In message , Kay Easton
writes
In article , Tony Morgan
writes
In message , Paul Kelly
writes

"Tony Morgan" wrote in message
...
In message , Paul Kelly
writes

Completely irrelevant. However, the thought does occur to me that the
reason you're having to order more clematis is perhaps because you have
lost previous plantings.


Actually I am buying and planting on behalf of clients - I'm happy to stake
my reputation on Rachel's plants and advice.

Fine. Just make sure you don't plant just before a wet spell :-)

Relying on others for your own reputation can be, IMHO, a recipe of
disaster in business.

As can be insisting on manufacturing all your supplies yourself as
opposed to obtaining them from good specialist suppliers.

If you buy-in the best widget in the world, then make a cock-up with the
installation, its your reputation (and sometimes more) that suffers, not
your supplier :-)
--
Tony Morgan

The message
from Tony Morgan contains these words:

In message , Paul Kelly
writes
Why are you challenging what has long been "best advice" for planting
clematis?

Clearly you do not bury all the mature stem but the site advice:

Plant deeper than the original container - not necessarily 2 or 3 inches
deeper, but as much as it takes to get at least one other set of leaf nodes
below the ground. We have done this since the plant was a cutting, and it
has been potted on at least three times since then. Do it once more!

is sound.

Then I'm afraid we must agree to disagree.

I've been growing clematis for 47 years, I can assure you that if you
plant a set of leaf nodes below the surface and you have a wet spell
within a week or so, then you can expect to get rot and lose the plant -
not necessarily but there's a good possibly..

I've always planted clematis deep for the same reasons Rachel has
given, and find they do very well; even though they invariably have a
wet spell soon after planting. I live in the extremely wet west of
Scotland; rainfall at least 70" pa and rising.

Janet.

If you buy-in the best widget in the world, then make a cock-up with the
installation, its your reputation (and sometimes more) that suffers, not
your supplier :-)
--
Tony Morgan

It pays to realise that planting advice given is always of a "one size fits
all" type, the fact that you have manage perfectly well for 47 years to
acheive success does not alter the fact that the majority of clematis grown
from cuttings benefit from deep planting, this whether it is wet or not, and
I certainly never think twice about burying new green stems and leaves.
Although I can not claim 47 years experiance, I suspect I have grown and
planted more clematis than you have, your comments were valid, it is just
that I do not think you should have rubbished the perfectly sound advice
being given, adding a note of caution would have been enough.

--
Charlie, gardening in Cornwall.
http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of National Plant Collection of Clematis viticella (cvs)

In article , Tony Morgan
writes
In message , Rachel Sullivan
writes
Plant it well & add a pipe going down to the roots (fill it with
stones) so you can pour water straight down to where it's needed.

No doubt para 4 in the Planting directions help Barkers sell more
clematis plants :-)

Well, if the plants they(nursery) sold kept keeling over, people would
stop buying from them(nursery), wouldn't they(people), and they(nursery)
would work up a fearfully bad reputation, wouldn't they(nursery) !!!!!!
And that, they(nursery) are *not* doing, by any means - they(nursery)
keep on supplying zillions of healthy clematis plants by following their
own advice - even if you do happen to disagree with it )))))
--
Jane Ransom in Lancaster.
I won't respond to private emails that are on topic for urg
but if you need to email me for any other reason,
put jandg dot demon dot co dot uk where you see deadspam.com

In message , Janet Baraclough
writes
I've been growing clematis for 47 years, I can assure you that if you
plant a set of leaf nodes below the surface and you have a wet spell
within a week or so, then you can expect to get rot and lose the plant -
not necessarily but there's a good possibly..

I've always planted clematis deep for the same reasons Rachel has
given, and find they do very well; even though they invariably have a
wet spell soon after planting. I live in the extremely wet west of
Scotland; rainfall at least 70" pa and rising.

Experts are divided as to what causes Clematis wilt (which seems to be
the underlying motive for deep planting).

The reason for the deep planting recommendation is that it is believed
by some (many?) to be due to insufficient water in the flowering season
- usually accompanied by a fungal infection (opinion is divided as to
which precedes which), as well as "insurance" in getting new growth if
wilt destroys the plant.

Its my view (shared by others) that its better to address the cause than
to adopt the "insurance" view of deep planting that can often cause
rotting of the stem if a long wet spell follows planting.

Clematis wilt (I've never ever experienced it myself) can, in my view,
be avoided by well watering in the flowering season. And if wilt appears
can invariably be rectified by the application of Benomyl (Benlate).

Clematis wilt invariably occurs in (or immediately before) the flowering
season, and by that time the root system is sufficiently developed to
regenerate the plant by the next season - even if the Benomyl doesn't
restore the plant that season.

IMHO more clematis are lost in the first season through rotting of
buried portions of the newly planted stem following wet periods
(especially in heavy or badly drained soil), compared with those that
are lost by wilt (which rarely occurs at planting time). This is why I
disputed the advice given.
--
Tony Morgan

The message
from Kay Easton contains these words:

In article , Tony Morgan
writes

Relying on others for your own reputation can be, IMHO, a recipe of
disaster in business.

