In article , dave weil
wrote:

On 12 Jun 2003 08:28:35 -0500, (lms) wrote:

In article ,
says...


Well, I cheated. It's a climbing Fairy, of course. I had a rosarian
over to the house last week taking that possible white sport that I
recently posted about and she said she didn't even know that there was
a climbing sport of Fairy. And she said she asked several people at a
recent Birmingham (maybe) show and none of *them* had ever heard of
one either. So, I guess this plant isn't as widely known as I assumed
that it was.

I've heard of it. One of our kitties died a few years back and I buried her,
and I think later that same day--it was winter--I was at the hardware store
and saw this totally bedraggled The Fairy overwintering in a pot outside,
you know the kind, so I planted that thing as a memorial right where the
digging had become easy? So it came spring and The Fairy forgot all about
its
little pot prison.

I've been watching this one cane of a rose I grow for quite some time--
the rose is Vigilance, it's a white sport of Jeanne LaJoie, a much-heralded
climbing pink mini. It grows very much differently from J LaJ, at least
here, it's a mounder instead of a climber.
http://www.aoc.nrao.edu/~mstephen/clvig8x6.jpg
You can see the cane I'm talking about, it's real obvious. I just don't know
what to make of it and I'm lazy too, basically. If it is, it is, and cool.

That looks cool. That's actually the sort of form of rose that I like
- mounding. Not that I have any at my home yet.

Well, you yourself talked about big/catalog appeal being important in
the scheme of things. Frankly, there's big (when it comes to blooms -
probably important in a lot of peoples minds) and big when it comes to
plant structure (hardly important in an HT - when was the last time
you saw a picture of a 10 ft + HT with little foliage and no blooms in
a catalog).

their biz is, of course cash, and mine's strictly entertainment.

Which was my point in pointing out you using catalogs to support your
viewpoint, when, in actuality, it runs sort of counter to what you
seem to find cool in roses.

granted,
few people would call it idyllic, but then, few people would also tell me
how ugly it is, even if it is, right? when you said that, I thought somebody
had hit the rewind button. and yadda yadda yadda.

"Kinda ugly", remember? chuckle

This sort of goes back to your conversation about my Papa Meilland,
which I said was growing too tall to really enjoy. To me, HTs are all
about the bloom, not the plant itself. And when the blooms get too
high to gaze upon, it starts being less appealing to me.

Don't doubt that I find your Mr. Lincoln most impressive. On my
property, it would look stupid - which is why I have to keep a firm
hand on any roses that I grow. My Mr. Lincoln will be trimmed to stay
no more than about 9 feet tall, and this won't hurt the plant at all,
nor will it feel like it's being repressed or marginalized. Right now,
this two month old (in the ground) Mr. Lincoln already has a bud
that's at four feet. It sits by the porch, so its utility will be to
cover the opening of the porch as well as adding some fragrance to the
atmosphere of the porch. I'm hoping that I can keep some shorter bloom
growth going. If it ends up looking like Papa Meilland has been, I
might move it out in the lawn and let it soar to the heavens like
yours has. since everthing I've read about Mr. Lincoln puts it at 4 -
7 feet, I'll feel a bit cheated if it ends up being an overachiever
like yours, since i bought it for a specific place and for a specific
purpose.

It certainly looks like it's going to be a pretty damn vigorous plant.

an interesting little development today. My longest longtime bud, the best
man at both my weddings, Mr. Wargames, has ended up in Seattle, where he is
from, and the house he bought has about 30 rose bushes. A few weeks back he
told me how jazzed he was at this. (He's been here many times, knows about
the jungle) Well today guess what, he sent me a pic of Mr. Lincoln. I'll
withhold my comments on his pic cause he might someday get wind of rgr
but in any case, suffice it to say he was pumped about it.
Also sent me a pic of this 'white' rose, which he has already evidently dug
up and relegated to the back yard--didn't know what it was but I'm pretty
sure
it was Margaret Merrill. Now *those were very pretty. Reminded me of this
thread, almost to a T.
So I gave him the link for the Mr. Lincoln and without so much as saying a
word about it, I told him to write me back and tell me what his reaction was
to
this pic. I'll let you know. hahahahaha
I looked at it again btw. From about 5 feet up it's got plenty of those
earliest of early red red leaves. So basically, I'd say that was just about
the right amount of nakedness and in perfect proportion to the rest of the
plant. heheh

You should take a pic of it when it's actually in full bloom. Maybe
I'd chance my mind about it. On a property like yours, maybe being
able to step back 20 feet to take in the whole view would chnce my
mind about structure vs. bloom.

