on the top level soil (14x5 area),
build a shed from scratch, build a rockery, cement new brick for the
few steps, cement a wall on the lower ground to section off a small
area about (.5x6) in which to grow veg or anything else i decide to and
section off an area on the top lawn (.5x14) so i have a specific area to
grow mainly flowers. Hmm what else. Also a seating area made of the
rocks i take up about .5m out from the corner of the wall. Also
thinking of installing a water feature in the middle, although I may
have to settle for the bird bath i allready have. I am also hoping to
install or build a barbeque and 4 hooks at the top of the garden tied
to trees above on which i can suspend a waterproof sheet when needed.

So anyway it sounds massive but it's mostly for fun and im enjoying it.
I mainly used a metal stick to demolish most of the weeds but am
obviously now digging them up. I am 18years old and this is my first
attempt at any real gardening.

What i am thinking is i will keep people on forums upto date on my
progress (I have pictures if you wish to see) and if anyone cares or
can be bothered to read it maybe they can give me tips along the way.

Anyway next steps are ripping up the rest of the cemented rocks,
digging up any rubbish and weeds in the lawn and trying to lay some
grass if i haven't contaminated the lawn with way too much weedkiller.
With regards to laying the grass, once the soil is as clean as i can
get it i am going to simply rake it, spread to the seeds (left to
right, top to bottom) and rake it again and cross my fingers, any ideas
on anything would be great.

Thanks again,

Oh, I am also painting an old bench, rigging up a washing line to my
room on the 1st floor and possibly building a table.


--
mbwest



Go to a DIY store like Focus they sell sheets of 1/4 inch mesh about 2ft 6
by 3ft 6 and cost about 4

Make a solid tray frame work to attach this to using 4x1 timbers 2 of 2ft 6
length for short ends

and 2 pieces of timber 4ft 6 in for sides ( ie 1 ft extra for handles )

Thus making a large sieve with 2 handles that fits neatly on top of a
wheelbarrow

Then you can seive your soil to your hearts content to filter out the stones
etc

Later you can use the seive for screening compost etc


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Old 08-06-2005, 11:22 PM
Registered User
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jun 2005
Posts: 12
Default

First off - Thankyou very much for the reply and the help.

Can i not just cover the smaller stones, after getting rid of as many as possible, with some new soil and sow the grass into that.

Im in Westminster, London. The rock is not natural.
It is in a garden and it all runs down a drain which is known to become blocked.
Erm, as i say im a new gardener but most of the grass to me feels quite light and dusty.

I will try your suggestion with the large riddle, I did have that one on my mind.

Thanks for the details on composting, that was something i was curious about.

Are the birds really that much of a threat? Again, im a new gardener so im not sure on this stuff - should I/can I cover most of the seeds with the soil or do they need to sit on top?
Best time of the day to sow?

"Yers. If you put as much energy into doing the job, you should have it
done tomorrow..." - the grass takes atleast 14 days!

Thanks for the help I will have some pictures of the progress online soon.
  #5   Report Post  
Old 09-06-2005, 10:43 AM
Jaques d'Alltrades
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The message
from mbwest contains these words:

First off - Thankyou very much for the reply and the help.


Can i not just cover the smaller stones, after getting rid of as many
as possible, with some new soil and sow the grass into that.


No. Unfortunately, worm action can tend to bring stones to the top. I
remember (Coo! From 1949! When i was a boarding school we had what I was
told was a 'pebble bed'. You could rake off the pebbles and within a
couple of weeks, the surface was dotted with more.

Logically, I would have thought that the worms would bring soil to the
surface and tend to bury the stones deeper, but it doesn't work like
that. I think rain washes soil into the cavities made by worms, thus
underfilling, and (effectively) bringing the stones to the surface.

The trouble with too many stones near the surface of a lawn is that it
will dry out very quickly.

You could buy some topsoil and possibly, some spent mushroom compost and
spread that over the area, but that wouldn't be much less work.

ATM I'm removing a 'rockery' made (I presume) of soil removed from the
ground where the ablutions block was plonked years ago, and studded with
raw chunks of broken-up concrete. I'm taking the soil to a depth of
about a foot below ground level, spreading the soil in the front garden
and putting the 'rocks' in the resulting hole, along with rubble from
the chimneybreast excavations in the house. The resulting foundation
will be concreted over for a hard-standing in front of the
shed/motorcycle stable.