As can be insisting on manufacturing all your supplies yourself as
opposed to obtaining them from good specialist suppliers.

Yay Kay, sock it to him :-)

Janet.

In message , Tony Morgan
writes

In message , Rachel Sullivan
writes

Plant it well & add a pipe going down to the roots (fill it with
stones) so you can pour water straight down to where it's needed.

No doubt para 4 in the Planting directions help Barkers sell more
clematis plants :-)

In this, regardless of the smiley, you are implying that Rachel is
giving bad advice to sell more plants.

1. That is ludicrous in the extreme.
2. You will note that their web site has much information for people who
will *never* buy plants from them - Temp. Zone info for those in North
America and the rest of the world, outside of the E.U., for example.
3. Your comment above is offensive. Since you have now been offensive,
then I'll continue.

Unless you plant with a little of the brown section at the bottom of
the stem above ground, you can get disease or rot. Also cut the bottom
out of a 3" or 4" pot and place upside down to keep the sun away from
the roots.

Rachel has already answered these comments quite adequately - and I note
that you have yet to provide a single authoritative reference for your
position.

What we actually find is that this is not uncommon in your case. You are
quite fond of pontificating about subjects, to appear to others as if
you are expert in them, when in actual fact you aren't.

Remember back to Jan 2001 when you said in demon.homepages.authoring
that NT4 could only read NTFS, amongst other tripe. To refresh your
memory it was in article:

news:

since what you spouted in it was almost totally wrong, I posted:

news:

in which you were comprehensively destroyed and never posted a follow-up

It's there on Google Groups for all to see.

Of course, you might consider that Grandad has more experience with
clematis than any of us is likely to achieve if we live to be a 100,
since he's propagated and grown 10s if not 100s of thousands of the
bloody things. You also might consider that T.H. Barkers have got, and
they've read from cover to cover, every major and minor work on
clematis. You might also consider that Rachel herself is considered an
expert by some very qualified people - I can bore you with the detail,
but I won't.

You, of course, know better. Just like you knew better that NT4 couldn't
read a Fat16 file system. Bwahahaha!

I'm sure that the rest of us mere mortals sleep better at night knowing
that we don't have to live our lives with your attitude.
--
Tony - Rachel's partner
Who extends his apologies to the rest of the regular denizens of u.r.g
And knows bugger all about clematis - but a lot about Rachel, NT4 & Win2K

In article , Tony Morgan
writes
In message , Janet Baraclough
writes
I've been growing clematis for 47 years, I can assure you that if you
plant a set of leaf nodes below the surface and you have a wet spell
within a week or so, then you can expect to get rot and lose the plant -
not necessarily but there's a good possibly..

I've always planted clematis deep for the same reasons Rachel has
given, and find they do very well; even though they invariably have a
wet spell soon after planting. I live in the extremely wet west of
Scotland; rainfall at least 70" pa and rising.

Experts are divided as to what causes Clematis wilt (which seems to be
the underlying motive for deep planting).

There is certainly some discussion about this, but the accepted view is
that wilt, *also known as stem rot* is caused by a "a vulnerability to a
number of fungi of which Ascochyta clematidina (Phoma clematidina Thüm.)
and Coniothyrium clematidis-rectae have been identified". [1] Most
particularly, Phoma clematidina, but other phoma have been found in
wilted clematis stems. Small flowered hybrids and species are very
resistant to the virus.

The reason for the deep planting recommendation is that it is believed
by some (many?) to be due to insufficient water in the flowering season
- usually accompanied by a fungal infection (opinion is divided as to
which precedes which), as well as "insurance" in getting new growth if
wilt destroys the plant.

A plant under stress is a vulnerable plant. If you starve your plant of
water, it will be more susceptible to disease & bugs. Planting deep
does, indeed, give you a considerable measure of 'insurance' because of
the growth habit of hybrid clematis. If you don't have any leaf nodes
under the soil, if anything should happen to the top of the plant (not
just wilt), the dormant nodes will shoot. Indeed, if clematis didn't
like being planted deep from the cutting stage onwards, you couldn't
propagate them in the first place. Furthermore, if you didn't bury the
stem with buds, you wouldn't get multi-stemmed plants. It is a very
good long-term survival strategy.

So, to put it simply, if you have no buried leaf nodes & you lose the
top of the clematis (for whatever reason), your plant is to all intents
and purposes dead. Hybrid clematis cannot shoot from the roots
(although atragenes can). Oddly enough, the roots will continue to grow
for years, but there will be no top growth.

It is believed that wilt-virus (easier to spell than the Latin) enters
the plant through cracked or damaged stems & leaves and we know from our
own experience that it always works up the plant, never down. It
appears to block the stem and prevents water being taken up through the
system. The nodes you bury will be safe - the plant above ground is
not. If you catch it quickly enough, it is possible to strike cuttings
from a clematis affected by wilt & have perfectly healthy plants.