With my Papa (and that ID is now in question because the rosarian lady
said that she didn't think it had enough scent for PM), it's hard to
get a view from my flat property that allows the blooms to shine. It
looks like a torch with a tiny flame on top.:

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/ddweil2/PMaybe.jpg

Fortunately, taking the blooms with their 2 1/2 foot long stems, has
automatically shorted the plant considerably. Now, if I could just get
rid of the black spot that has just this year hit it, I'd be happy.

For me, big would be important in a bush-type rose, but of little
significance in an HT. I have a plant that combines the both of both
worlds though, and that's Aloha. It definitely doesn't have an HT
appearance in the bush form that it takes in my yard.

Aloha's an unusual bird--most non-sport climbers are called Large Flowered
Climbers, but that one's classified a Climbing HT. Never grown it.

And I've never seen a pic of it grown as a climber. All of the pics
I've seen of it have been as a bush. It certainly does look good as a
huge bush, although it's a Japanese Beetle magnet. And mine has had a
problem with blackspot the last couple of years.

Mine is sort of like your Mr. Lincoln - it's pretty awe inspiring when
it looks good, i.e. first flush. It's a traffic stopper.

Frankly, I don't really care all that much for HTs in general, other
than the fact that I have a few varieties that make good arrangements
in vases and are eye-catchers when in bloom. Otherwise, I think that
most of the time, they're pretty ugly plants. I much prefer things
that have more visual interest in addition to the blooms, i.e.
structure and foliage.

yo tambien. and visual interest, well I still most definitely think Mr.
Lincoln as I know it, qualifies. Very few things about the plantation here
are orthodox.

And, since that's to your liking, it's a good thing.

I thought that dissing a whole class of "follow-on" Peaces was pretty
ascerbic. Ballistic? Almost. The followup to my post certainly was
borderline ballistic.

ok, sorry. Dave, I've been through the Peace thing a few times. Would you
care to speculate on the Commemorative Rose for the war just 'ended'?

How about World's Policeman?

Jackass works for me. Congress Abdicated. Fabricated WMD. Fox's War.
What the hell are we going to call a rose named after an indefinite period?
I just think of these J$P guys rubbing their hands together every time they
bring out the F-117s.
I'm not so enthralled with Peace that I don't see wasted dastardly examples
but
I see that with just about all roses.

Frankly, my impression of the regular Peace is based on the examples
I've seen at the two rose shows that I've attended. They looked like
those powder puff things that women used to use.

Even *my* Desert Peace sometimes makes me gag g.

Old Garden Roses, for the most part, and for some reason, do not have this
propensity to sway so far either way from the average blossom.

I like 'em. Mainly because i find the form of the plant more "natural"
looking (for the most part).

I think it's weird that you freak out over the name of a plant that
has just as good of structure *and* more vivid colors than your two
favorite Peace plants. You rave over the variation in colors in Peace
and yet it can't hold a candle to the variations and depth of color
that Desert Peace offers. And Chicago Peace only comes close, from the
fictures I've seen.

fictures, I like it. And I don't disbelieve you.

I liked it too when I saw it.

usage doth a word make, it's getting used.



Maybe you need to embrace your feminine side.

I embrace my feminine side plenty enough, I'm growing five clitoria this
season.

You might try interacting with them.

They're not big enough yet.

That's why you have to interact with them. They get bigger that way.

Looked at them yesterday. They're growing.

Now that the foreplay is over, time to get to it.

I don't know how you make this leap. But, for the record, I now get
that you were talking tongue in cheek. I *really* didn't know that,
since most of the bushes that you've posted here don't resemble that
in the least. And since you seem opposed to regular shape in roses, I
thought that you might have thought of that as a pruned big yew with
blooms.

I have a yew tree, same size as Sunsprite, they're basically twins, nope,
no
confusion.

Can't tell if you take my point.

I don't know which kinda yew tree you're talking about.

I'm talking about those trimmed yews that you see around. There's one
at the local library. It's trimmed to almost a perfect globe. A globe
with a 6 foot diameter. That's what put Cass' picture in mind of a yew
type "French garden"- type highly pruned hedge plant.

My yews are trimmed into a straight hedge shape.

I have the one that
looks like a succulent from the ground up to about 7 feet now, the thought
of a pruned one of these is like totally foreign to my brain.

Well, I'd say that yews are mostly grown with more formal shapes. At
least, that's how you seem to see them around (you being a universal
you). I have to keep my trimmed straight across or my porch would
disappear.