Im in Westminster, London. The rock is not natural.
It is in a garden and it all runs down a drain which is known to become
blocked.
Erm, as i say im a new gardener but most of the grass to me feels quite
light and dusty.


Hum. Buying topsoil wouldn't seem to be an easy option, and there aren't
many mushroom farms near Westminster. I fear it may mean hard work and
time. You can get mushroom compost in bags though, and here (in Norfolk)
the going price is about 50p for a big bag. Remember though, that this
will be rendeder to next-to-nothing in a few years by bacteria and
fungi, so a compost bin would be a good idea. Also, grass likes lime.

I will try your suggestion with the large riddle, I did have that one
on my mind.


Thanks for the details on composting, that was something i was curious
about.


Are the birds really that much of a threat? Again, im a new gardener so
im not sure on this stuff - should I/can I cover most of the seeds with
the soil or do they need to sit on top?
Best time of the day to sow?


Birds (especially house sparrows) will be delighted if they find you've
sown grass-seed, and believe me, if you have, they'll find it, even if
it's by accident to begin with. Then chirp gets round and every sparrow
for miles around will get to hear about it.

You can cover the seed, but not too deep. Ideally, you'd keep a pile of
soil aside, scatter the seed, then sieve the soil over it so no seed
shows. You may be lucky and fool the sparrows.

You can sow grass seed at any time of day (Or night) - the Rural Gods
don't venture into Town, so they'll never know.

"Yers. If you put as much energy into doing the job, you should have
it
done tomorrow..." - the grass takes atleast 14 days!


Thanks for the help I will have some pictures of the progress online
soon.


Good oh. I'll look forward to that.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/


  #6   Report Post  
Old 09-06-2005, 02:12 PM
Registered User
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jun 2005
Posts: 12
Thumbs up

thanks nambucca i think i'll give that a go.

but...

Can i not just cover the smaller stones, after getting rid of as many as possible, with some new soil and sow the grass into that.

&

Are the birds really that much of a threat? Again, im a new gardener so im not sure on this stuff - should I/can I cover most of the seeds with the soil or do they need to sit on top?
Best time of the day to sow?
and what about squirrels?

Thanks again,
Murray
  #7   Report Post  
Old 09-06-2005, 04:41 PM
Registered User
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jun 2005
Posts: 12
Cool

Thanks again for all those tips, i will take them on board. Off out into the garden now for some more hard work and good news:

The pics were uploaded to this site:

www.mmmmm165.plus.com/gardenpicsset1.htm

Bad news: I can't actually see them although it took me 20mins to upload.
Good news: here are the individual pics but no commentry or structure to them, they are just in order of when i took them:

http://www.mmmmm165.plus.com/gardenp...s/image002.jpg

http://www.mmmmm165.plus.com/gardenp...s/image004.jpg

http://www.mmmmm165.plus.com/gardenp...s/image006.jpg

http://www.mmmmm165.plus.com/gardenp...s/image008.jpg

http://www.mmmmm165.plus.com/gardenp...s/image002.jpg

http://www.mmmmm165.plus.com/gardenp...s/image004.jpg

http://www.mmmmm165.plus.com/gardenp...s/image006.jpg

http://www.mmmmm165.plus.com/gardenp...s/image008.jpg

http://www.mmmmm165.plus.com/gardenp...s/image010.jpg

Here are some notes to go with those pictures:

pic3: Just a picture of most of the rubble.

Pic4: There were three like this at the rear of the garden that had been left un-touched for over 18 months. You can imagine how big the rest of the tree/weed was.

Pic6: Aerial picture of the garden today (09/06/05 15:44). You can see another root that I have dug up in the top right of the picture.
The branches and leaves have been cleared from the top right of the picture and now I have half of the slabs ripped up from the garden.

Pic7: Here you can see the soil that was under the paving slabs. To me it looks fairly good from there but a closer inspection would reveal
a great deal of small rocks, glass and plastic and apparently my great great uncle buried a few animals in there including chickens, dogs
and cats. I did recently find 2 bones but Im pretty sure they are from my late dogs dinner Dont dig too deep.

Pic8: The bricks you can see at the top of the picture used to be a barbeque and to the right of it you can see one of the many garden
Tools I managed to break.

