Hi Lee:
I don't disagree with you. Although it may not seem like it, I do realize we
all have to be practical, and use what we have available to us. I know not
many ponders have scopes/are trained to use them.
My point was there are many clubs out there, and even nurseries/aquarium
stores, with very experienced folks who can help out with the diagnostic end
of things, many of whom won't charge a penny for their help...
I also agree meds are improving, but use of antibiotics still carry risks,
not only the development of resistance, but sensitivity on the part of folks
using them. (I have seen people with allergic reactions to antibiotics that
have never have taken them, but had contact with them only when they
administered them to others.. the last one happened to be a vet with a major
reaction to the quinalones (floxin/cipro, etc). she was using to treat
animals.)
I don't disagree they should be used when there is an indication, but it is
always a risk vs. benefit decision.
BUT:
You've just given me an idea of a project we can all take on.. to encourage
our local pond nursery/aquarium store experts to purchase a scope (which
they should have when dealing in fish anyway), and help folks who are
willing to bring their fish in with simple diagnostics.
It doesn't take much skill to learn to do scrapings, and view them, while
looking at a color chart of the common parasites..
Maybe we could ALL take a minute and mention that next time we are visiting
our favorite local fish business??
There is no question that gravel covering plant soil, etc can harbor
parasites. So why treat only the fish, and not the pond?
My thought on that is that you will always find unwelcome organisms of all
types in an outside pond, even after PP or other "sterilizing" treatments..
they invariably return.. you can never totally eliminate them..
Fish have a natural resistance to them, or they would continuously be
infected, by something or the other.
I have found over the years that 98% of the problem with disease in an
established pond, is either due a change in water quality that wasn't picked
up, or introduction of new plants/fish without proper quarantine.
As far as "shotgun medicine", I could go on and on about medical
professionals who routinely do that to their human patients.. that's a
battle I may not see resolved during my career, but I do see things starting
to improve.
I also understand (all too well) the frustration of trying to save a living
organism, when it is obviously diseased and getting worse, and there doesn't
seem to be a way to stop the process. Trust me on that.
Later,
Greg


"Lee Brouillet" wrote in message
...
Greg, while I agree with you that one should reserve indescriminate
bombing
of the pond as a last resort, there are many people that don't have the
ability to scrape and scope, so their ability to properly identify and
diagnose their specific problem(s) is limited, at the very least. A fish
breaching the surface could merely be jumping for joy (or that tasty fly
buzzing by), or it could be lousy with flukes. The little guy huddled on
the
bottom with his fins clamped could be new and scared, or it could be
crawling with costia. *If the water parameters are in line*, and the fish
is
jumping/flashing frequently, then something is wrong. Lacking the
resources
to define the problem, a shotgun approach is the only one available. New
drugs are becoming available all the time, replacing the more dangerous
drugs previously utilized. For instance, Fluke Tabs, the "standard" for
many
years is no longer available on may websites because of its dangerous side
effects. It has been replaced by SupaVerm (koi only) or Prazi, which is
even
safer and can be used in a mixed population pond. The treatment(s) I
linked
to are the "latest and greatest" on the market, replacing drugs that were
definitely more hostile. They don't even require that the filtration be
by-passed: it's that safe. And they eradicate a multitude of "sins".

Salt is relatively benign, but at doses strong enough to help, plants die.
Remove the plants, and the chances are good that the pathogen goes with
it,
only to be reintroduced when the plants are returned to the pond. Further,
it takes weeks of water changes to get the salt back out: and if the salt
remains in the water and does NOT do the trick, then other doors are
closed
regarding treatment (i.e. any formalin based medication, to name one).
Meanwhile, the fish are dying.

To me, it's a Catch 22: damned if you do and damned if you don't. When I
first started, I watched my fish die because I didn't know what to do, and
couldn't find anyone that could help. Even a DAY lost while I was waiting
for someone to "get back to me" meant more death. I would have rather
killed
them TRYING to do something to help them than stand by and doing NOTHING
while they all died while I was paralyzed with fear.

I wish everyone had a microscope and learned how to use it, but that's not
going to happen. Even if a scrape was done, by the time you could get to a
scope at the Dr.'s office or the local school, provided they would allow
you
the use of a scope, the sample is no longer viable.

Again, I agree with you that treating the specific problem is MUCH better
than shotgun - if you have the means to identify it. If you don't have
that
means, then go for the wide spectrum approach to ensure that as much as
possible is covered while you stand the chance to protect at least some of
your pets. I DO NOT subscribe to this as a prophylactic approach, just
when
you know "something is wrong", and you don't know what it is.

Lee



"Gregory Young" wrote in message
.. .
Glad the water tests were all normal.. usually water conditions are the
precipitating factors for disease, as fish maintained in good water
quality
are actually very resistant to disease.
Salt can still kill quite a few parasites! 0.3% was used for years to
treat
most parasites (not all). 0.2% is too low as a treatment level....
Levels of .6% may be needed due to the increasing frequency of salt
resistant parasites we are finding.
At that level, you would negatively impact your pond's biofilter (the
nitrite reducing component), not to mention your plants, so you would
want
to net the fish out (a very simple process), and treat them in a
separate
container.
I would never, never recommend that anyone ever indiscriminately throw
drugs/antibiotics. etc into the picture, (especially into a whole
pond!),
without a working diagnosis.
You need to know what it is that you are treating, not to mention the
fact
that many of those agents can negatively impact your biofilter.
Keep us posted on how you make out,
Greg