Its my view (shared by others)

Whom?

that its better to address the cause than
to adopt the "insurance" view of deep planting that can often cause
rotting of the stem if a long wet spell follows planting.

Addressing the cause is the obvious solution which is why deep planting
is recommended as well as planting well with plenty of food & water in
order to create a healthy plant. As we all know, a healthy plant is a
disease resistant plant.

And about these 'long wet spells' you speak of? We live in the UK -
it's hardly a rare occurrence for most of us.

Clematis wilt (I've never ever experienced it myself) can, in my view,
be avoided by well watering in the flowering season.

If you've never experienced it, how do you know?

And if wilt appears
can invariably be rectified by the application of Benomyl (Benlate).

No it can't. As any fule no, Benlate was banned in the UK & the US some
years ago. There is no useful 100% chemical prevention for wilt and, in
spite of what you seem to believe, Benlate didn't fix it either.
Systemic fungicides may help - but not much.

Clematis wilt invariably occurs in (or immediately before) the flowering
season, and by that time the root system is sufficiently developed to
regenerate the plant by the next season - even if the Benomyl doesn't
restore the plant that season.

The root system can't regenerate anything if there are no shoots to
regenerate from. And wilt, generally speaking, affects only one group
of clematis - some of the early large flowered hybrids. And it doesn't
affect them all that much. Often, what appears to be wilt, is something
entirely different. The plant being battered by wind, slugs or mice
eating through the stems, etc.

Benomyl or any other fungicide does not *restore* the plant. It has
nothing to do with whether the plant will grow again or not. But the
buried leaf nodes have *everything* to do with it.

IMHO more clematis are lost in the first season through rotting of
buried portions of the newly planted stem following wet periods
(especially in heavy or badly drained soil), compared with those that
are lost by wilt (which rarely occurs at planting time). This is why I
disputed the advice given.

But you're not supposed to plant them in heavy, badly drained soil.
They don't like it. Basically, they drown. Unless it is a marsh or
water plant adapted to that environment, if your soil is waterlogged and
heavy, with no oxygen, your plant can't breathe.

You are disputing advice that is tried and tested not just by me, but
the whole clematis industry, for generations past and whilst I agree
with Charlie in that advice has to be a 'fits all' basis, people often
break the 'rules' successfully. Nevertheless, these are exceptions, not
norms. I know of clematis armandii growing on a North wall in the
Pennines - but it's not a position I would recommend for general
planting as I know of many more that have failed in similar
circumstances.

The authority for my information on planting depth comes from: Graham
Stuart Thomas, Christopher Lloyd, Barry Fretwell, Christopher Grey-
Wilson, Raymond Evison, Mary Toomey, Malcolm Oviatt-Ham, Ruth Gooch,
Sheila Chapman, Dr.John Howells, Everett Leeds, Geoff Hamilton (bless) -
they *all* recommend deep planting, most particularly for hybrids.
Every clematis nursery in Britain says the same. So does the British
Clematis Society & the International Clematis Society.

I have not read, anywhere, that planting clematis with no extra depth is
a recommended practise, so please list your sources of information
(other than yourself, of course).

I mentioned your interesting theory to Grandad, who has grown more
varieties of clematis for a lot longer than you. It made him laugh -
but he was not amused to hear of your implication that our advice (and
therefore the advice of every clematis nursery) is deliberately
misleading in order to sell more plants. The only printable thing he
said was 'even a fool can be thought a wise man ... if he keeps his
mouth shut'.

[1] Dr. John Howells' Work on Stem Rot (Clematis Wilt)
--
Rachel
Clematis Web Site
http://www.ukclematis.co.uk/

"Tony Wright" wrote in message
...
Tony - Rachel's partner
Who extends his apologies to the rest of the regular denizens of u.r.g
And knows bugger all about clematis - but a lot about Rachel, NT4 & Win2K

No apology needed!

Well said!

pk

I'm sure that the rest of us mere mortals sleep better at night knowing
that we don't have to live our lives with your attitude.
--
Tony - Rachel's partner
Who extends his apologies to the rest of the regular denizens of u.r.g
And knows bugger all about clematis - but a lot about Rachel, NT4 & Win2K

Thanks for all that Tony, I thought we were dealing with someone miss-guided
not a time served twit!

--
Charlie, gardening in Cornwall.
http://www.roselandhouse.co.uk
Holders of National Plant Collection of Clematis viticella (cvs)

In article ,
says...
--
Tony - Rachel's partner
Who extends his apologies to the rest of the regular denizens of u.r.g
And knows bugger all about clematis - but a lot about Rachel, NT4 & Win2K

Nicely put. I was working through the thread and working up to a flame.

You saved my flaming off on it. I've watched a few clematis wilt through
my bad planting and lack of care in Surrey. The ones we have in
Leicester are well planted, didn't wilt and are budding up nicely.

geek Did he get confused about FAT16 and FAT32?/geek

Warwick-- Good sysadmin with 15 years experience, novice gardener with a
mere 7 years.