I'd say that growing them like you do is very rare. Of course, then
you have the other extreme - think Edward Scissorhands...

but no, absolutely not, that's what roses are supposed to do--right now there
are 2 hundred foot double-rowed walls and 1 50 foot wall of roses, solid gd
roses, and growing together most dangerously. If I don't do something soon,
there's going to be this 100 fffoot wall with one weird side that's 40 or
50
feet wide. A battle to the death, take no quarter, that's what it seems
they're doing.
I don't have many roses that are lucky enough to stand alone, full-sun like
that. Cl. Cecile Brunner's one. Huge mound, solid blooms.

I'm hoping that mine will end up like that. The dead sugar maple that
it's growing on will eventually collapse in on itself, probably in the
next three years..

I guess I
could count the Raz Ice, Nevada, Foetida Bicolor, Dortmund, and Carefree
Wonder mound as kinda like that. In any case that one's where I've always
lived, here. One of these units, Nevada, was once an ARS Rose of the Month.
Never mind that someone was in a bind and needed something quick, but just
the
same...
That person's actually been to the house. stayed in Socorro overnight.
Hasn't been here lately though. A tree freak might like the evolution since
then but I have mixed feelings about things which affect about half the gd
roses. Even though I'm a tree freak. Hell I have a sugar maple on the north
side of the house, shoots straight up bout 30 feet now. Had 2 Crimson King
Maples at different times, you simply wouldn't believe what the sun did to
those leaves. Stunning, that spring red, but man, pure torture after that.
Have all the common fruit trees. My fave tree is the Dawn Redwood, it's on
its
way.

I was really disappointed the first spring in myhouse when the sugar
maple in the front yard didn't do anything but stand there deader than
Wild Bill Hickock. At least I can't shoulder the blame. That's when
the decision had to be made - take it down? It was small enough that I
could have easily done it myself. Nope - plant Cecile Brunner Cl.
there. Natural arbor. Now it almost looks like a bloomin' tree.

what would johnny cochran say?

Who's "Johnny" Cochran?

hahaha. oman. he was oj's lawyer. oj simpson. heheh.

Ohhhh, Johnnie...

chuckle

Sorry. Didn't mean to offend by using the word "dealing".

Heck, I'm just a novice when it comes to roses. My garden's only in
its 3rd year. Coincidentally, that's when I bought my house. If it
weren't for the big 40 year old Aloha bush in the front yard, I might
not be have become enamored with roses.

I have a 40 year old rose, actually 42, Girl Scout. It was born and bred
a runt and it's a runt today. Besides the one that came from this one and
is
now growing in the world's greatest Rose Garden, it's the only known specimen
in the world, although I'm positive it's still growing somewhere, and
probably
even lots of places, but the odds of it remaining anonymous are growing
greater
daily. If someone out there is still growing this rose, they have never
been
on a computer. I get several mails each spring from Girl Scout leaders
and former Girl Scouts looking for this rose. One of em told me they had
a big group of Girl Scout Rosers, and they be doing the network thing looking
for this rose, and to no avail.
It's so surprising, almost unconscienable, that the Girl Scouts of America
allowed this rose to just disappear. My mom was a Girl Scout leader, got
this
rose from The Troops. heheh. 1961.
guess that'll do it for this one, man.

Actually, I don't know how old the Aloha is. The 92 year old lady who
lived across the street since 1918 and who passed away about a year
ago, claimed that that bush had been there since she was a small girl.
Great, except that Aloha wasn't "invented" until 1949. However,
everyone in the neighborhood says the same thing - "I can't remember
that bush *not* being there". so, I'll just be conservative and say 40
years...

Shame about Girl Scout. Is it a nice looking rose? Is it worth saving
as the namesake of the Girl Scouts (it's one of your busted links,
unfortunately).

It's certainly worth saving on its own merits, but maybe you could get
the Girl Scouts involved in getting someone like J&P, Weeks or Moore
to produce the plant.

PS, the rosarian took some of my Aloha pollen to experiment with some
hybridization (don't know what she's planning). She already
successfully raised 4 plants from cuttings, which she sold at the
local show. Fortunately, my boss bought one of them, so I'll be able
to track its growth (and he's going to grow it as a climbing plant
against his new house, so hat will be fun). He was a bit annoyed last
year when the only blooms that he got all balled. This year, he's more
pleased. He *won't* be pleased to be picking off the beetles though.

m

oh, almost forgot. you gave me a list of busted links, thanks for that.

No prob. Figured you want to address that.

the problem is, the list of pics (from which pic to which pic) haven't existed
on the page for quite some time.
Someone else recently sent me a mail describing the same problem.
Anyone knows what causes this? I'm going to have to ask around today.

Finally, as a totally irrelevant aside, there's a new KIA Sorento
commercial (talk about the name of a car that *seems* to mean
something, but is actually just the name of a town in IL) that has
some background music that, when I'm on the computer in the other
room, makes it sound like my phone is ringing in the background.