Pic9: What I hope my garden will resemble at the end of all my hard work. The bottom left area will now definitely be a brick wall and I will fill that enclosed area with soil probably for growing veg.
I know the sketch isnt very technical, it was just so I could keep a picture in my mind of what I am aiming for.

Sorry about having it all soo split up, i'll try and get it into a proper gallery/website soon.

Hope you like the pics and find them useful if you have any queries just let me know

Also remember there are no pics of what it originally looked like, don't be fooled by thinking pic1 was the start

I just tried that original site again:

www.mmmmm165.plus.com/gardenpicsset1.htm

and it appears to work, it just takes a long time to load as there are 4 pictures on it, there is also a link to the 2nd page at the bottom with the other 5 pics on it.

So maybe click the link and go and make yourself a cup of tea and when you come bac maybe it will bo done, although maybe not.

It appears to take ages on mine if it appears at all and im on 512k broadband.

Oh, i also have two video clips of a tour of the garden which i wil try and upload soon.
  #8   Report Post  
Old 11-06-2005, 02:35 AM
Maggie
 
Posts: n/a
Default

mbwest spake thusly
Good news: here are the individual pics but no commentry or structure
to them, they are just in order of when i took them:


For some reason, they're not forwarding properly, but I managed to
figure out the URLs of the images... great idea to keep a photo diary as
your garden progresses! Might have to do the same myself Am envious
of your flat section.

Looking forward to seeing more!
--
Maggie
  #9   Report Post  
Old 13-06-2005, 09:13 PM
Registered User
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jun 2005
Posts: 12
Angry

I have another problem. I went back into my garden today mainly to give it a little rake, get it ready for the lawn seeds and admire my work, mostly the latter but unfortunatly found myself down there for 3hrs diggin up masses of weeds and lots more to do still.

How much of a weed do you need to pull out to totally kill it?
Can you ever COMPLETELY rid a patch of weeds without the use of nuclear weapons?
If so how?
I brought Weedol2 but saw it said on the side "inactivated as soon as it touches the soil" and saw one on TV adverstised as killing all the roots, i naturally thought all weedkillers did that?!?
So basically i am hoping to lay this lawn soon but i dont want to have to worry about a constant supply of weeds oming up! Will they? How much needs pulling out? Should i but a stronger weedkiller (keep in mind i have a lot of cats that roam my garden).

Basically any tips on weed-control would be great. I' also going to have a good look around the forum for any tips elsewhere.

thanks again!
  #10   Report Post  
Old 14-06-2005, 04:27 PM
Jaques d'Alltrades
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The message
from mbwest contains these words:

I have another problem. I went back into my garden today mainly to give
it a little rake, get it ready for the lawn seeds and admire my work,
mostly the latter but unfortunatly found myself down there for 3hrs
diggin up masses of weeds and lots more to do still.


Ah. I presume you didn't examine the first six inches of soil for seeds...

Sorry, but this is par for the course.

How much of a weed do you need to pull out to totally kill it?


In the case of most of them, the stem and most of the root. If it's a
nettle, bindweed, horsetail, willow herb or similar, there will almost
certainly be underground runners which go deep into the soil, wait until
your back is turned, then send minions out to thumb their noses at you.

Can you ever COMPLETELY rid a patch of weeds without the use of nuclear
weapons?


Yes. One nuclear weapon is quite sufficient.

If so how?


Spray all weeds with Roundup or other glyphosate-containing weedkiller.
Wait for the next crop, then spray that. Then, sow your grass seed, and
pull up any weeds which still appear, until the grass is established.

Then you can spray the grass with a weedkiller which kills broad-leaved
weeds, I've forgotten the name of it. However, if you have any arable
farmers in Westminster, I'm sure they'll give you some of their empty
(plastic) cans or drums. There's usually enough for a year's
applications in half a dozen cans/drums, and you can cut the tops off
them and use them for other things later.

I brought Weedol2 but saw it said on the side "inactivated as soon as
it touches the soil" and saw one on TV adverstised as killing all the
roots, i naturally thought all weedkillers did that?!?


No, grammoxone-based weedkillers just kill the green areas, preventing
the plant from photosynthesising food. Shallow-rooted weeds die because
of it, but deep-rooted weeds like dandelions, bindweed, horsetail and
sometimes, nettles, have enough energy in their roots to make several
more excursions into the sun.

Any stray grammoxone or glyphosate weedkiller which reaches the soil
combines with clay/stone molecules and is rendered harmless. (Allegedly
harmless.)

So basically i am hoping to lay this lawn soon but i dont want to have
to worry about a constant supply of weeds oming up! Will they? How much
needs pulling out? Should i but a stronger weedkiller (keep in mind i
have a lot of cats that roam my garden).


Neither grammoxone nor glyphosate will harm the cats, once it's dried.
Rabbits and caterpillars might be quite terminally upset.

Basically any tips on weed-control would be great. I' also going to
have a good look around the forum for any tips elsewhere.


I'll ask a fiend if I can put a pic of his on me wibble...

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/


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Old 14-06-2005, 05:42 PM
Jaques d'Alltrades
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The message
from Jaques d'Alltrades contains
these words:
The message
from mbwest contains these words:



Basically any tips on weed-control would be great. I' also going to
have a good look around the forum for any tips elsewhere.


I'll ask a fiend if I can put a pic of his on me wibble...


http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/inky.htm

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
  #12   Report Post  
Old 14-06-2005, 05:53 PM
Sacha
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 14/6/05 16:27, in article ,
"Jaques d'Alltrades" wrote:
snip

I'll ask a fiend if I can put a pic of his on me wibble...


The devil you will!
--
Sacha
www.hillhousenursery.co.uk
South Devon
(remove the weeds to email me)

  #13   Report Post  
Old 14-06-2005, 11:48 PM
Registered User
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jun 2005
Posts: 12
Default

Thanks for that info,

It will be a great help!
  #14   Report Post  
Old 15-06-2005, 02:48 PM
Jaques d'Alltrades
 
Posts: n/a
Default

The message
from mbwest contains these words:

Thanks for that info,


It will be a great help!


Which info' in particular? (No attributions...)

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
  #15   Report Post  
Old 16-06-2005, 02:54 AM
Registered User
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Jun 2005
Posts: 12
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaques d'Alltrades
The message
from mbwest
contains these words:

I have another problem. I went back into my garden today mainly to give
it a little rake, get it ready for the lawn seeds and admire my work,
mostly the latter but unfortunatly found myself down there for 3hrs
diggin up masses of weeds and lots more to do still.

Ah. I presume you didn't examine the first six inches of soil for seeds...

Sorry, but this is par for the course.

How much of a weed do you need to pull out to totally kill it?

In the case of most of them, the stem and most of the root. If it's a
nettle, bindweed, horsetail, willow herb or similar, there will almost
certainly be underground runners which go deep into the soil, wait until
your back is turned, then send minions out to thumb their noses at you.

Can you ever COMPLETELY rid a patch of weeds without the use of nuclear
weapons?

Yes. One nuclear weapon is quite sufficient.

If so how?

Spray all weeds with Roundup or other glyphosate-containing weedkiller.
Wait for the next crop, then spray that. Then, sow your grass seed, and
pull up any weeds which still appear, until the grass is established.

Then you can spray the grass with a weedkiller which kills broad-leaved
weeds, I've forgotten the name of it. However, if you have any arable
farmers in Westminster, I'm sure they'll give you some of their empty
(plastic) cans or drums. There's usually enough for a year's
applications in half a dozen cans/drums, and you can cut the tops off
them and use them for other things later.

I brought Weedol2 but saw it said on the side "inactivated as soon as
it touches the soil" and saw one on TV adverstised as killing all the
roots, i naturally thought all weedkillers did that?!?

No, grammoxone-based weedkillers just kill the green areas, preventing
the plant from photosynthesising food. Shallow-rooted weeds die because
of it, but deep-rooted weeds like dandelions, bindweed, horsetail and
sometimes, nettles, have enough energy in their roots to make several
more excursions into the sun.

Any stray grammoxone or glyphosate weedkiller which reaches the soil
combines with clay/stone molecules and is rendered harmless. (Allegedly
harmless.)

So basically i am hoping to lay this lawn soon but i dont want to have
to worry about a constant supply of weeds oming up! Will they? How much
needs pulling out? Should i but a stronger weedkiller (keep in mind i
have a lot of cats that roam my garden).

Neither grammoxone nor glyphosate will harm the cats, once it's dried.
Rabbits and caterpillars might be quite terminally upset.

Basically any tips on weed-control would be great. I' also going to
have a good look around the forum for any tips elsewhere.

I'll ask a fiend if I can put a pic of his on me wibble...
All of that info was helpful.
Thankyou


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